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Old 10-30-2012, 06:40 AM   #1
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Advices needed for my first crash, Video included.

Hi everyone, I’ve just done my second track day at Hampton Downs, Auckland, NZ.
Unfortunately, I lowsided my 600RR at the hair pin. I still haven’t figure out why I crashed.
Can anyone give me some ideas? Lean too much? Or bad body position?
Here is the video, followed by 3 still shot captured by friend. Hope you can help me out here. Thank you!


Second video has been added for more suggestion and advice :)


Last edited by 365RR; 11-07-2012 at 01:50 AM. Reason: Add 2nd video
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Old 10-30-2012, 07:21 AM   #2
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from what I can see you're not getting your body low enough or your butt off the seat enough for knee down, so you're leaning too much & the front washed out on you.

just my opinion, I'm sure the pros will chime in though & be able to help you more
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Old 10-30-2012, 08:59 PM   #3
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Thats what it looked like to me aswelL. Seems like your focused on getting the knee down. Which shouldnt be a big worry, it will come with time.
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Old 10-30-2012, 09:52 PM   #4
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You definitely tucked the front tire, looking from the first pic at the end.

Are you changing your steering input mid-turn? That is a big No-no if you don't know what you are doing. I notice the first couple of close calls that your steering is twitchy during the turn.

When you are in a lean/turn, you have to keep the steering inputs at a minimum. If you turn the handles the wrong way you can lose traction of the front tire and lowside. What you need to do is adjust your body position or angle of lean of the bike -- never change your steering input midturn.

That is my 2cents from my experience only. I have learned that you have to be very light on the grips during the turns. Let the bike and suspension do the work for you; do not fight it. Any small input during the turn can mess you up.

Looks like it was a minor crash tho, glad your ok.
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Old 10-31-2012, 07:12 AM   #5
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Looks and sounds to me like you tucked the front because you got on the throttle too early and unweighted the front until it ran out of grip. I've done the same thing a few times. I couldnt' figure it out until I read an article called The Corner Exit Lowside by the guys who run the Penguin Racing School herre in the states. I'll try to find a link.

Edit: Here ya go.

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=781496

Last edited by Jim Moore; 10-31-2012 at 07:25 AM.
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Old 11-03-2012, 12:26 AM   #6
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did anyone click on any videos youtube pulled up after his? i just learned how to ride with a passenger and how to corner a street bike all taught by a ginger in a bikini.
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Old 11-03-2012, 04:32 PM   #7
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im no expert by any stretch but maybe you were more focused on getting your knee on the floor and worrying/wondering if you mate had captured the momentous occasion on film to show to others rather than focusing on negotiating the hair pin correctly
just a thought
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Old 11-03-2012, 05:20 PM   #8
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I'm no expert either but I can clearly see you need to work on your body position. Get a control rider to help you out at the next track day.


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Old 11-03-2012, 06:36 PM   #9
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Old 11-03-2012, 06:39 PM   #10
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Thanks you guys so much for taking the time to watch the video and sharing your thoughts, At this stage, I am about 80% sure about what happened, My bad body position leads me lean too much at this corner as I was trying too hard to knee down, and when I touched my knees, it creates a mirror supporting force upwards, that lights the front end and front tire washed out on me. thats my theory after considering all you guys have said. :)

Maybe I was trying too hard on the knee down thing, but not trying to impress anyone or the camera. I have been enjoy riding over 7 years now, never really did any impressive stunts, but get my knees down is always at my top of the list. has no guts of doing it on the public road, so at this second track day. I definitely tried too hard and too soon on my first session. One of my mate did his first knee down at the 5th session. I think my strategy was wrong as well, I should try hard later that day. Anyway, I am glad my first ever crash is on the track and no major damage to me or the bike.

I think I will keep going to the track days, and get a proper knee down when the time is right. Oh, man, this is taking forever!

