Tire recommendation for learning rider. - 600RR.net
Tires, Suspension & Handling Sticky to slippery tire talk

 
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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 08:57 PM Thread Starter
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Tire recommendation for learning rider.

Looking for tire recommendations for my 07 CBR600RR while I'm learning how it handles.
The current tires on there right now are Shinko (011 Verge I believe), and when you see tire reviews, Shinko never seems to show up. When I see their shape and profile compared to other tires they also seem to have a flatter top. Might just be my imagination, but at the same time I don't want to start leaning the bike over onto tires I know nothing about, nor how long they've been on the bike. I just bought the bike in January, got my licence in Late March and I've put almost 1000 miles on the bike so far. I ride a fair amount, it's the new g/f.

What I'm looking for is a tire that is going to give even grip throughout, and slightly fade near the limit, warning me I'm getting there. I'm not unfamiliar with spirited driving, or track work, I know some high performance tires can be very on/off, 100% grip at the limit, and 0% grip a hair over. I'm looking for something that is going to communicate grip is running out at 90%.

I see the Rosso IIIs recommended a bit, some of the Battleax line as well. It's all over.

What I'm looking for is something that I can learn with and will help me learn. We all know there are tires that aren't forgiving of mis-steps and I'm trying to avoid those. But most tire reviews shine over that sort of short-coming.

Also, I'm not really concerned about price, not a humble brag, I don't cheap on rubber. Long standing rule that I think everyone should follow.

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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 10:56 PM
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The Pirelli Supercorsa SP V2 is my favorite performance tire right now. I've ridden on Dunlop Qualifier, Michelin Pilot Power, and Dunlop Q3 and the Pirellis give me the most confidence. Don't expect a lot of miles out of them and word is they are terrible in wet conditions.

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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 12:36 AM
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Are you just new to the bike or new to riding? I'm going to assume new to riding but correct me if I'm wrong. If new to riding then any tire will be fine. Even the Shinkos. Most of the stuff you're describing about grip doesn't really come into play until you're at a more advanced level. I would recommend a sport touring tire for street use. Tire profile is a personal preference.
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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 03:43 AM
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Look into Pirelli Angel GT not the ST. You get the benefit of a sports touring tire ( a lot of miles) and you can lean over quite a bit on them from what I heard. But if you're on the street you'll want the longevity of the sports touring tires.
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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 09:24 AM
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Don't discount the Shinkos. I have a pair of 009 Ravens on my bike and survived a trackday last year with them on and planning on keeping them on for this season. The profile really depends on the type of tire and Shinko 016 verge 2x have a peaky cross section - not sure how those compare to the 011s though.

If you're not sure how long they've been on the bike you can at least find out how long it's been since they've been manufactured. Every tire has a 4 digit code stamped somewhere on the sidewall that gives you the week and year of manufacture. So 2316 would be 23rd week of 2016.
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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 07:24 PM
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Since you're talking about feel/feedback at the limit, I assume you plan to ride primarily on twisty roads and perhaps a track day or two. Depending on whether or not you plan to ride in the wet, I would suggest one of the following:

(higher treadwear)
Metzeler Sportec M7RR
Bridgestone S21
Continental Sport Attack 3
Pirelli Rosso 3 / Rosso Corsa
Dunlop Q3
Bridgestone RS-10
Pirelli Supercorsa SP
Metzeler Racetec RR
(lower treadwear)

These are grouped and roughly ordered by suitability for longer distances on potentially wet roads (at the top) or dry track days at up to an Intermediate pace (at the bottom). I have not ridden on all of these tires, but here's what I can tell you about the ones I have tried.

Bridgestone S21: I rode the S20 Evo, on a Ninja 300.. mostly on the street but at a few trackdays as well. I assume the S21 is similar but better. The S20 Evo had OK feel and plenty of grip for public roads. It transitioned readily from upright to about halfway leaned over, but beyond that the profile seemed to put up some resistance. The limit came a little earlier than I'd hoped, but the breakaway was very smooth, progressive, and controllable with the throttle. (It was only a 35-hp bike, though.) Overall a harder carcass, so more muted in terms of road feel.

---This is a good place to note that none of these tires are going to give you the audible feedback that some car tires have near the limit. Yet none of them will be ON/OFF in terms of dry grip, as long as you allow them to warm up first.---

Pirelli Diablo Rosso Corsa: Has the aggressive profile and soft shoulder compound to deliver fast turn-in and steep lean angles, but falls a bit short in terms of road feel due to the combination of a very soft sidewall with an otherwise rigid carcass. Seems Pirelli couldn't decide whether to make a track tire or a sport-touring tire. As in the car world, though, such things can be tuned around. These came to me used on a Triumph Street Triple, and I didn't get the chance before the center compound was worn out. For the price I'd look elsewhere, but for canyon riding I wouldn't discard them. [The Rosso 3 is an evolution of the Rosso 2, not the Rosso Corsa.. so I can't really speak to it.]

