Another electrical issue... - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-09-2017, 01:24 PM Thread Starter
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Exclamation Another electrical issue...

Yesterday I went to button up my bike after finally getting around to performing the repairs on my bike I talked about here. I replaced the ground block by crimping #6 connectors onto the ground wires and running a bolt through them. Worked well enough and the bike started. This was a week ago.

When I went to put everything back together last night, I decided I'd drain the coolant - and so I did. After filling the bike will distilled water I went to crank it to get the system clean. Nothing - bike hesitated to start and died. The starter motor sort of "coughed" like the battery was dying. Additionally the fuel pump primed weak - so I figured that was it. I left the bike on the charger for a few hours and did something else.

After the battery was charged up (bike had been sitting for a bit because of the last electrical problem) I went to crank it again. Fuel pump primes very strong. Bike cranks pretty strong but never "catches". I have fuel, I have air, so the only thing I'm missing is a spark. Cranking it is leaving me with a fuel smell so I'm guessing my injectors are fine.

Do I have another short? I don't even know what to do here to begin testing this. Especially it was running strong less than a week ago.
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post #2 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-09-2017, 01:34 PM
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no, it's just flooded from repeated cranking without firing.

hold the throttle wide open and crank it. it'll cough and sputter a few times, keep the throttle wide open. after cranking for 5 or so seconds and letting it try to catch, release the throttle and start it normally.





there should really be a sticky for this, it comes up every couple of days.
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post #3 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-09-2017, 09:12 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wibbly View Post
no, it's just flooded from repeated cranking without firing.

hold the throttle wide open and crank it. it'll cough and sputter a few times, keep the throttle wide open. after cranking for 5 or so seconds and letting it try to catch, release the throttle and start it normally.





there should really be a sticky for this, it comes up every couple of days.
Unforunately that is not the problem. After performing this the bike fails to start still. I don't smell fuel anymore. No error codes from jumping the data link connector. I'm not sure whats wrong.

Last edited by zersa; 01-09-2017 at 10:02 PM.
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post #4 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-10-2017, 07:55 AM
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Well, as a preliminary, I'd check the battery voltage before and after cranking, remove the spark plugs to make sure it's getting gas into the cylinders, check the plugs for spark while they're out.

The fact that it coughed then died makes me think it's a fuel delivery issue.
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post #5 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-10-2017, 09:34 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by trachito View Post
Well, as a preliminary, I'd check the battery voltage before and after cranking, remove the spark plugs to make sure it's getting gas into the cylinders, check the plugs for spark while they're out.

The fact that it coughed then died makes me think it's a fuel delivery issue.
Yeah, it only coughed and died once though. Now it won't even start. Cranking it for a solid 10 or so seconds should give me a bad fuel smell - but nothing.

I checked the PGM-FI fuse. It's fine. I don't really know how else to test injectors without ripping off the fuel rail though. Very loud positive CLICK from the left side, so the engine relays are likely fine.
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post #6 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-11-2017, 01:17 AM
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if the pump is priming and it's cranking, chances are it's trying to start.


maybe you fouled your plugs pretty badly.

before going through the pain of pulling them. try bump starting it. the starter motor doesn't turn the engine too fast, so a bump start can often help.



i'm just giving you the easy options here. diagnostics can get miserable so it's best to start with the easy stuff.
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post #7 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-11-2017, 01:43 AM
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Wibbly , bravo on the old school style!

OP, "bump start it", is good advice.

you'll need a couple of friends, or a steep hill.

these bikes need a stout push to get them started...!

watch youtube vid's to learn how, and try it ?

Last edited by tary preisser; 01-11-2017 at 01:51 AM.
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post #8 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-11-2017, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zersa View Post
Yeah, it only coughed and died once though. Now it won't even start. Cranking it for a solid 10 or so seconds should give me a bad fuel smell - but nothing.

I checked the PGM-FI fuse. It's fine. I don't really know how else to test injectors without ripping off the fuel rail though. Very loud positive CLICK from the left side, so the engine relays are likely fine.
When the plugs come out, you'll be able to see or smell the gas going into each cylinder. Then you can test the plug while it's out.

Careful when turning the engine cuz I once got sprayed in the face with gas. Also, make sure you touch the plug to a ground where it won't get hit with fuel.

Last edited by trachito; 01-11-2017 at 06:45 AM.
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post #9 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-11-2017, 10:59 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tary preisser View Post
Wibbly , bravo on the old school style!

OP, "bump start it", is good advice.

you'll need a couple of friends, or a steep hill.

these bikes need a stout push to get them started...!

watch youtube vid's to learn how, and try it ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by trachito View Post
When the plugs come out, you'll be able to see or smell the gas going into each cylinder. Then you can test the plug while it's out.

Careful when turning the engine cuz I once got sprayed in the face with gas. Also, make sure you touch the plug to a ground where it won't get hit with fuel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wibbly View Post
if the pump is priming and it's cranking, chances are it's trying to start.


maybe you fouled your plugs pretty badly.

before going through the pain of pulling them. try bump starting it. the starter motor doesn't turn the engine too fast, so a bump start can often help.



i'm just giving you the easy options here. diagnostics can get miserable so it's best to start with the easy stuff.
Thank you. I attempted to bump start the bike today and it did SOUND like it wanted to start, but it never did catch. I got a good run (bike got up to 10-11 mph each time), tried first, second, third. None of the gears worked for me. There was a distinct smell of excessive gas coming from the bike the first few push starts so I'm guessing I knocked some gas out.

After wheeling it back to the garage I tried the WOT trick again and still nothing.

Could it be really badly fouled plugs? If so how did my bike go so suddenly from working to super flooded? It doesn't add up at all. I've pulled the radiator off. I'll either get to the plugs later tonight or early tomorrow and take a picture of how they look.

In the mean time - any other things I can check? I checked the PGM-FI fuse, the fuel cut off relay, and the hacked-up replacement grounding thing I made for it. Everything seems okay. I can definitely smell gas now so the injectors are probably fine. I'm just not sure how the engine flooded... aside from cranking it too much when it didn't want to start (by accident) - it still didnt start initially after sitting for a week. It just doesn't add up.

EDIT: Are you suggesting with the plugs off I kick the back tire or something to get the engine to turn and try to force the gas out?

Last edited by zersa; 01-11-2017 at 11:32 PM.
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post #10 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-12-2017, 08:21 AM
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You could take the plugs out and try turning it on normally to see if gas come out of the cylinders, just have the spark plugs unplugged so they don't spark near any gas.

I really don't think it's fouled plugs. It sounds like you're not getting spark. If this is the case, then something is shorting or a sensor is preventing them from sparking.
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post #11 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-12-2017, 11:17 AM
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FWIW.....

Had my 09 do this when the R/R ground was loosened at frame connect point.

cranked fine .....never started.
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post #12 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-12-2017, 02:48 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tary preisser View Post
FWIW.....

Had my 09 do this when the R/R ground was loosened at frame connect point.

cranked fine .....never started.
What is the R/R ground?

Quote:
Originally Posted by trachito View Post
You could take the plugs out and try turning it on normally to see if gas come out of the cylinders, just have the spark plugs unplugged so they don't spark near any gas.

I really don't think it's fouled plugs. It sounds like you're not getting spark. If this is the case, then something is shorting or a sensor is preventing them from sparking.
Yeah I'm thinking it's a short somewhere...again. I'm gonna pull the plugs and replace them anyway because I'm pushing 25k miles and I already have the radiator pulled. In the mean time can you think of where I can start searching for a short? I linked in the OP that I replaced my yellow ground block with #6 connectors attached to a #6 bolt. The contacts seem to be good there and I gave each connector a good yank to make sure it's seated correctly. Could I have screwed something up and shorted something else now?
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post #13 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-12-2017, 03:44 PM
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What is the R/R ground?



Yeah I'm thinking it's a short somewhere...again. I'm gonna pull the plugs and replace them anyway because I'm pushing 25k miles and I already have the radiator pulled. In the mean time can you think of where I can start searching for a short? I linked in the OP that I replaced my yellow ground block with #6 connectors attached to a #6 bolt. The contacts seem to be good there and I gave each connector a good yank to make sure it's seated correctly. Could I have screwed something up and shorted something else now?
regulator rectifier. on my 1000rr, the connector to mine touched the frame and melted the wires. this caused the battery to stop receiving a charge from the stator while i was riding and the bike killed from a drained battery. I doubt that this is your problem, but check the connection anyway.

you'll have to find out which sensors/switches kill ignition and check those, like the kickstand switch. i know the kill switch stops the fuel pump but i'm not sure if it also kills power to the plugs. check all connections, grounds, and if you have a Power Commander unplug it entirely and hook all connections back to stock.
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post #14 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-12-2017, 04:31 PM Thread Starter
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regulator rectifier. on my 1000rr, the connector to mine touched the frame and melted the wires. this caused the battery to stop receiving a charge from the stator while i was riding and the bike killed from a drained battery. I doubt that this is your problem, but check the connection anyway.

you'll have to find out which sensors/switches kill ignition and check those, like the kickstand switch. i know the kill switch stops the fuel pump but i'm not sure if it also kills power to the plugs. check all connections, grounds, and if you have a Power Commander unplug it entirely and hook all connections back to stock.
No PC on mine. I'll check the R/R connections when I get home.

Would the fuel pump prime/bike crank if the kill switch wasn't working? I don't think it would.

There are quite a few connections on the bike. I guess I'll need my wiring diagram again...
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post #15 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-12-2017, 11:06 PM
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No, it shouldn't prime if the kill switch is shot. It can crank though.
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post #16 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-13-2017, 02:25 AM
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ok. just to clarify

if the bike is in neutral, the kickstand switch does not affect starting and the clutch switch does not affect starting. so if you are in neutral, ignore anyone who suggests these sensors. you could take a chainsaw to either of them and the bike would still start. kickstand up or down, clutch in or out, the bike will start in neutral. remember this.




if the pump primes, it means that all systems involved in stopping the bike are satisfied. your kill switch is good, your bank angle sensor is good.



from here, it would take either an issue in the ecm or circuit or sensor problem, or some sort of mechanical failure to prevent starting. by mechanical failure i mean a fouled plug, blocked intake, clogged injectors, empty fuel tank etc.


if you haven't done any mechanical work to the bike we will ignore issues like cam timing etc.





it sounds to me like you are having an issue with spark. how many kms on the bike? have you changed plugs?


given that bump starting didn't help, pull a plug.


if you are sneaky, you should be able to get one of the plugs out pretty easily. i'm not super up to speed on the 03-06 bikes, but usually pulling a side panel will give you enough access to remove either cyl1 or cyl4 plug without much worry.




this should be the next step in your troubleshooting process. if the plug is caked in black **** and looks pretty bad, just replace them. if they look wonderful then report back
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post #17 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-15-2017, 06:51 PM Thread Starter
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ok. just to clarify

if the bike is in neutral, the kickstand switch does not affect starting and the clutch switch does not affect starting. so if you are in neutral, ignore anyone who suggests these sensors. you could take a chainsaw to either of them and the bike would still start. kickstand up or down, clutch in or out, the bike will start in neutral. remember this.




if the pump primes, it means that all systems involved in stopping the bike are satisfied. your kill switch is good, your bank angle sensor is good.



from here, it would take either an issue in the ecm or circuit or sensor problem, or some sort of mechanical failure to prevent starting. by mechanical failure i mean a fouled plug, blocked intake, clogged injectors, empty fuel tank etc.


if you haven't done any mechanical work to the bike we will ignore issues like cam timing etc.





it sounds to me like you are having an issue with spark. how many kms on the bike? have you changed plugs?


given that bump starting didn't help, pull a plug.


if you are sneaky, you should be able to get one of the plugs out pretty easily. i'm not super up to speed on the 03-06 bikes, but usually pulling a side panel will give you enough access to remove either cyl1 or cyl4 plug without much worry.




this should be the next step in your troubleshooting process. if the plug is caked in black **** and looks pretty bad, just replace them. if they look wonderful then report back
Sorry it took so long to report back. I have 25,000 mi (~40km) on the bike. It's definitely due for a plug change.

I went to pull the plugs after dropping the radiator per the hayne's manual. I have pull on the coil with as much strength as I can muster given the awkward position and it will not budge. I can wiggle it (using the #3 cyl for example) and turn the coil but I can get it to come out. The hayne's manual strongly advises against levering the coil out so im not sure how I can get this thing unstuck. The #2/#3 plugs seem like the easiest to access.
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post #18 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-15-2017, 07:01 PM
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you can lever them out. just take a the shank of a screwdriver and slide it under the electrical connector side of the coil as close to the coil body and give it a slight push. it'll come out.


they don't recommend it because there is always the idiot who takes a huge prybar to it and fucks it up.


just be gentle
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post #19 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-15-2017, 07:11 PM Thread Starter
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you can lever them out. just take a the shank of a screwdriver and slide it under the electrical connector side of the coil as close to the coil body and give it a slight push. it'll come out.


they don't recommend it because there is always the idiot who takes a huge prybar to it and fucks it up.


just be gentle
I was pushing up pretty hard on it with a bigger flat head (about the size of the connector), from the side and pressed pretty close to the coil body and nothing still. Do you think some PB blaster might help it? I'm pretty sure PB is safe on rubber.
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post #20 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-15-2017, 07:31 PM
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no, spraying won't help.


the rubber isn't stuck, the barb that bites against the spark plug is stuck.


they can definitely be a pain in the ass, but they'll come. pry a bit and wiggle a bit with your free hand. they'll pop out
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post #21 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-15-2017, 07:49 PM Thread Starter
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no, spraying won't help.


the rubber isn't stuck, the barb that bites against the spark plug is stuck.


they can definitely be a pain in the ass, but they'll come. pry a bit and wiggle a bit with your free hand. they'll pop out
I ended up using a little bit of PB and it seemed to help get it working. I cleaned off the coil when I got it free. What a pain in the ass.

Attached is a photo of the spark plug. It looks like carbon fouling. They need to be replaced so I'll order a set and replace them. I will re-edit this after grounding the spark plug on the case and cranking it to check for spark.

EDIT: After grounding the spark plug against the frame I noticed it is sparking - at least in the #3 cylinder. The spark is weak (sort of orangish) so I will be replacing all of the spark plugs.

However this means that the problem isnt spark. It's fuel....

I guess the next thing I can do is spray some PB in the intake and see if it starts. What could cause a lack of fuel delivery? I'm going to tape some cloth to cover the open cylinder and let it air out on the off chance its super flooded. However, the plug wasnt wet (see pic), so I'm left thinking there's no fuel delivery. You'd think it would throw an error code when I jump the data link connector though...
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post #22 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-15-2017, 11:14 PM
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Could be sparking but not hot enough for a good ignition.


I wouldn't even put it back together until you change those plugs
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post #23 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-15-2017, 11:38 PM Thread Starter
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Could be sparking but not hot enough for a good ignition.


I wouldn't even put it back together until you change those plugs
I agree. Bike will sit until Wednesday when the plugs come in. I'll update again then when they are reinstalled.

Until then, anything else I can check?
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post #24 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-16-2017, 12:14 AM
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nah, just put plugs in, and if that doesn't solve the issue, at least you needed to do them anyway.

chances are that's all it is. given you got it to stumble when you tried bump starting it.




when you get the new plugs installed, if it doesn't fire up in the first crank or two, DO NOT KEEP CRANKING IT.
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post #25 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-16-2017, 01:27 AM Thread Starter
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nah, just put plugs in, and if that doesn't solve the issue, at least you needed to do them anyway.

chances are that's all it is. given you got it to stumble when you tried bump starting it.




when you get the new plugs installed, if it doesn't fire up in the first crank or two, DO NOT KEEP CRANKING IT.
Roger, I will follow up once they're installed.

Thanks again for all your help.
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post #26 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-19-2017, 12:32 AM Thread Starter
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nah, just put plugs in, and if that doesn't solve the issue, at least you needed to do them anyway.

chances are that's all it is. given you got it to stumble when you tried bump starting it.




when you get the new plugs installed, if it doesn't fire up in the first crank or two, DO NOT KEEP CRANKING IT.
So I installed the plugs, and cranked it WOT in 30 second bursts, 30-45 seconds rest for about 8 minutes before the battery started dying.

I got two good starts. One of them I was able to catch it with the throttle and hold it for about 2 seconds before it died. Pronounced fuel smell coming from the tailpipe. I then started to try to bump start it, fuel smell but no start. The bike is completely flooded, and it keeps on getting flooded. Something is terribly wrong with the fuel/air ratio. Could my fuel breathers and stuff be blocked? I have the tank lifted a little so there shouldnt be any obstructions...
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post #27 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-19-2017, 01:53 AM
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how'd u bump start it w/tank lifted?

Be meticulous when replacing tank.

Breathers etc, kink very easily.

Trace them all by hand/feel after tank set in position!

And can collapse tank if not working right.!

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post #28 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-19-2017, 02:06 AM Thread Starter
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how'd u bump start it w/tank lifted?

Be meticulous when replacing tank.

Breathers etc, kink very easily.

Trace them all by hand/feel after tank set in position!

And can collapse tank if not working right.!
I just pinned it against the bolt areas but I didn't bolt it down. The pressure of the metal seems to have kept it in place just fine.

I don't have small hands, how can I trace the lines once its down?
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post #29 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-19-2017, 07:35 AM
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I wonder if some of your cylinders aren't firing. Did you check them all for spark?

I don't think it's a fuel deficiency issue because it smells like fuel which means it's not getting burned. If you can get it to turn on for a few seconds, check the temperature of each header. If one is cold then that cylinder isn't firing.

Could also be bad fuel ratio.
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post #30 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-19-2017, 01:28 PM Thread Starter
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I wonder if some of your cylinders aren't firing. Did you check them all for spark?

I don't think it's a fuel deficiency issue because it smells like fuel which means it's not getting burned. If you can get it to turn on for a few seconds, check the temperature of each header. If one is cold then that cylinder isn't firing.

Could also be bad fuel ratio.
Yeah tail pipe smells like fuel, other people have told me the garage smells really badly like fuel - so definitely flooded. As far as spark, I'm an idiot and didn't check the coils when I was putting it back together. However, if it means anything all plugs I pulled were completely dry. If it was flooded worse than a rice paddy I'd expect soaked plugs.

What is the recommended way to measure cylinder temperature?

How can I check the air/fuel ratio, and what could've caused it to suddenly go completely out of wack? I don't have a PC installed on this bike.

Last edited by zersa; 01-19-2017 at 01:31 PM.
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