Ps. One of the shitty instructor rode behind me so long and bump into me when he tried to overtake me at the 4th session. He never said anything about my riding position, maybe he just trying to enjoy his time rather than instruct other people. Damn.
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Old 11-03-2012, 06:56 PM   #11
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Thanks you guys so much for taking the time to watch the video and sharing your thoughts, At this stage, I am about 80% sure about what happened, My bad body position leads me lean too much at this corner as I was trying too hard to knee down, and when I touched my knees, it creates a mirror supporting force upwards, that lights the front end and front tire washed out on me. thats my theory after considering all you guys have said. :)

Maybe I was trying too hard on the knee down thing, but not trying to impress anyone or the camera. I have been enjoy riding over 7 years now, never really did any impressive stunts, but get my knees down is always at my top of the list. has no guts of doing it on the public road, so at this second track day. I definitely tried too hard and too soon on my first session. One of my mate did his first knee down at the 5th session. I think my strategy was wrong as well, I should try hard later that day. Anyway, I am glad my first ever crash is on the track and no major damage to me or the bike.

I think I will keep going to the track days, and get a proper knee down when the time is right. Oh, man, this is taking forever!

Ps. One of the shitty instructor rode behind me so long and bump into me when he tried to overtake me at the 4th session. He never said anything about my riding position, maybe he just trying to enjoy his time rather than instruct other people. Damn.
if you've got stands, you can practice body position at home. that's how I did it. I practiced at home with the bike on stands, got some pics then adjusted my body position from there, I thought my BP was good but the pics showed me that I was barely moving off the seat. I was also sitting too close to the tank, so when I was moving my a$$ "off" the seat, I was actually just rotating my hips & pushing my knee up the side of the bike instead of out. so I was never getting my knee down in a million years. so after I worked out the correct BP, I worked on getting into that position as quickly as possible from a typical straight line position.

I did all that then took it to a safe place to practice (again with a camera), & I got my knee down within an hour (at 30mph) because I could see where I was going wrong & fix it while I practiced.

That's just how I did it, but I don't believe knee down "just happens with time", you have to know what you're doing wrong to begin with.
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Old 11-03-2012, 10:27 PM   #12
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This is just my opinion, but the fact that you said the phrase "knee down" five times in your last post indicates that you are coming at this from the wrong direction. The end goal, in my opinion, should be to ride fast and safe. If you're preoccupied with getting a knee down, you will be slow and unsafe, as you recently found out.


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Old 11-04-2012, 04:46 AM   #13
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if you've got stands, you can practice body position at home. that's how I did it. I practiced at home with the bike on stands, got some pics then adjusted my body position from there, I thought my BP was good but the pics showed me that I was barely moving off the seat. I was also sitting too close to the tank, so when I was moving my a$$ "off" the seat, I was actually just rotating my hips & pushing my knee up the side of the bike instead of out. so I was never getting my knee down in a million years. so after I worked out the correct BP, I worked on getting into that position as quickly as possible from a typical straight line position.

I did all that then took it to a safe place to practice (again with a camera), & I got my knee down within an hour (at 30mph) because I could see where I was going wrong & fix it while I practiced.

That's just how I did it, but I don't believe knee down "just happens with time", you have to know what you're doing wrong to begin with.
Thats a very good idea, I get the exact feeling, I feel I am sliding my a.. off seat a lot, but the friends following me tell me, you merely move a bit. lol....
Do you mind share some of your practice pic or video with us? lol...

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This is just my opinion, but the fact that you said the phrase "knee down" five times in your last post indicates that you are coming at this from the wrong direction. The end goal, in my opinion, should be to ride fast and safe. If you're preoccupied with getting a knee down, you will be slow and unsafe, as you recently found out.
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Amazingly you counted that. lol... I clearly slip away my dirty little secret in my last post...thanks for you concern, but as I have said I am still putting a proper knee down on top of my motorcycle wish list...coz I still think thats the coolest maneuver in motorcycle sport. Like the carving snow in snowboard...
You know safe and fast doesn't really go hand by hand, but not so fast can go hand by hand with fun for someone like me. I am too old (maybe) and chicken (definitely) to go that fast, I rather stuck in my pathetic little world and having some stupid fun, as long as I am not crashing again, I am happy. lol...
Not everyone is a fast rider, but everyone should be a happy rider.
And believe me, I am not a that bad rider or slow rider after all.
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Old 11-04-2012, 05:28 AM   #14
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the majority of riders want or have wanted to get their knee down, the problem is, the majority of riders trying to do it don't know what they're doing wrong (like me), so a lot of people just think they aren't going fast enough, when its all in the BP. some guys can do it at very low speeds because (a) their BP is good & (b) they have the confidence to try at low speeds. like I said, I was doing 30mph when I touch down for the 1st time. I instantly lifted my knee because that scrapping sound is unnatural, I thought I was crashing lol.

but like the guys have said, its a by-product of good BP, without that you will only get your KD when its closely followed by your a$$ so be careful.

I'll look out some pics but I'm no expert on it, I just spent a long time trying to figure it out because I was doing the same as you, I even tucked the front at a TD trying to do it lol.

practice safely, you don't need to do it on the street, find yourself a big empty car park or something & keep the shiney side up
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Old 11-04-2012, 08:26 AM   #15
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I can't find my pics, must have deleted them. my vid won't really show you much if you don't know what to look for but I found an article I read while trying to fix my BP that was very good.

http://hellforleathermagazine.com/20...our-knee-down/

the pics in this are good to show what you are doing now & what you should be doing in terms of BP, they are almost a carbon copy of what I was doing wrong. if you have a read at that & practice the BP, post up some pics & we can try to help you. the bike on stands is a great way to practice
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:45 AM   #16
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Here is my take on it and tell me what you guys think. Watch the video again and look at his line. Look how far off of the apex he is. That being a hairpin corner there is going to be alot of rubber tossed off of the tires of all the riders hitting that apex tight. All that rubber is going to accumulate almost exactly where the OP's line is. Outside of the BP I think this may be the major factor contributing to him losing grip so easily.

Edit:: OP you really need to lose the focus on getting your knee down. I know from past experience that what is going through your head is the thought that you really want to get that knee down, by doing that you're not focused on the "racing" line, proper BP and proper brake/throttle input. Your knee touching down will happen when you stop worrying about it and start focusing on BP, line and proper throttle inputs. Just my .02

2nd Edit:: It also looks like you are almost man handling the handlebars.
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Old 11-04-2012, 11:57 AM   #17
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Op, what is the point of getting your knee down?
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Old 11-05-2012, 07:09 AM   #18
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Op, what is the point of getting your knee down?
It's klinda like sex. The first time you do it, you're like "OMG! That's so F****g cool! I gotta do that all the time!" Then after you do it for awhile, you start burning through knee pucks and it starts getting a little expensive. It's still cool, but not quite as cool as the first time. Actually that part is kinda like sex too now that I think about it.
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Old 11-05-2012, 07:19 AM   #19
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It's klinda like sex. The first time you do it, you're like "OMG! That's so F****g cool! I gotta do that all the time!" Then after you do it for awhile, you start burning through knee pucks and it starts getting a little expensive. It's still cool, but not quite as cool as the first time. Actually that part is kinda like sex too now that I think about it.

mmm

you need a new "knee" to "get down"
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Old 11-05-2012, 07:36 AM   #20
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It's klinda like sex. The first time you do it, you're like "OMG! That's so F****g cool! I gotta do that all the time!" Then after you do it for awhile, you start burning through knee pucks and it starts getting a little expensive. It's still cool, but not quite as cool as the first time. Actually that part is kinda like sex too now that I think about it.


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Old 11-05-2012, 02:48 PM   #21
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OK, so watch the very first corner in the video, that is all I needed to see what was going on. See how the OP initiates the turn and then it leans a bit more and then a bit more and then just at the apex of the corner there is a big dip/wobble in the front of the bike. This is clear that he is making several steering corrections in the corner (you should just make ONE input). At the same time that he is leaning the bike over he is giving more throttle. Adding throttle and lean angle at the same time is one of the leading causes of lowsides.

You need to get the bike TURNED and then once the bike is at the lean angle you want, you then start to roll on the gas.

Your body position isn't helping matters either, mostly because your inside arm is straight and looks really stiff. This will have an effect on your steering, something I'm asking you about below....

365RR, when you are cornering do you need to continue to keep pressure on the inside bar throughout the entire turn or can you press on the bar, get the bike to the lean angle you want and then release the pressure while you begin to roll on the gas?

Misti
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Old 11-05-2012, 08:04 PM   #22
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Op, what is the point of getting your knee down?
what is the point of doing anything? For example asking this question. This is deep, man......

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OK, so watch the very first corner in the video, that is all I needed to see what was going on. See how the OP initiates the turn and then it leans a bit more and then a bit more and then just at the apex of the corner there is a big dip/wobble in the front of the bike. This is clear that he is making several steering corrections in the corner (you should just make ONE input). At the same time that he is leaning the bike over he is giving more throttle. Adding throttle and lean angle at the same time is one of the leading causes of lowsides.

You need to get the bike TURNED and then once the bike is at the lean angle you want, you then start to roll on the gas.

Your body position isn't helping matters either, mostly because your inside arm is straight and looks really stiff. This will have an effect on your steering, something I'm asking you about below....

365RR, when you are cornering do you need to continue to keep pressure on the inside bar throughout the entire turn or can you press on the bar, get the bike to the lean angle you want and then release the pressure while you begin to roll on the gas?

Misti
Well, that the point gets interesting and puzzles me,
1. I honestly think I didnt push the handle bar by any means in the mid-turn or did any steering corrections.
2. "Adding throttle and lean angle at the same time is one of the leading causes of lowsides." I think this will cause lowside because of losing the back end. not in my case the front end.
3. During turning, some say I should ease my arms on the tank when turning, and put my weight on the foot pegs, and you say I should keep constant pressure on the handle bar, which in my view is a little contradicting. the way I feel I am doing right now is your way. and when I trying to lean, I feel I dont have enough leverage to keep the a constant pressure for counter-steering during my turn. I know I must sort out my BP issue first tho.
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Old 11-05-2012, 08:09 PM   #23
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something to add.

I checked my front tyre, it is very obvious the area of the left side of the front tyre has been used more than the right side. Another sign of over leaning in the hairpin?
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Old 11-05-2012, 10:50 PM   #24
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You are going to get what looks like a scraping pattern along the entire tire from your lowside. I don't know if that is what you mean by more wear. Also, you will get more wear on that side if the track run predominately to the left than the right.
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:44 AM   #25
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What i was askin is past the its cool which yes i will agree lol what do u see the point is
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Old 11-06-2012, 02:02 AM   #26
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your weight should be off the bars, but constant pressure should be used to keep the bike on that line, what misti means is once you've made your steering input & put the bike into the turn, you should keep the bars in that position til you're ready to stand the bike up on exit, one steering input maintained with pressure on the bar, not weight on the bars. your weight should be held with your legs & core muscles.

it seems in your video that you had to make a major adjustment mid-corner to save it on one lap, my guess is that you were trying to get more lean angle as you travelled through the turn (for knee down) with minor steering adjustments until you had to save it. obviously we've already established that your BP is off & because of that you added more lean, see what I mean about knee down not "just happening". once your holding yourself on the bike correctly you will have the leverage to maintain pressure on the bars.

tyre wear will increase on whichever side the track runs at most, also you may find that you are more confident in left turns than right, a lot of riders have a preferred side.

redrr308 is actaully asking a valid question, there is a fundamental reason for getting your knee down. but yes it does look cool, the holy grail as some call it lol
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Old 11-06-2012, 02:55 AM   #27
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Thank.u swan lol
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Old 11-06-2012, 03:26 AM   #28
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If I can add. Your knee down is a cool feeling, but once you get it there you are actually, from that point on, just trying to keep your knee from touching. You want it to barely scrape and then you pull your leg up a bit like you just hit a cactus. Your using your knee as a little feeler tenticale of where you are on your bike. Does that make sense or am I talking out of my arse??
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Old 11-06-2012, 03:40 AM   #29
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Jim darn it op was supposed to answer lol i maybe out of my ass as well but i know when my knee is down where im at on the tire ya im still more upright than i should be so if i touch its a warning hey u idiot ur on the edge of that tire get off of it before u drain ur bank account
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Old 11-06-2012, 03:51 AM   #30
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Jim darn it op was supposed to answer lol i maybe out of my ass as well but i know when my knee is down where im at on the tire ya im still more upright than i should be so if i touch its a warning hey u idiot ur on the edge of that tire get off of it before u drain ur bank account

Ok I will shut up lol so you feel the same way as I do when you feel your puck touch, pull up pull up lol
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