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Old 10-16-2012, 08:08 AM   #31
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I think this question is null and void....

Too many variables to tell you how to corner. The only way you will learn is practicing and figuring it out, do a track day or 2 in slow group and find your chee.

personally, I get my braking done before tipping in to corners, others dont, I also get back on the throttle as soon as I have tipped, others don't, but this creates stability for me so that's my riding style.... I am also somewhat suicidal on track days so.... what works for one does not work for you.

Parking lot practice? good for low speed manoeuvres, not open road cornering. best advice anyone can ever give you which apply's to everyone's riding style is to just relax, the bike will do your will for you.
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Old 10-17-2012, 03:01 AM   #32
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I think this question is null and void....

Too many variables to tell you how to corner. The only way you will learn is practicing and figuring it out, do a track day or 2 in slow group and find your chee.

personally, I get my braking done before tipping in to corners, others dont, I also get back on the throttle as soon as I have tipped, others don't, but this creates stability for me so that's my riding style.... I am also somewhat suicidal on track days so.... what works for one does not work for you.

Parking lot practice? good for low speed manoeuvres, not open road cornering. best advice anyone can ever give you which apply's to everyone's riding style is to just relax, the bike will do your will for you.
My question isn't asking how to corner, it is asking about the safe range of countersteering. Two different things, some of us dont have the privilege of track access.
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Old 10-22-2012, 02:49 PM   #33
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She's back people, Misti's back

To answer your question, once you have reached your desired lean angle, you apply 'maintenance' throttle until you see the exit and then smoothly and gradually add throttle to accelerate out of the corner.

About reaching your desired lean angle, I know that sometimes you can countersteer too much and let the front fold as a result, but how do you find out where that point is (without crashing)? I feel I'm always holding back a bit on my countersteering and using more body position because I'm worried about folding the front because of over countersteering. Is there a certain indicator, or a technique that can assure a rider that he is within a safe zone?
Yes, once you reach your desired lean angle you would roll the throttle on "smoothly, evenly and consistently throughout the remainder of the turn" and you essentially release the pressure on the handlebars until it is time to countersteer back out of the turn. (from Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist II)

As for your question, I'd like to clarify it a bit here. There is a difference between countersteering TOO MUCH and running out of lean angle/traction and countersteering TOO FAST. I'm not sure which one you are asking about.

We know that it is important to get your bike turned quickly and at the lean angle you want asap so that you can get back on the gas. Keith Code says that provided the conditions are dry and you aren't using the front brake, you cannot countersteer the bike fast enough to simply tuck the front tire. Moto GP and top level racers are snapping the bike over fast and it is not the motion of quick steering that will tuck a front tire (in good dry conditions).

However, you can countersteer too much or kind of oversteer in a corner, meaning if you are making a right hand turn you could press on that right handlebar for too long resulting in the bike leaning over too much. (Body position and line play a role in this as well). The longer you countersteer through a turn the more the bike will continue to lean over farther and farther.

This ties into my original question about what to do once the bike is at the lean angle you want. Most riders think that they need to continue to "steer" or keep pressure on that inside bar throughout the entire turn but that is not the case. They end up leaning over too far or getting too far to the inside of the turn so they have to make mid turn steering corrections.

Get the bike to the lean angle you want and then STOP PRESSING THE INSIDE BAR.

Does this answer your question? How many times do you want to turn a bike in a corner?

Misti
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Old 10-22-2012, 03:46 PM   #34
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Watch MotoGP! Watching their technique, I have learned so much about cornering. Im sure no squid can keep up with me thru a turn. Just be a little more careful with the cold concrete...
The specifics on what to do, I feel, should be a natural instinct.
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:59 PM   #35
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throttle control and be setup before each turn will majorly help. Starting out you def don't want to over do it and come in hot. Take it slow and focus on proper braking and gear before turning into the turn..after that its all throttle control to make it smooth as glass. It'll come in time!
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Old 10-22-2012, 05:02 PM   #36
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Misti knows her stuff, helped me go from nearly crashing on the twisties to draggin knee and proper form in 2 weekends...can't thank her enough :)

just sucks my bike got stolen :( Not selling my gear though, plan on getting a new one for next season or the year after..depending on cash flow.
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Old 10-23-2012, 06:29 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by misti hurst View Post
Yes, once you reach your desired lean angle you would roll the throttle on "smoothly, evenly and consistently throughout the remainder of the turn" and you essentially release the pressure on the handlebars until it is time to countersteer back out of the turn. (from Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist II)

As for your question, I'd like to clarify it a bit here. There is a difference between countersteering TOO MUCH and running out of lean angle/traction and countersteering TOO FAST. I'm not sure which one you are asking about.

We know that it is important to get your bike turned quickly and at the lean angle you want asap so that you can get back on the gas. Keith Code says that provided the conditions are dry and you aren't using the front brake, you cannot countersteer the bike fast enough to simply tuck the front tire. Moto GP and top level racers are snapping the bike over fast and it is not the motion of quick steering that will tuck a front tire (in good dry conditions).

However, you can countersteer too much or kind of oversteer in a corner, meaning if you are making a right hand turn you could press on that right handlebar for too long resulting in the bike leaning over too much. (Body position and line play a role in this as well). The longer you countersteer through a turn the more the bike will continue to lean over farther and farther.

This ties into my original question about what to do once the bike is at the lean angle you want. Most riders think that they need to continue to "steer" or keep pressure on that inside bar throughout the entire turn but that is not the case. They end up leaning over too far or getting too far to the inside of the turn so they have to make mid turn steering corrections.

Get the bike to the lean angle you want and then STOP PRESSING THE INSIDE BAR.

Does this answer your question? How many times do you want to turn a bike in a corner?

Misti
It certainly isn't countersteering too fast, or flicking the bike as it is referred to in TWOT. I am not running out of lean angle or available traction as I still dont have the confidence to lean the bike much. I enter the corner (maintaining weight off handlebars) slowing down on engine braking and then I get on the gas midcorner whilst steering and leaning OFF the bike and many times end up going wide. I think the problem is I'm not countersteering enough. I remember you told me to not keep pressure on the handlebar, but when I accelerate I feel I'm going wide so I try to apply pressure to make the turn or get off the throttle
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Old 10-23-2012, 06:44 AM   #38
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Misti knows her stuff, helped me go from nearly crashing on the twisties to draggin knee and proper form in 2 weekends...can't thank her enough :)

just sucks my bike got stolen :( Not selling my gear though, plan on getting a new one for next season or the year after..depending on cash flow.
I'm very sorry to hear that, hang tight, hopefully you nail the bastard and get your ride back.
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:12 PM   #39
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It's all good, i made 2k off my bike being stolen which helped with other loans. Had to buy a new vehicle so im tight on money, just hoping i can put back enough during the winter to make a nice down payment on a new bike. Still plan on getting 08 graffiti edition when i do get another.
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Old 10-24-2012, 07:16 AM   #40
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One thing to remember here, when you get on the throttle varies from one corner to another.

An early apex corner you will get on the throttle after the apex, a late apex corner you are on the gas before the apex.

Same applies to braking, an early apex corner will have you trail braking often through the apex of the corner, where as you don't usually trail brake at all in a late apex corner, they are typically point and shoot corners-although not always, but quite often.
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"at 8k i often get the tire to slip a bit(kinda like stoner in motogp) when i start to get on the throttle"
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Old 10-24-2012, 12:38 PM   #41
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Great thread, I was just wondering about proper cornering yesterday. One thing I've always thought about was is it better to be in a higher gear (lower RPMs) or a lower gear (higher RPMs) when going in? I find throttle control is a lot easier when the RPMs are lower or I'm in one gear higher since the roll on feels smoother and less snappy. What do you guys usually do?
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Old 10-24-2012, 01:12 PM   #42
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I was doing lower rpms when I made this thread but I've changed to higher rpms now. The roads I've been riding around here are speed limit of 35 - 45mph, corners are 90 degrees or more and lots of them back to back. I like to stay in second just to use the engine braking, not sure if it's proper form but it seems to make it easier for me, plus I'm not needing to worry about shifting.
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Old 10-24-2012, 01:36 PM   #43
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If you ever have a doubt you should always go a gear higher. It's the safer route. The bike will always be more responsive (touchy) in a lower gear/higher revs.
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"at 8k i often get the tire to slip a bit(kinda like stoner in motogp) when i start to get on the throttle"
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Old 10-24-2012, 01:45 PM   #44
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High rmps is usually the case for most corners, but there are cases where you'll be in lower rpms, very sharp slow turns. Whether your bike is stock geared or not makes a big difference also. stock gearing, most riders on twisties that you just spoke of will be in no higher than 3rd gear at any time. 1st and 2nd being used most often. With higher gearing youll be able to hold higher rpms in a higher gear thus allowing you to use 3rd more often and even hit that 4th gear on any sort of straight. Of course all this is depending on each corner type and distance between 2 corners. There is no way of saying exactly what gear to use, unless your on a track where its common to mark where to brake and what gear to be in for each turn. On twisties there is just to many turns to do such a thing. I like to keep my rpms around 8k regardless of the turn or gear, keeps throttle control smooth for me and the bike screams out of each apex. Just have to find your sweet spot and comfort zone. at 8k i often get the tire to slip a bit(kinda like stoner in motogp) when i start to get on the throttle. Remember when your exiting a turn, stay in your position leaned off, even while your pinning the throttle, this keeps the bike more stable on exit and gives better drive out. This method basically lets Physics do the work for you, as the bike exits it naturally straightens up which obviously lifts you up higher as your lean angle decreases. Once the bike has came to its normal position, slide back in line with the bike. Watch motogp and you'll see exactly what im talking about on their exits.