Dunlop Q3: My tire of choice for the last several years. Abundant dry grip (and really good wet grip) with an aggressive profile that falls right into deep lean angles. Those carbon fiber sidewalls deliver great reflexes, but with a relatively soft carcass they mold themselves to the road while still delivering loads of feel.. especially when you bleed a little air out of them. The harder center compound makes them reasonably durable for the commute, but not as long wearing as a sport touring tire. The Q3 is the most popular aftermarket hypersport tire by a huge margin, and for the price they are hard to beat. I have only done two track sessions at Intermediate pace on these.. and even though I was not on my own bike (Yamaha demos) I felt right at home, up to and beyond the limit. In fact the demo leaders warned me afterwards I was getting too greedy with the gas at lean.. but that's what a progressive breakaway will enable you to do with good throttle control. I think they just wanted to sell me YCRS lessons.

Supercorsa SP (V2): Just tried these for the first time this week and they are fantastic. But I can tell they're not going to last, maybe 2000 miles if I'm lucky. So far I'm just commuting, not trying to heat them up, but they're already picking up pebbles off the road. Maybe I should add some air, try and keep 'em cooler until I can get up to the canyons. Anyway, the Supercorsa SP is essentially a better Dunlop Q3. They just beg you to brake later, lean farther, accelerate harder. They do need a little more time to warm up, though. And I've heard the wet grip is awful. But if I had a spare set of wheels and/or an endless budget, they would be my "money is no object" choice.

...

To some extent it's a matter of taste, though. Throw a set of BFG Rival S's on a car that was setup for RE-71R's and the driver will lose time and complain about how sloppy they feel. Of course, if you were to put either in the hands of a brand new Auto-X/track day driver they'd probably learn a lot less than they would from a set of all-seasons. So at this stage, unless you're planning to jump right into track riding, I wouldn't put you on anything more aggressive than a Q3.

But by all means.. use your own experience as a gauge, and take the opportunity to sample the different flavors. Maybe go down to your local shop and see how they look/feel in person. You can learn a lot about a tire without even riding it:
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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 10:30 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AF4iK View Post
Are you just new to the bike or new to riding? I'm going to assume new to riding but correct me if I'm wrong. If new to riding then any tire will be fine. Even the Shinkos. Most of the stuff you're describing about grip doesn't really come into play until you're at a more advanced level. I would recommend a sport touring tire for street use. Tire profile is a personal preference.
I'm new to riding and the bike.
It's good to hear the Shinkos aren't awful tires, I plan on doing trackdays as soon as I am able. I'm also planning on going to a trackbased school held here in southern NJ, as soon as I kind of meet the requirements for it (they want 2 years or 5k miles experience, something along those lines). A couple of track days want that too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by UAV Online View Post
Since you're talking about feel/feedback at the limit, I assume you plan to ride primarily on twisty roads and perhaps a track day or two. Depending on whether or not you plan to ride in the wet, I would suggest one of the following:

(higher treadwear)
Metzeler Sportec M7RR
Bridgestone S21
Continental Sport Attack 3
Pirelli Rosso 3 / Rosso Corsa
Dunlop Q3
Bridgestone RS-10
Pirelli Supercorsa SP
Metzeler Racetec RR
(lower treadwear)


---This is a good place to note that none of these tires are going to give you the audible feedback that some car tires have near the limit. Yet none of them will be ON/OFF in terms of dry grip, as long as you allow them to warm up first.---
]
Definitely going to avoid the wet, and if I get stuck in it, not going to be pulling any shenaniganz, not until I'm way more advanced.

This bottom part is a bit foreign to me, at least for a road based tire. I've driven on "slicks" which have an operating temperature. But roadtires, even highly performance based summer tires technically don't work on the same concept. Their operating temperture range is huge, and as long as it's above 40-50 degrees outside you don't have to worry about being outside of that range on the low side. You can overwork them, but grip at 100 degrees vs grip at 120 degrees is similar as long as the tire isn't reaching its upper limits.

Am I understanding this correctly that a motorcycle tire operates more like a proper racing slick as opposed to a summer tire?

...
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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 11:34 PM
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No, not at all. There is such a thing as a proper motorcycle racing slick. Those are the ones you'll want to avoid until you have really maxed out the Hypersport category. They have to be purchased either at the track or through a track-only tire retailer. And although some are DOT approved, you'd be out of your mind to try to use them their full potential on public roads.

