Bike is misfiring after wheelie? - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 07:14 PM Thread Starter
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Bike is misfiring after wheelie?

Hi Everyone... hopefully someone can help me narrow this down.

I did a lot to my bike over the winter.. here's the list of mods/maintenance that I did.

PCV
Auto Tune
Quick shifter
Arrow headers
Servo Delete
PAIR Block
R6 throttle (I had to adjust slack at throttle bodies)

Replaced spark plugs
Replaced coolant


Okay... so it's happened twice now. Once I was on a group ride and I kept chopping the throttle and going on (live I've done before without issue) just being an idiot and the bike started misfiring, started sounding very weird like a growl sound out of the exhaust and obvious I lost about half my power.

After about 60 seconds it went away though and didn't do it again.

Now fast forward to today I was riding home and popped a tiny 4 inch wheelie in first gear by chopping the throttle. It brought the wheel up and I landed shortly after then about 2 seconds after it started misfiring again.. luckily I was about 5 minutes from home so I rode it home and it still was doing it even at idle in the drive way. When I turned the bike off and waited about 1 minute and turned it back on it was running fine again...

I don't get it.. any ideas? I'm guessing it has something from me replacing the spark plugs? I put stock NGK ones in it and checked the gap... It's weird how this only happens when I mess with the throttle. Like chopping it on that wheelie or when I was opening and closing it a lot.

Edit: I also have had my bike in my difference scenarios like it running hot in traffic or going 150+ on highway and it never did it during those times

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Last edited by hero danny; 04-17-2017 at 08:34 PM.
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post #2 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 11:28 AM
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If you had very low fuel it could have happened that you starved the bike while popping that weelie... then you came down... fuel took 60s to fill the system again...

It's a maybe... but nothing good came out of a wheelie, ever...

(except if you were Evil Kanievel)



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post #3 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 11:57 AM
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my guess is the PCV or the mapping. you can test it by just unplugging it entirely from the system.
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post #4 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 02:35 PM
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Bypass the bank angle sensor and try to replicate the issue.


Connect the outside two wires in the connector. You can do it temporarily with a paper clip and some electrical tape
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post #5 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 04:42 PM Thread Starter
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I really appreciate all of you taking the time to help me out. Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soponcio Virtual View Post
If you had very low fuel it could have happened that you starved the bike while popping that weelie... then you came down... fuel took 60s to fill the system again...
I had plenty of fuel so I really doubt that was it... again this was like a 3 inch wheelie. Last year I was doing 1 foot high wheelies pretty consistently and it never did this to me.

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Originally Posted by trachito View Post
my guess is the PCV or the mapping. you can test it by just unplugging it entirely from the system.
You don't think it could be my spark plug wires? My friend said that sometimes when you unclip them if you do it wrong you can slightly damage the clip and it will arch out every now and then. I did replace the plugs but don't remember ever having an issue with the clips.

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Originally Posted by wibbly View Post
Bypass the bank angle sensor and try to replicate the issue.


Connect the outside two wires in the connector. You can do it temporarily with a paper clip and some electrical tape
permission to wheelie? :)

Wouldn't the bank angle sensor shut down all cylinders? Not just 1-2? Btw there were no FI lights or anything like that during these times of misfiring.

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post #6 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 05:34 PM
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Instead of questioning everything and doing nothing, try doing something. It's amazing what you can accomplish when you actually do things. It will cost you about 2mins of work to do it.


Did you have your throttle bodies off when you did the r6 tube? Are they seated properly?

Is the 6 wire connector for the ignition coils properly secured? Did you unplug it?




It could be a lot of very easy to check things, so it stands to reason that one should check them instead of making assumptions.



Ultimately you will be solving the problem, not anyone here
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post #7 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 05:35 PM
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Probably worth unplugging the quick shifter as well.
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post #8 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 09:45 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wibbly View Post
Instead of questioning everything and doing nothing, try doing something. It's amazing what you can accomplish when you actually do things. It will cost you about 2mins of work to do it.


Did you have your throttle bodies off when you did the r6 tube? Are they seated properly?

Is the 6 wire connector for the ignition coils properly secured? Did you unplug it?




It could be a lot of very easy to check things, so it stands to reason that one should check them instead of making assumptions.



Ultimately you will be solving the problem, not anyone here

Yeah, I had to work late and couldn't ride today... i'll try tomorrow to replicate the issue. I appreciate all your help Wibbly.

I didn't have the throttle bodies off, I just adjusted the slack with them on. I did have to unplug the ignition wires. I think i'll start with that. Once I replicate the issue I will go ahead and remove the tank fairing (dreading that!) and then give it a try again. I will make sure I post up what I find.

Thanks again for your help, i'm sure you know the feeling when something isn't working, kinda makes you feel sick inside lol

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post #9 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 10:20 PM
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you can bypass the bank angle sensor very easily, you just need to pull the small plastic insert from the left side of the front. the plug for the BAS sits behind it. will take you about 2 mins. (you can remove this piece by popping the side panel out of the tank cover, removing the bolt, and the trim clip from the inside, then working it out. it's pretty simple.


the plug for the coils you should be able to reach without removing anything. two of the coils are fed 12v from one wire, and the other two are fed from another. these two positives are actually from the same line, they split off in a splice hidden in the harness where the positive also takes off for the bank angle sensor. the plug has 6 wires in it, the two positives, and the four individual negatives that go to the ecu to be switched to ground to generate a spark.


if you didn't have the TBs off then nevermind, if your TBs aren't properly seated you can get all kinds of weird bucking and surging, thought maybe an errant wheelie dislodged them (i've seen it before). it's basically just an enormous vacuum leak.



those two checks should take you about 10 mins. no big deal
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post #10 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 02:07 PM
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i strongly doubt it's the BAS. it's job is to turn off the fuel pump when triggered which would shut off all the cylinders. or does it shut off the spark on this bike? on my 1krr, it shuts off the fuel delivery.

Last edited by trachito; 04-19-2017 at 02:16 PM.
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post #11 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 07:22 PM Thread Starter
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Well, little update... I took the bike out today and tried to replicate the issue. I chopped the throttle a bunch and even wheelied it 6-7 times about a foot high and it never did it.. so I don't know, I guess I cannot replicate the issue so it's going to be hard to diagnose it.

It's only happened twice in the last 500 miles..hmm..

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post #12 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 07:26 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trachito View Post
i strongly doubt it's the BAS. it's job is to turn off the fuel pump when triggered which would shut off all the cylinders. or does it shut off the spark on this bike? on my 1krr, it shuts off the fuel delivery.
That's what i don't understand either. I figured if it was a sensor of some sort it would shut the whole bike down, not just 1-2 cylinders. I'm guessing one of the coil plugs is just arching out or something? If it does it again i'm going to reach down there and just rotate them all if I can and hope that fixes it, if it keeps being a problem then i'll remove them completely and replace them.

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post #13 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 08:07 PM
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did any lights on the dash come on?


the bank angle sensor kills the bike, but if it was just a matter of it rattling around then it would make the bike run like a bag of assholes.


given that none of us but the op were on the bike when this happened it's a lot harder to say.


of course the BAS is a long shot, but stranger things have happened, and as i said it takes literally 2 mins to get to the connector.




it could be that he never seated the coils properly on the new plugs, that's a check that takes about 2 mins as well.




as i said before, you aren't going to get any resolution by doing nothing.
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post #14 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 08:43 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wibbly View Post
did any lights on the dash come on?


it could be that he never seated the coils properly on the new plugs, that's a check that takes about 2 mins as well.




as i said before, you aren't going to get any resolution by doing nothing.
Nope, no lights came on...

actually I have a video of the bike running after the misfire if that's any benefit. It just sounded like one of the cylinders wasn't running, the bike was still moving though and working.

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post #15 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 10:43 PM
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When you put the coils back on did you get a pronounced click click click as you installed them?


Also is your power commander still auto tuning?
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post #16 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 11:55 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wibbly View Post
When you put the coils back on did you get a pronounced click click click as you installed them?


Also is your power commander still auto tuning?
I can't remember if I heard a click or not this was like 4 months ago, but I've done lots of plugs in the past and never did one wrong. Either way i'll check them again and make sure they click click back in.

Yes the PCV is still auto tuning.

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post #17 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 12:18 AM
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The intention of the auto tune is to build a table and then disable auto tuning.

It's not for full time closed loop operation like your car.


Have you actually checked on the progress of the auto tune or did you load a base map and forget about it?
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post #18 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-02-2017, 09:43 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wibbly View Post
The intention of the auto tune is to build a table and then disable auto tuning.

It's not for full time closed loop operation like your car.


Have you actually checked on the progress of the auto tune or did you load a base map and forget about it?
Sorry for late response.

I didn't know that. You know what's funny is the other day I was riding and the bike developed a flat spot right at around 5k rpms, it would pull hard up until about that 5k then it would surge or buckle for a second and then pull hard again all the way to redline. I was far from home so I just dealt with it for about 3 hours doing it consistently, I turned the bike off and on multiple times throughout the day. I know the secondary injectors engage after 5k and half throttle which is what I thought was going on..

Anyway, I got home that day and connected my computer to the PCV and the autotune had a ton of things it wanted to change, so I let it. I took it out for a ride and the flat spot was pretty much gone, it did it a couple times more, but for the most part it was smoothed out.

The next day I took it out again (after marking further changes) and the bike seemed to be running good, I was riding down the street and it started misfiring again. I pulled over and the bike was gurgling so I turned it off and turned it back on and suddenly she became an inline 4 again. I rode her around some more and about 25 minutes later she did the same thing, I immediately kill switched the bike and rebooted it while coasting and it went away again... didn't do it again that day.


It's just weird. I am going to take your advice and disable the autotune and see if that makes a difference. I will also be contacting DynoJet and ask them what they think.

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Last edited by hero danny; 05-02-2017 at 09:45 AM.
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post #19 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-02-2017, 02:18 PM Thread Starter
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Ok... this is what DynoJet said to me. "It is up to the end user to decide whether to remove Auto-tune after the map has become well tuned or to leave Auto-tune on all of the time.

I would say that if you are going to leave it on all of the time, you might want to either turn the max allowable trim down to +/-10%, and/or you might also want to wipe out any Target AR values you have in the 0-5% throttle range.

Let me know if you have any further questions."

They didn't touch upon my misfire issue at all despite me telling them about it... Oh well, i'm going to try disabling auto tune first and if it still does it then i'm going to take off the plugs wires and reseat them.

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post #20 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-02-2017, 02:56 PM
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What is your max allowable trim?

You have pulled the pair system correct? Have you removed the exhaust?
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post #21 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-02-2017, 07:18 PM
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Don't undo the plug wires just yet. That's alot of work for something you felt confident about. Disable the autotune and pcv and quickshifter first (preferrably one at a time) and see if that fixes the issue. Those things can affect fueling and ignition, respectively.

Might as well check the low hanging easy stuff first.
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post #22 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-03-2017, 08:38 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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What is your max allowable trim?

You have pulled the pair system correct? Have you removed the exhaust?
I left it on default so it's +/- 20 (Wow... I guess looking back that is a bit high...)

I blocked the pair system, and yes the exhaust was removed and replaced with Arrow headers akra slip on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keeblerkhan View Post
Don't undo the plug wires just yet. That's alot of work for something you felt confident about. Disable the autotune and pcv and quickshifter first (preferrably one at a time) and see if that fixes the issue. Those things can affect fueling and ignition, respectively.

Might as well check the low hanging easy stuff first.
Yeah good point... I disabled the autotune and we'll see if it does it again, if so i'll disable the quickshifter and work down the line.

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post #23 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-03-2017, 10:49 AM
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i would double check where the header meets the head for leaks, and i would also avoid riding around pulling the throttle all herky jerky like you said you have.


load a base map, enable auto tune (after you check for leaks), go ride like a normal person, build a map, disable auto tune, then have fun.


keeping auto tune active isn't going to help you. the idea isn't to run your bike in a continuous closed loop.
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post #24 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-03-2017, 10:35 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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i would double check where the header meets the head for leaks, and i would also avoid riding around pulling the throttle all herky jerky like you said you have.
Any tips on checking for leaks? It doesn't sound like there is any. Do I just cover the exhaust and listen?

Yeah pulling the throttle herky jerky was just me trying to replicate the misfire, I don't ride like that haha

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post #25 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-04-2017, 03:40 AM
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If you cover your exhaust the engine will die. Just feel with your hand around where the headers bolt up being careful not to touch the headers themselves. They get hot quick.

I will say though, I'd highly doubt a small leak there would cause any of your symptoms.
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No, probably not. But it would lead to over fueling. And it takes 10 seconds to check.


Load a zero map in the pc and try again. Easiest way to start
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post #27 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 09:24 AM Thread Starter
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I tried checking for any exhaust leaks but it's really difficult to fit my hand in there. I checked around for any discoloration and everything appeared okay... It is interesting you say that though because when I removed my stock exhaust some of the exhaust bolts removed the threads with them, I torqued everything down to torque specs but I do notice that some are not as far in as others despite being just as tight... I will try and get down there and fix that soon not sure how though... maybe I need new exhaust bolts?

Okay so I had the Auto tune turned off and it still did it again yesterday. I'm going to disable the quickshifter next and try again. :(

I was talking to my friend about it and he said his bike did the same thing last year (his is an R6) he said it started like mine, where it would do it every now and then, until eventually it just did it all the time. What ended up being the issue was the coil was causing the spark to arch out Which would cause the misfire. He had them all replaced and the issue hasn't happened again.

I don't see how, but I must have somehow damaged the coils somehow when I was doing the plugs or the plug wires. I think the next step would be for me to remove the fairings, get back down to the headers and replace those header bolts, then check the coils for any burns/etc.

Quick question, if I can wait until my bike starts misfiring again and then pull over is there a way I can somehow figure out which cylinder is doing it? I thought maybe put a screwdriver on the header and then rev the engine and if it vibrates then I know that cylinder is firing? I can't check it with a IR thermometer because all of the headers are probably going to be hot after riding.

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post #28 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
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I tried checking for any exhaust leaks but it's really difficult to fit my hand in there. I checked around for any discoloration and everything appeared okay... It is interesting you say that though because when I removed my stock exhaust some of the exhaust bolts removed the threads with them, I torqued everything down to torque specs but I do notice that some are not as far in as others despite being just as tight... I will try and get down there and fix that soon not sure how though... maybe I need new exhaust bolts?
Torque measured when putting bolts in is just how hard it is to turn the bolt. It doesn't necessarily mean it is seated and performing its intended function. If the threads in the holes or on the bolts got damaged, then you could easily have reached the torque spec without the bolt actually holding the header flange to the engine tightly.

From your description it sounds like you'll need to go in and fix the threaded holes on the engine with helicoils or something similar so you can tighten down the headers properly. Go ahead and smear the bolts with hi temp antisieze when you go to reinstall. It will make your life easier. Also when you go to remove exhaust bolts, try tightening them a smudge first to break any "welds" between threads, and then start to loosen them.

I still don't think an exhaust leak is your problem as it sounds ignition related to me more than fueling, but I'm certainly no expert.
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post #29 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 12:59 PM
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a guy would know immediately if it were an ignition or fuel issue if he was able to ride the bike while it was happening.

ignition problems are pretty obvious by the way they feel. similarly fueling issues are the same. but neither scenario is easy to describe online, so it's probably worthwhile checking whatever is easy to check during the process.

given that he disabled auto tune and (i hope) re-loaded a base map or zero map, it's unlikely to be fuel related.


i think at this point it's a matter of checking all his work. as the bike was fine before he worked on it, and not so much afterwards.
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post #30 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 02:43 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keeblerkhan View Post
From your description it sounds like you'll need to go in and fix the threaded holes on the engine with helicoils or something similar.

I still don't think an exhaust leak is your problem as it sounds ignition related to me more than fueling, but I'm certainly no expert.
I made sure to tighten by hand first as far as it would go and I tightened them as far as I felt comfortable. I knew to take extreme care when messing with it so that's why I didn't go any further with the bolt to prevent the head from snapping and I also didn't cross thread, that I am sure.

Even if there is an exhaust leak (which i'm still not sure) I am relatively sure that it is ignition. I will zero out the map next time and try once more, with everything DynoJet related turned off, quick shifter, power commander, auto tune. And I will make sure it's running stock map..

I'll admit i am a little nervous running a full exhaust system and k&n air filter on stock map.

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