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Old 10-24-2012, 02:38 PM   #45
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Great tips, thanks guys. Seems like going in slightly lower RPMs is the safer/smoother thing to do, for the time being at least. Lower gears the throttle feels very snappy for me so a higher gear on most turns will be a smoother roll on. All depends on situation though! Right gear for the turn.
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Old 10-24-2012, 03:40 PM   #46
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at 8k i often get the tire to slip a bit(kinda like stoner in motogp) when i start to get on the throttle
:crac kup:
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Old 10-24-2012, 03:50 PM   #47
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^ enlighten? If you do not slip at all on corners then your slow or your tires aren't warmed up enough. When i stated slip i didnt mean a full drift, just from the bike torque out of the corner..which is normal unless you ***** it out of the corner
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Old 10-24-2012, 04:03 PM   #48
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^ enlighten? If you do not slip at all on corners then your slow or your tires aren't warmed up enough. When i stated slip i didnt mean a full drift, just from the bike torque out of the corner..which is normal unless you ***** it out of the corner
If you're spinning the rear at 8k rpm on a 600, you're either riding at the beach or it's raining.

And I love the comparison to Stoner, that's AWESOME! lol

But I'm super slow anyway, so what do I know...
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Old 10-24-2012, 04:11 PM   #49
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^ enlighten? If you do not slip at all on corners then your slow or your tires aren't warmed up enough. When i stated slip i didnt mean a full drift, just from the bike torque out of the corner..which is normal unless you ***** it out of the corner
I should point at that your tires will spin up easier cold than they will once they get to operating temps. That applies mostly to race tires, streets don't vary as much in grip level. But streets overheat much easier and get very slippery, which is a BAD thing as you have over heated the tire.
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Old 10-26-2012, 11:39 PM   #50
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Misti knows her stuff, helped me go from nearly crashing on the twisties to draggin knee and proper form in 2 weekends...can't thank her enough :)

just sucks my bike got stolen :( Not selling my gear though, plan on getting a new one for next season or the year after..depending on cash flow.
Thanks :) Glad I could help!!! Sorry about your bike though.....

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It certainly isn't countersteering too fast, or flicking the bike as it is referred to in TWOT. I am not running out of lean angle or available traction as I still dont have the confidence to lean the bike much. I enter the corner (maintaining weight off handlebars) slowing down on engine braking and then I get on the gas midcorner whilst steering and leaning OFF the bike and many times end up going wide. I think the problem is I'm not countersteering enough. I remember you told me to not keep pressure on the handlebar, but when I accelerate I feel I'm going wide so I try to apply pressure to make the turn or get off the throttle
OK, I think I know what is going on here. So, you aren't turning the bike too fast and you aren't leaning it over too much to run out of lean angle but you are finding yourself running wide so you have to make a steering correction. Based on what you said about "getting on the gas whilst steering and leaning off the bike..." I'd say that the issue has to do with the RATE at which you are steering the bike.

If you come up to a corner and you lazily steer the bike, or lean the bike over slowly what might happen?

What would happen if you came to that same corner and snapped it over as quick as the GP guys?

Misti
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Old 10-29-2012, 06:03 AM   #51
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^ enlighten? If you do not slip at all on corners then your slow or your tires aren't warmed up enough. When i stated slip i didnt mean a full drift, just from the bike torque out of the corner..which is normal unless you ***** it out of the corner
I have never experienced this at the track mate, and I usually leave a corner fully pinned at over 8k. U got a big rear sprocket or something?
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Old 10-30-2012, 02:20 AM   #52
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Thanks :) Glad I could help!!! Sorry about your bike though.....



OK, I think I know what is going on here. So, you aren't turning the bike too fast and you aren't leaning it over too much to run out of lean angle but you are finding yourself running wide so you have to make a steering correction. Based on what you said about "getting on the gas whilst steering and leaning off the bike..." I'd say that the issue has to do with the RATE at which you are steering the bike.

If you come up to a corner and you lazily steer the bike, or lean the bike over slowly what might happen?

What would happen if you came to that same corner and snapped it over as quick as the GP guys?

Misti
I am pleased to report that out of the blue my cornering (which sucked so bad it made want to hang myself) has improved immensely because I leaned the bike slightly more than I ever had the last time I rode and have entered and exited at a higher speed than I am used to. I discovered with all the talk about how we are suppose to use the outside foot peg for leverage to lock our knee into the tank that I had a force distribution on the pegs of (90% outside, 10% inside) so I basically was countering my own steering slightly by putting so much force on the outside pegs and holding up my weight with my torso and outside leg only. I was always worried about my inside foot slipping so I just pressed hard on it and Voila! I use to run wide at around 85% and now I run wide at 15%. I think I still have the problem of not steering the bike fast enough, but I am slowly working up the courage to steer quickly after making the aforementioned adjustment which felt like euphoria as I never felt that connected to the bike before. I hope I am finally on the right track.

@Mickking, you either are making phenomenal strides in your riding or something is just...weird. To ride like Stoner (in the corners with that sort of tire slippage) requires bucketloads of skill. If you are there already, then my hats off to you. Many intermiediate riders snap the throttle shut when they feel the tires slipping, to control that after what you have claimed to have was limited riding experience is just a bit far fetched, but if you can get some shot or video of you doing that, it would be great to check out.
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Old 11-05-2012, 02:37 PM   #53
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I am pleased to report that out of the blue my cornering (which sucked so bad it made want to hang myself) has improved immensely because I leaned the bike slightly more than I ever had the last time I rode and have entered and exited at a higher speed than I am used to. I discovered with all the talk about how we are suppose to use the outside foot peg for leverage to lock our knee into the tank that I had a force distribution on the pegs of (90% outside, 10% inside) so I basically was countering my own steering slightly by putting so much force on the outside pegs and holding up my weight with my torso and outside leg only. I was always worried about my inside foot slipping so I just pressed hard on it and Voila! I use to run wide at around 85% and now I run wide at 15%. I think I still have the problem of not steering the bike fast enough, but I am slowly working up the courage to steer quickly after making the aforementioned adjustment which felt like euphoria as I never felt that connected to the bike before. I hope I am finally on the right track.

@Mickking, you either are making phenomenal strides in your riding or something is just...weird. To ride like Stoner (in the corners with that sort of tire slippage) requires bucketloads of skill. If you are there already, then my hats off to you. Many intermiediate riders snap the throttle shut when they feel the tires slipping, to control that after what you have claimed to have was limited riding experience is just a bit far fetched, but if you can get some shot or video of you doing that, it would be great to check out.
Great! Glad you were able to make such awesome improvements in your riding :) Feeling connected to your bike and having lower body stability is huge in helping with your overall cornering skills and confidence.

It sounds like you are feeling more and more comfortable with getting the bike turned quickly and that you are in the right body position to get it done effectively.

Sometimes, even when a rider is really confident with being able to get the bike turned quickly and even when they are consciously riding with the intent of turning the bike quickly they aren't able to get the bike leaned over as fast as they would like. It is almost as if the hands don't listen to the brain. The brain is saying, "snap it over hard!" While the hands are hesitant and almost saying, "no way."

Have you ever thought about how your visual skills might play a role in how quickly you are able to turn your bike?

For example, if you had a rider that had a very solid reference point in the middle of a corner and a rider that was still a little bit lost or vague with his reference points, who do you think would be able to turn the bike quicker? Why?

Misti
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