Track bike AFR - 600RR.net
Exhaust & Fuel Delivery Tips on how to get the most out of your bike

 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-25-2012, 05:09 PM Thread Starter
Training Wheel Hero
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 20
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Track bike AFR

I have track bike 2009 RR
I installed Bazzaz Z-Fi , Z-AFM , Ten Kate intake (direct air flow) and leovince full exhaust
Bazzaz stock target AFR set to 13.0 i didnt feel performance increase
What AFR i must set for track bike

Thanks in Advance
kantarserkan is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 10-29-2012, 05:51 PM
Knee Dragger
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Minnesota-AKA Frozen hell
Posts: 101
Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
just remember stoic is at 12-1, I like to be a tad lean
Screechers is offline  
post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 10-29-2012, 06:11 PM
Too short to drag knee.
 
makct04's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 6,405
Thanks: 374
Thanked 223 Times in 190 Posts
Feedback Score: 11 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by Screechers View Post
just remember stoic is at 12-1, I like to be a tad lean
Isn't it supposed to be 14.7-1 or am I just delusional? Must be 'Sandy' getting to me....

LRRS/CCS AM #521

makct04 is offline  
post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-06-2012, 03:25 AM
Moto GP Racer
 
fallingbomb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 3,183
Thanks: 108
Thanked 162 Times in 138 Posts
Feedback Score: 3 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by makct04 View Post
Isn't it supposed to be 14.7-1 or am I just delusional? Must be 'Sandy' getting to me....

Stoic is 14.7

2007 CBR600RR -- CVMA #270 -- Pictures -- Build Thread
fallingbomb is offline  
post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 12:45 AM
Vendor
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Austin, TX y'all
Posts: 2,465
Thanks: 6
Thanked 181 Times in 148 Posts
Feedback Score: 12 reviews
stoic is 14.7 but it has NOTHING to do with tuning. The person that got people to believe that has something to do with tuning read wikipedia and didn't fully understand it. You can tune around stoic at idle with pretty much zero load on the engine, but the minute you get a load on it you better give it a lot more fuel then stoic.

13.0 or 13.2 is what most people tune a bike to if you want good power and a safe tune that won't damage the engine over time. As you get in the lower rpm's you can lean it a tad if you want, but you will barely gain any mileage for fuel economy and remember you're just guessing on what is actually safe. IMO just tune to 13.0 or 13.2 across the bandwith and you'll have good power and a safe tune.
motomummy is offline  
post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 06:40 AM
AMA Supersport Racer
 
VT733's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 743
Thanks: 2
Thanked 36 Times in 34 Posts
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
^Thanks for the clarification mm!! Been wondering this myself.

'08 GRAFFITI
VT733 is offline  
post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 08:23 AM
Lifetime Premium
 
Minx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Outside of Philly
Posts: 688
Thanks: 31
Thanked 101 Times in 88 Posts
Feedback Score: 4 reviews
Mummy,

Would you like to share your knowledge on the subject as to why a 13.0/13.2 is safer than 14.7?

-Minx

My Modification Memoir - GOLDEN EYES
FS: 07+ Stock Exhaust + Heat Shield ($75)
FS: Dainese Delta Pro Pants (38 Long) - $300+
Complete: Li Ion Battery, HID Gold Eyes, Radiator Guard, SSR Rearsets and RC2 Levers, Type 4 / 3 Brake Lines, 8149B Slip-On, FE, IT, Cluster LEDs, and LED Pegs, Sliders, Brake Pads, Corsa Screen.
Up Next: TTX MkII Rear Shock
Minx is offline  
post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 01:08 PM
Pocketbike Racer
 
boostedlt1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posts: 339
Thanks: 22
Thanked 41 Times in 34 Posts
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minx View Post
Mummy,

Would you like to share your knowledge on the subject as to why a 13.0/13.2 is safer than 14.7?
i'm no tuning expert but my thoughts -

14.7 would be fine for steady cruising/ idling to give you better fuel economy with. my cars in the 14.5-16 range while cruising /idling.

when you're racing and beating on the bike 14.7 is too lean. at 15k rpms you dont want to be running lean and melt a piston. 13.0/13.2 is gonna be richer and thus "cooler"

running lean is gonna increase cylinder temp and can also increase the likelihood of knock/detonation


Adam - Slocum Racing
'95 lt1. 355 - 9.4:1 - LE2 heads - LE cam - t70 @ 8psi (until i get moar fuel)
'03 CBR600RR - Two Brothers Slip-On
boostedlt1 is offline  
post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 06:04 PM
Vendor
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Austin, TX y'all
Posts: 2,465
Thanks: 6
Thanked 181 Times in 148 Posts
Feedback Score: 12 reviews
Even while cruising you have a load on the engine. With anything say over 50% throttle you want to be in the 13.0 and 13.2 area. While cruising you could go to say 13.7 but over that and you're getting into the area that is too lean. Never around 14.0 ever as it's too lean unless you're at idle. knock, detonation, heat, etc.

This entire stoic thing people need to 100% forget as it doesn't apply to engine unless they are at idle. With load on the engine EVERYTHING changes.

So around cruising area you could do up to 13.7 if you wanted, but imo it's just not worht the trouble. I tune to 13.2 across the board and call it a day.