Hypersport motorcycle tires will generally operate about the same as a Max/Extreme Performance Summer car tire. That is, they have a fairly wide operating temperature range. Of course, they will have less grip when they're cold than when warm to hot. So you wouldn't roll out of your garage on cold tires and chuck it into Turn 1 at 10/10ths, whether you were in your car or on your bike.

It seems like maybe you're conflating the temperature of the environment with the temperature of the tire itself. Even when the air and road surface is cool, you can progressively heat a tire well above those temperatures by progressively loading it. On the other hand, you can't assume that just because the air is warm that your tires are sufficiently warmed, too.
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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 12:22 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UAV Online View Post
No, not at all. There is such a thing as a proper motorcycle racing slick. Those are the ones you'll want to avoid until you have really maxed out the Hypersport category. They have to be purchased either at the track or through a track-only tire retailer. And although some are DOT approved, you'd be out of your mind to try to use them their full potential on public roads.

Hypersport motorcycle tires will generally operate about the same as a Max/Extreme Performance Summer car tire. That is, they have a fairly wide operating temperature range. Of course, they will have less grip when they're cold than when warm to hot. So you wouldn't roll out of your garage on cold tires and chuck it into Turn 1 at 10/10ths, whether you were in your car or on your bike.

It seems like maybe you're conflating the temperature of the environment with the temperature of the tire itself. Even when the air and road surface is cool, you can progressively heat a tire well above those temperatures by progressively loading it. On the other hand, you can't assume that just because the air is warm that your tires are sufficiently warmed, too.
I understand what you are saying. The sidewall of hypersport style tires is more akin to an extreme summer tire, that's really what I was looking for.

But for performance style car rubber, your grip is your grip and is pretty uniform across a tires operating range. There really is no such thing as "heating" up a road going summer tire as the rubber is designed to be elastic and at near maximum grip as long as it's within proper ambient temps. You can get a bit more grip out of warmed up tire, but it isn't some significant amount, probably closer to 9.5/10 vs 10/10

Also for the bolded part, at least for cars, unless you are looking at a track and you can actually properly load and raise an extreme performance style tire, I'd avoid them in colder weather. There is no way to properly heat and maintain that heat on these kinds of tires on most public roads. Yeah it might get there on Tail of the Dragon or some other long stretch of twisty tarmac, but in general you'd be better off on a proper all-season tire which is going to be made of a different compound. Despite the concept of heating tires, on road going tires like summer tires they are designed to dissipate heat quickly so they don't overheat quickly under hard use. Combine this with colder tempertures where the rubber isn't actually going to perform the way its designed, there is no way for them to heat up properly.

I was going to pull the specs from a specific manufacturer, but tirerack addresses the issue.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiret...jsp?techid=273

...
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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 03:35 PM
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Depends on your definition of "colder weather". Here in the LA Basin we moan if it gets below 45 degrees. So I've been nothing but impressed with Summer/Hypersport tires, both in the wet and dry. I'm sure I'd feel differently in your neck of the woods.. or if I were driving up to Big Bear regularly. I will say, though.. I've chucked my Miata into "Turn 1" (freeway onramp near my house) on a cold, wet day.. and the excellent wet traction the RE-11A's normally deliver was clearly absent. It was still better than the crappy all-seasons that came with the car, though. I'm sure there are better all-seasons out there, and if I ever had to deal with snow/ice I would have a set. But I've found that summer tires with proper water-evacuation tread designs can do it all for me.

Since no one really rides motorcycles in freezing conditions, on anything short of studded ice tires, we don't have all-season motorcycle tires. Here's a good breakdown of the general categories:

I've done my fair share of wet commutes on motorcycles. As long as it's not too cold and/or pouring rain, riding in the wet can be kinda fun. The thing you have to watch out for is painted lane stripes and crosswalk lines. Very slippery. Still, riding in the wet is actually a great way to learn how to ride well in the dry. The principles are the same.. there's just less traction. So you really have to be smooth with your inputs. And because the limit comes sooner, you can experience minor slides without having to ramp up the pace to extra-legal speeds.

The fact that you're even thinking about this stuff gives you a leg up on most riders out there. But it will take a good amount of education and experience before you feel comfortable at the limit. Glad to see you're planning to attend a track school. That will greatly accelerate your development. I'd also suggest checking out Ken Hill's podcast, Keith Code's "A Twist of the Wrist", and if you plan to ride much on public roads, David L. Hough's "Proficient Motorcycling".
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post #11 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 07:49 PM
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I would definitely consider the new Dunlop Roadsmart 3. There are ton of reviews on them that say they provide more grip than the average road rider could ever use. They have been designed for mid-weight sport bikes as well as sport tourers. I am thinking about picking up a set myself.

https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/201...touring-tires/

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Last edited by hbwesman; 04-21-2017 at 08:09 PM. Reason: Added link to tire review
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