03 Surging, RPM varying and Bucking - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 04:36 PM Thread Starter
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03 Surging, RPM varying and Bucking

Hey RR.net, I'm making this thread to compile things I've read on this site and elsewhere, and hoping y'all can help me nail down the problem. It should be noted that this is my first FI bike, and the first time I've wrenched on something this reliant on a computer and sensors. Please forgive my ignorance.

No FI light, no flashing code light. No modifications.

Under steady throttle, the RPMs will vary cyclically. That is to say, they climb and fall around a certain point at a certain rate. I start noticing it at about 5k RPM. Its worst at about 9k. Under hard acceleration I get "flat spots" where the cycle is on the downswing.

The felt effect is that the bike bucks a little bit as the engine spins and slows.

I've read suggestions of TP Sensors MAP sensors, dirty injectors, spark plugs, Bad battery connections, bad batteries, frozen chain links, and bad fuel pumps/ clogged strainers. Most of the threads on this topic didn't come to a definite solution - there was one where a guy changed so much at once there was no way to tell what the actual problem was!


I want to do this scientifically, changing only one thing at a time. The only thing I've done so far is run a couple tanks of seafoam, thinking it would un-gunk my injectors. Next step is to check the battery.
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post #2 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 06:15 PM
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I've got the same thing right now on my 05 - thing seems to want to drive its own, speeding up and slowing down even though I don't think my hand moved on the throttle. Drives great at times, and then seems like its got half-power.

I replaced the whole throttlebody/airbox assembly, and the only reasons left I'm guessing here is:
slight vacuum leak (from injector o-ring seats, or from 5-way split down to TB)
dirty/clogged gas route (injectors, fuel filter, possible fuel pump is bad due to sounding funny on rare occasion during priming.)
MAF sensor or wiring harness (unlikely both my MAF sensors are bad, first one tested out fine according to honda service manual) I say wiring harness because it seems like whenever I go over a bump in the road, the engine knock sensor is getting tripped and advancing the timing, as it bucks about 2-3 times a half second after the bump.
Loose engine mount bolts letting engine shake around, tripping knock sensor. (One guy posts a video about it, sounds like a variable-speed circular saw that gets louder as the RPMs rise, but not to be confused with a bad CamChainTensioner and the noise that makes)
TB Starter (choke) valves are gummed up and getting stuck at incorrect and unsynchronized places when engine idle wax unit pulls them out as the engine heats up during riding.
Rear sprocket was not mounted dead-center to wheel hub using 4 feeler gauges as shims, so while the sprocket itself is concentric, its position is essentially moving oblong like an egg - easy to tell when you go to tighten your chain tension and find its super tight in one spot, roll it a few feet, and its back to perfect spec (also could be stretched chain in just one spot, but come on now) - and that trips the knock sensor.
Out of balance wheel, bent rim, bent forks, no/incorrect fork oil in one side, bad wheel bearings, CCT is on its way out and cam chain skipped a tooth.
That damn Ethanol fuel.

The list goes on and on....

One thing I did find, however, was if I set the idle rich, it seems to go away for the most part, but its like the bike is sluggish and doesn't have that 'pick-up' like it should. My suggestion, before you go and drop $$$ trying to chase this thing, is go fill up with 93oct (no fuel inj cleaner), ride it around for about an hour, and after a good 45mph cruise come to a stop in neutral and adjust your idle thumb screw so its dead center (or just a hair higher) between the 1 and the 1.5 tick on your tach. Then go home and disconnect the battery and turn the key back to ON and leave it overnight.

Also, don't rely on engine braking as much as the ECU seems to remember what gear and at what RPM it bucks at, leading to more frustration. And make sure your chain is tensioned properly, ie have a buddy check it when your sitting on the bike. Make sure you get your battery load tested at autozone/orielly's/batteriesplus. The Rectifier/Regulator is also a known common part that goes bad on 03-06's, along with the fuel pump and CCT.

I'll let you know exactly what it is when I figure it out, but funds are tight atm so who knows just when that's going to be....

Oh forgot to mention - your clutch is adjusted right and not worn out, right? If you rev it in 2nd up to ~8k RPM and drop the throttle, the RPM needle doesn't bounce around when you cut the throttle, does it?

2005 CBR600RR - bone stock

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post #3 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 10:28 AM
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Zach, definitely rule out low voltage issues by cleaning and tightening your battery cables as well as your main ground on the left side of the frame. If you're battery is above 12.8v when it's OFF, then those can be ruled out.

Next is to rule out low fuel pressure. Make sure your fuel line hose is installed "in the groove of the tank". Pull your tank up and check all your hoses underneath. Make sure your overflow and air breather tubes are not clogged or pinched.

If the basics don't flush out the problem its worth your time and money to find a dyno or someone with an A/F ratio meter. Then you can see if you're running too lean from a bad fuel pump or strainer.

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post #4 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 03:29 PM Thread Starter
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Update: beautiful day to be wrenching, though I am still searching.

Changed my oil and then went to Oreilly's and had them test my battery. It tested poorly, so it has been replaced. The issue persists, though my bike started noticeably better.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Amp4027 View Post
Then go home and disconnect the battery and turn the key back to ON and leave it overnight.
What is the point of this? To reset the computer?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Amp4027 View Post
Oh forgot to mention - your clutch is adjusted right and not worn out, right? If you rev it in 2nd up to ~8k RPM and drop the throttle, the RPM needle doesn't bounce around when you cut the throttle, does it?
Haven't tried that specific test, but my old cb750 had a clutch slip issue and this doesn't feel like that.


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Originally Posted by NewRedRider View Post
Next is to rule out low fuel pressure. Make sure your fuel line hose is installed "in the groove of the tank". Pull your tank up and check all your hoses underneath. Make sure your overflow and air breather tubes are not clogged or pinched.
Sounds like this is my next task. Thanks guys!
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post #5 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 08:36 PM
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What is the point of this? To reset the computer?
Yes. From what I've read, once the bike enters "limp home" mode, it stays that way until reset.

Do you have your idle properly adjusted where its not trying to readjust every few seconds? I noticed that if you run it on the high side (needle almost touching the 1.5K RPM mark), it tends to smooth out, although it seems to lack power/sluggish <5k RPM.

My new (used) coil packs came and I swapped out two of them which looked the most worn on the contact points - the issue went away for a little while, but has returned again. Same thing happened when I swapped out the airbox/TB assembly. It seems completely intermittent and random, and extremely frustrating.

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post #6 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 10:50 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Yes. From what I've read, once the bike enters "limp home" mode, it stays that way until reset.

Do you have your idle properly adjusted where its not trying to readjust every few seconds? I noticed that if you run it on the high side (needle almost touching the 1.5K RPM mark), it tends to smooth out, although it seems to lack power/sluggish <5k RPM.

My new (used) coil packs came and I swapped out two of them which looked the most worn on the contact points - the issue went away for a little while, but has returned again. Same thing happened when I swapped out the airbox/TB assembly. It seems completely intermittent and random, and extremely frustrating.
I've never felt like it was in limp mode, but I did disconnect the computer when I inspected the airbox. Any idea if that resets it? It probably has its own little battery in there, doesn't it? Hence the advice to disconnect the batt and leave it on overnight.

I played around with the idle today, didn't seem to affect my issue whether I set it high or low.



Sorry you're having such intermittent troubles. Makes it so much harder to track down!
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post #7 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 11:49 PM
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By limp mode, I meant it felt like it was only firing on 3 cyl's and throttle response was piss-poor. Not sure if there is a battery in there, but I do not think so. Leaving it unplugged is to clear any trouble codes and basically have it return to default setup.

So I adjusted my idle just before (half the needle's thickness away from touching the 1.5k mark), and it seems a good majority of the bucking has gone away, and its got its <5k RPM power back - maybe the ECU just needed to readjust itself?

One curious thing I noticed for the first time: my headlight was flickering mildly when I first started the bike. While I don't trust the $28 battery I have in it completely, it may be the Regulator / Rectifier that needs to be replaced, and is causing these issues?

Did you try to pull the trouble codes from you bike? You have to short out a connector under your seat in the battery box and your oil pressure light will blink out the trouble codes. I'll be doing this tomorrow, so I'll take a few pics for a tutorial.

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post #8 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-25-2017, 03:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amp4027 View Post
While I don't trust the $28 battery I have in it completely, it may be the Regulator / Rectifier that needs to be replaced, and is causing these issues
I had the exact same issue on my '03. Felt like it was "cutting out" for a millisecond around 5k, didn't always do it.

Replaced battery, same issue. Replaced R/R and problem is gone.

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post #9 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-25-2017, 03:19 PM Thread Starter
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I had the exact same issue on my '03. Felt like it was "cutting out" for a millisecond around 5k, didn't always do it.

Replaced battery, same issue. Replaced R/R and problem is gone.

I'm not sure if thats quite my problem, but I'd like to at least test my reg/rec. I have heard its something known to go wrong with the 03s.

I found this on another forum. Its a charging system fault finding chart. Seems like a super handy resource!

http://www.electrosport.com/media/pd...ng-diagram.pdf

I'll also be testing my TPS. .4 to .6 volts closed and 4.2 to 4.8 open are the range for "good" according to the manual.

I'm not entirely sure how the sensor works so correct me if I'm wrong: The tps is a variable resistor that lets more juice through as the butterfly valves open. (I swear I took an electronics class in college. Two even!) If the TPS is sending fluctuating voltages, the EMS could be sending more gas and less gas regardless of butterfly valve position effectively starving and saturating the air/fuel mix. Sound plausible?

Also, I've heard that Honda syncs tps and throttle bodies at the factory and they don't really want them to be parted from each other. I've heard stories about cut off bolt heads, heard others say that its not true, they just use torx heads. I can tell you for sure that mine look like plain shafts. No bolt head, no torx.

Seems like the whole set of bodies with a TPS can be had for about the same price as a single TPS on eBay. Which is nice, but two bolts and a harness clip sounds like a lot less work than the whole throttle body assembly!
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post #10 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-25-2017, 04:42 PM
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IIRC,

About 2 yrs ago a poster OTF tried to change only the TPS, and clamed he could sync it with throttle bodies.......he never finished the thread.

Buy the whole assembly, if TPS is bad?

FWIW, I had a problem on my 09 that was throwing code that TPS was bad.

Bike behaved like you describe.

With PC5 and a laptop, you can look at voltage from TPS, my V from TPS was varying with throttle held steady.

TPS wasn't bad, it turned out to be a failing PC5 that Dynojet replaced on warranty terms.

New PC5 and bike runs good 30k miles later.....
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post #11 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-25-2017, 06:00 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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IIRC,

About 2 yrs ago a poster OTF tried to change only the TPS, and clamed he could sync it with throttle bodies.......he never finished the thread.
That's a scary story. I'll make sure to tell that one around the campfire some time lol.


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Originally Posted by tary preisser View Post
FWIW, I had a problem on my 09 that was throwing code that TPS was bad.


With PC5 and a laptop, you can look at voltage from TPS, my V from TPS was varying with throttle held steady.

TPS wasn't bad, it turned out to be a failing PC5 that Dynojet replaced on warranty terms.

New PC5 and bike runs good 30k miles later.....
Unfortunately mine doesn't have a PC, so I'll have to check the voltages myself, and theres no chance of warranty replacement. Also, my bike is not giving me any codes, which makes this even more of an odd chase.
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post #12 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-25-2017, 09:52 PM
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No code.....TPS malf should throw code.....check something else?

R/R as other posters suggested?
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post #13 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 11:39 PM
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Update on mine:
The new airbox I got seems to have an injector that gets stuck open and floods the engine - I have to give it throttle while pushing the starter button now on occasion. Another tank of techron will hopefully clear that up.
Running the idle at ~1375RPM (half a needlewidth from 1.5k RPM) seems to have gotten rid of the bucking for the most part - seems now it is just chainslap or the rubber bumpers in the rear wheel are hard as a rock. Better throttle control seems to take care of it, however. Make sure your chain is adjusted, and doesn't have too much slack. It is quite possible the MAP sensor is going on both airbox assemblies, but I really want to say its the speed sensor or cam sensor that is the one that is going because it seems that the engine is always 'in-front-of' or 'behind' itself, instead of 'riding the wave' like it should - hope that makes sense. Kinda like the cam chain skipped a tooth forward or backward as I'm driving.

I do remember when I had a PCIII on my other bike (same year & model), and you could actually set the throttle closed voltage value (or was it 2% open) onto the bike's ECU thru the computer. Maybe someone had a PC on your bike, set it, and then took it off when they sold it to you? I'm thinking that is possible with mine as well, because it seems if I WOT it, it bogs out (ECU is registering 102% open throttle and shitting the bed), but if I roll on it to 95% or so, it gits up and goes like it should.

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post #14 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-29-2017, 12:17 AM
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Off topic, but my wife's subaru had some idling problems, no codes, cleaned the throttle body and mass airflow sensor. I put two bottles of Techron through it no better. Bought some BG44k off Amazon and the idling problem went away. If you think the injectors are dirty you might try it. I also ran half a can through the CBR on a full tank, but didn't notice anything different.

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post #15 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-02-2017, 10:59 PM Thread Starter
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My charging system tests good according to the chart I posted earlier. Unfortunately, thats all the troubleshooting I've been able to do lately. Been a busy guy.



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Off topic, but my wife's subaru had some idling problems, no codes, cleaned the throttle body and mass airflow sensor. I put two bottles of Techron through it no better. Bought some BG44k off Amazon and the idling problem went away. If you think the injectors are dirty you might try it. I also ran half a can through the CBR on a full tank, but didn't notice anything different.
I've got a half a can of seafoam run through it now. Might give that stuff a shot.
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post #16 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-03-2017, 11:08 AM
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After setting the idle high and running another bottle of techron concentrate PLUS thru it over the course of 4 tanks of gas and trying to keep it above 5.5k RPM (so secondary injectors are firing), it seems to have gotten better for the most part. Seems chain tension and non-ethanol gas has a lot to do with it - after filling up with some non-eth 90oct from Sunoco, it seems to run like my other one did back in 2008. Be careful running techron at too high a concentration - found out that it can melt the moly-coating inside the throttle bodies.

I'm still wondering if the speed sensor is going bad and causing intermittent problems. When I'm at low speed (aka 1st gear and clutch out no throttle) bike says 4MPH, but even when I give it like 0.2% throttle and can see I'm going faster like running speed instead of jogging speed, it still says 4MPH until it goes up really fast from 4 to 7-8MPH.

Still have to "roll" on the throttle and 'ride the wave' instead of just WOT and jetting like my old bike used to, however.

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post #17 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-05-2017, 01:52 PM Thread Starter
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running another bottle of techron concentrate PLUS thru it over the course of 4 tanks of gas and trying to keep it above 5.5k RPM (so secondary injectors are firing), it seems to have gotten better for the most part. Seems chain tension and non-ethanol gas has a lot to do with it.
I need to find some clear highway to get it consistently above 5.5k. Too much traffic here to keep treated fuel flowing through my secondaries. I'm not sure if they're the problem, but it could make sense. City commuting doesn't use the secondaries very often - hell, I don't need to get out of first gear most of the time. So I'd guess its possible they're all gummed up from disuse.


Did you find that your chain was too tight? Too loose?

Also, what issues do you think your speed sensor is causing? Other than skipping 5&6 mph, it doesn't control anything else, does it?
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post #18 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-05-2017, 10:19 PM
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Make sure your chain is adjusted, and doesn't have too much slack

Maybe someone had a PC on your bike, set it, and then took it off when they sold it to you?
Chain slack could play a part. However with the PCIII, as far as my understanding goes, when you remove it then the bike is back to stock? The PCIII controls the fuel trim etc and doesn't modify the ECU in any way.

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post #19 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-08-2017, 12:09 PM
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I need to find some clear highway to get it consistently above 5.5k. Too much traffic here to keep treated fuel flowing through my secondaries. I'm not sure if they're the problem, but it could make sense. City commuting doesn't use the secondaries very often - hell, I don't need to get out of first gear most of the time. So I'd guess its possible they're all gummed up from disuse.


Did you find that your chain was too tight? Too loose?

Also, what issues do you think your speed sensor is causing? Other than skipping 5&6 mph, it doesn't control anything else, does it?
nah, just run it in low gears, and be steady with the twitchy throttle.
Chain tension is good, does have a tough link in it though that could be part of the problem.
Speedo has to do with telling the ECU where it is on the fuel map, along with a bunch of other sensors, iirc.

So I finished running that tank of 90oct NON-eth gas thru it, ran smooth as butter.
Soon as I went and put in some 93oct <10%eth, the intermittent random bucking and shaking started again. While it is possible it is the fuel pump (still occasionally sounds funny when priming), I don't think it would of not done it for a full tankload.
Another thing I'm wondering about is a blown (very small leak) in the headgasket/warped head. When I got the bike, the radiator reservoir looked like someone spilt a big dimesized drop of acid in the middle of the tank, which I assume is either from superheated steam or from the res touching the header pipes (wasn't secured properly), which in turn, lead to the headgasket/head warpage and leak.

Runs good with full power from 97F until the bike gets up to ~160F, then seems to be around 70% power, and intermittent power loss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OzHonda View Post
Chain slack could play a part. However with the PCIII, as far as my understanding goes, when you remove it then the bike is back to stock? The PCIII controls the fuel trim etc and doesn't modify the ECU in any way.
Wasn't sure if it did or not. Good info.

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post #20 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-08-2017, 02:36 PM
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i think you're giving way too much credit to the vehicle speed sensor,

unplug it and see what happens, you might be surprised.



people think these bikes are super smart, but they really aren't.
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post #21 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-09-2017, 06:16 PM
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people think these bikes are super smart, but they really aren't.
Don't say that! *hugs bike* It's okay, wibbly is just being mean. Haha

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post #22 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 06:44 PM Thread Starter
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New as of today: I've tested the flow rate of the fuel pump. 6.something oz for 10 seconds. I'm not sure how I'd go about testing the fuel pressure.

Checked some spark plugs, they seem ok. No indication of running lean.

back probed my TPS, all voltages seem correct. No spikes, and when I hold the throttle steady, the voltages stay steady.


At this point I'm wondering if it could be bad rings. My exhaust is by no means 2-stroke-y but it is a little white.

What do y'all think?
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post #23 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-24-2017, 10:52 PM
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I think when I detail strip and rebuild the engine after this summer, I'll have a definite answer. I'm guessing I have a broke wire somewhere, like from when I probed the MAP and IAT sensor with a sewing needle. It seemed to run great, but after a few speed bumps its back to bucking even with 90oct non-eth gas. Worse it seems to be is the ride after I drive it for ~30 min til its fully warmed up, then park it while getting something to eat. Taking out the chain slack did help a lot. And another thing I noticed is the front right fork seems to have a bit of play in it which I don't think it is supposed to have: almost as if its got a bad plastic guiderod bushing(?) When I eyeball it at highway speeds, it seems to wobble occasionally front to back in relation to the bike. I had a minor skid since my last post, and now it seems to be leaking gas from somewhere, so there's that too...... I think it may just be time for a new air filter, MAP sensor, fuel injector o-rings, TB grommets, and gluing on some new vacuum tubing to eliminate any chance of an air/vacuum leak. Engine seems sluggish, or it only wants to accel right when jackrabbiting (like with lots of vacuum registering to the ECU), otherwise it just bogs. I'll probably vent the fartpipe somewhere other than the airbox, and just cap that airbox port off. I checked my compression on a cold engine. Each cyl was registering ~145psi and climbs to ~170psig, so I'm not exactly sure its the rings. I think it may just be a warped head, or intermittent-leak headgasket due to temp spikes every now and then. A guy once told me to 'fix' the IAT sensor with one wrap of electrical tape on the tip so you get better/more consistent accel. Who knows if that's true though. You can always get a compression tester off amazon for ~$30. But I'd think if you didn't have good compression on one cyl, you would know pretty damn quick.

2005 CBR600RR - bone stock
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post #24 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-03-2017, 11:52 PM Thread Starter
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Guys, Im embarrassed to have to type this, but it was just an unevenly stretched drive chain.
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post #25 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-04-2017, 02:00 AM
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Thanks for posting your solution. Also kudos for checking one thing a time.

Any stuck links in your chain or weird wear on your sprockets?
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post #26 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 06:46 PM Thread Starter
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No, no frozen links that I could find. The sprockets were ok looking, no hooking or anything, but I still swapped them.

I never thought I could feel it in neutral or with the clutch pulled in, and I thought the sprockets looked good, so the chain was always low on my list.

I actually started thinking it was the chain after reading about guys jetting and rejetting carbs for what they thought was a lean surge only to find out their chain was garbage. I knew that was it when I picked the back end up with some ratchet straps and a convenient back porch. Put it in gear and watched the chain loosen and tighten. It made the back tire jump as the tight spot went around.
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