It's not just bad for the bike when you get over a set AFR, but you'll also make less power and more heat when you get too lean.
motomummy is offline  
post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 09:46 PM
Pocketbike Racer
 
tuck and roll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 462
Thanks: 2
Thanked 32 Times in 29 Posts
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
13 to 1 a\f ratio is usually the best for power, the wide-band a\f sensors that come with the Bazzaz i have heard are no always accurate. You could confirm things with a good dyno tune with exhaust gas analyzer. The reason the manufactures try to keep the a\f ratio close to 14.7 to 1 is emissions. The catalytic converter works best to reduce HC, CO and NOx at that ratio. I don't no at which point, but a steady diet of rich mixtures ( possibly 12.5 to 1 ? or richer ) will soon ruin the cat, even melting it down and plugging it. Of course most of us lose the cat and we can tune to what ever ratio gives us the best power.

Last edited by tuck and roll; 11-13-2012 at 10:07 PM. Reason: more info
tuck and roll is offline  
post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 11:45 PM
Vendor
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Austin, TX y'all
Posts: 2,465
Thanks: 6
Thanked 181 Times in 148 Posts
Feedback Score: 12 reviews
The manufacturers do not try and keep it near 14.7. They would blow the engine in time. Nobody tries to tune to 14.7. The only place you should ever see over 14.0 is around idle and that is about normal. This entire 14.7 thing needs to be forgotten. In fact at high rpm's most manufacturers have it a bit too rich to ensure the engine survives their warranty period.

Last edited by motomummy; 11-14-2012 at 12:16 AM.
motomummy is offline  
post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-14-2012, 01:34 AM
Pocketbike Racer
 
tuck and roll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 462
Thanks: 2
Thanked 32 Times in 29 Posts
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
I agree these engines come a bit rich on the top end to keep them alive, but i don't know how you figure these engines are going to blow at 14.7 to 1 at cruise. The california model with O2 sensor feedback system is designed to do just that, to keep the emissions low, and the cat working at it's best. If they ran at 13 to 1 during cruise, they wouldn't pass the california emissions.
tuck and roll is offline  
post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-14-2012, 02:25 AM
Vendor
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Austin, TX y'all
Posts: 2,465
Thanks: 6
Thanked 181 Times in 148 Posts
Feedback Score: 12 reviews
Do you have the data sheet on how sportbikes are tested for california emissions? I've never seen that they are tested at cruise for stoic,but I would like to read the data that you found? Also most sportbikes stock run narrowband o2's which are very different then widebands that tune to an afr. Narrowband o2's suck and are not very precise at all.

I've heard of cars tuning leaner at cruise, but they have knock sensors, egt's, wideband o2's, ecu's that will adjust the timing based on these sensors, etc. We have none of that on our bikes. You're tuning for a lean condition hoping things are okay by the seat of your pants. It's not a good idea and you'll save very little gas so why bother and risk it? It doesn't make sense when you don't have any safeguards for a lean condition like cars do. You can't compare apples to oranges. Also our bikes cruise at a much higher rpm then most all cars/trucks/etc.

Stoic isn't something that is super important in tuning other then idle for sportbikes. It's nothing more then a chemical reaction where everything burns. However, that doesn't take all the other variables into account. Such as the fact that in an engine things happen in milliseconds and you don't always have enough time to wait around let things burn and reach stoic. Without that extra time things are too lean, too hot, will knock and cause damage. At idle there is very little load on the engine and you can tune to higher/leaner AFR's like 14.7 (but why even bother if your bike idles fine you're fine), but at cruise you have a load on the engine and it's a very bad idea. You need a richer environment so it will burn cooler, can react in the given time, won't pre-detonate, etc.

Even while cruising stoic can lead to a very hot engine and a lean condition and you have no safeguards on a bike, like you do on a car, to watch out for it. You're guessing with your engine and pretty much for no reason.

Last edited by motomummy; 11-14-2012 at 03:00 AM.
motomummy is offline  
post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-14-2012, 04:29 PM
Pocketbike Racer
 
tuck and roll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 462
Thanks: 2
Thanked 32 Times in 29 Posts
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Mummy man, i think we agree on a lot of this topic and the original starter of this tread got his question answerd. We just have a slight differance of opinion on how much a/f ratio these engines can take at different conditions. And i'm ok with that. I'd love to own a dyno and spend 100's of hours experimenting. As for my built engine , i will be sending it my dyno guy, telling him to tune for max power and a smooth transition from off throttle, no guessing here.
tuck and roll is offline  
post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-14-2012, 09:02 PM
Vendor
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Austin, TX y'all
Posts: 2,465
Thanks: 6
Thanked 181 Times in 148 Posts
Feedback Score: 12 reviews
I would agree. Make sure whoever tuned it gets you the AFR read out on the dyno sheet. Sounds dumb, but I'm kinda shocked how many people get a dyno tune and just get the hp/tq printouts. If the same guys is building your engine I'm sure you'll get the AFR with the power data though.
motomummy is offline  
post #16 of 16 (permalink) Old 01-01-2013, 09:01 PM
Pocketbike Racer
 
EfiniGTX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NYC
Posts: 322
Images: 1
Thanks: 7
Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts
Feedback Score: 3 reviews
what I learned from a tuning class is that the difference in power from running 10-1 vs 12-1 is not that huge of a difference in power. ignition timing plays a huge role, after A/F is sorted. everyone thinks tuning is just messing with fuel ratios, and it's a very narrow view of fuel injection tuning.

to answer the OP's question, there is no perfect "track" or street AFR, you gotta give the engine what it needs. and don't worry about the seat of the pants feel, all that money you spent really doesn't net you much noticeable HP. For a track bike you should want smooth, consistent, and reliable power.


09 Phoenix track slut
07 Ducati Sport Classic Biposto for sale
07 Ducati 1098s sold
EfiniGTX is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the 600RR.net forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome