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Old 11-05-2012, 11:06 AM   #1
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Self Defense on a Bike

At what point would self defense be considered legal against a car while riding?

Had an incident this weekend. While I was riding down some old highway I got behind this driver that obviously hated ppl on bikes. My cousin passed them and they served at him. I tried to follow and then they came half way in the other lane trying to hit me. I got trapped behind the prick with no where really to turn off/around. For miles, they served at me, slowed down when I would and then either slammed on the breaks or sprayed their windshield wipers which went over the roof and was spraying me. On top of all of this, I'm almost sure it was a middle-age or older couple (not kids) but had what looked like a small kid in the back (prob their kid or grandkid)

Now I've dealt with idiots, but no one that intentionally tried to run me off a road for nothing. We weren't speeding, riding their butt, stunting. Just enjoying a nice ride. I forgot their license plate b/c I was so flustered. Just wondering if anyone has dealt with this before. Planning on talking to my police department to see what options I would of had legally. Think its time to get my concealed permit. Ppl are getting crazy these days...no value for human life
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:10 AM   #2
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this was just this past saturday on my way to work and i'm pretty sure this wasnt the first run in i've had with this ass-hat. i didnt get the plate but am going to call in a min to report him just to have it on record so if i do have to defend my life there will be a record of his hostile driving towrads other drivers and me in perticular.
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:21 AM   #3
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I would just safely pull over if possible
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:41 AM   #4
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Pull over, problem is I get road rage sometimes, not often, more so when there are just complete a$$hats doing dumb **** so I tend to follow after an incident. Saturday I was bringing my bike to a shop, mind you I live in the Chicago suburbs so it is fairly busy. I was had a 50 mile ride on a major highway. The exit ramp that I needed was a 2 lane half mile long ramp. I had a guy serve at me multiple times, so I just ignored him and stayed calm. Then at the light we are stopped and I'm waiting, as soon as the light turns greens, he just swerves infront of me, almost clipping me and the trailer infront of me. Now at this point I was fuming. He took of thru traffic and I couldn't help but chase him. Dumb on my part, but in the future I need to pullover, or atleast get a plate #


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Old 11-05-2012, 11:44 AM   #5
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Yeah this was up near Fayetteville, TN. They would wait until you were in the other lane getting beside them to try to run you off. I would of turned off if there was somewhere. Old highway with no real shoulders and it was only 2 lane so I was trying to ride till we got a place to turn off. I know over the Winter I'm getting a go-pro for sure....for no other reason than ppl like this. I was just thinking that this would have to be something like "attempted vehicle homicide" or something like that. So would I have had the right to shoot out a tire or throw something at the car. Or at the very least could I have pulled out a pistol, waved it as an attempt to get them to leave me alone.
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:48 AM   #6
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I had an incident just a little bit ago.

I'll post my story once the legal issue gets sorted out.

My best advice, from someone who knows what you're talking about....its just not worth "defending yourself". Just get away from them as fast as you can. That is the bottom line.

Why?
1. You're on a bike. You're always going to lose the he said/she said battle. Unless you're a cop, or the mayor.
2. You ride a motorcycle. Piss the guy who pissed you off enough and all he has to do is "Oh, sorry officer! I didn't see the biker there!". You can get even, or you can stay alive. Pick one.
3. You're a biker. You will not win a battle against 4000lbs of steel.

And do not ever, under any circumstances, even show someone that you have a firearm unless you are 100% committed to using it. All it takes is a 911 call - "Biker with XXXX tag just pulled a gun on me!"

Cop pulls you over, finds you have a gun...and who are they going to believe? You on a bike or the middle aged couple who called you in?

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Old 11-05-2012, 11:54 AM   #7
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:02 PM   #8
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Go pro and get to know your local LEO... There is no legal and illegal answer.. It all depends on the circumstances and actually events.. Anyone who tells you fiber wise is just guessing.. Buy a go pro and firm everything that happens and take it to your local LEO and grab the action and plate ## and let the court decide..

Some guys will fight bike and I think they should but to some people your no better than them even tho they just endangered your life... But if you do it rich that person may be thrown in jail for a long while on attempted man slater and will not see light of day for a good while... Or you can get a shot or 2 and let him try to kill someone else tomorrow... You have the be smart and think long term and not with your emotions even tho we should have the right to beat the living **** out of them.


Unless you want to self carry and you better KNOW your life was being out in danger when you use it because if your wrong you won't see the light of day. But safest option is go pro and cell phone IMO..
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:04 PM   #9
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First off , thanks for the advice. I'm not one to go throwing around a pistol so that would be a last case option. But like with this situation, I had no place to turn around. I tried to slow down, but they would slow down to whatever speed I was. I had my cousin with me, so not too worried about the he said/she said and plan to get a go-pro to help in the future. I know I wouldn't win a car vs bike battle. But i know if I was trying to take out some biker behind me and he flashed a gun, I would prob leave him alone and speed up.....at least my thinking.
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:09 PM   #10
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Go pro and get to know your local LEO... There is no legal and illegal answer.. It all depends on the circumstances and actually events.. Anyone who tells you fiber wise is just guessing.. Buy a go pro and firm everything that happens and take it to your local LEO and grab the action and plate ## and let the court decide..

Some guys will fight bike and I think they should but to some people your no better than them even tho they just endangered your life... But if you do it rich that person may be thrown in jail for a long while on attempted man slater and will not see light of day for a good while... Or you can get a shot or 2 and let him try to kill someone else tomorrow... You have the be smart and think long term and not with your emotions even tho we should have the right to beat the living **** out of them.


Unless you want to self carry and you better KNOW your life was being out in danger when you use it because if your wrong you won't see the light of day. But safest option is go pro and cell phone IMO..
By the time I got a place to pull over, I had done forgotten the plate number. Wish I would have had a Bluetooth for my phone so I could of called 911 while on the bike. I know it gets down to the specific situation. I just wasn't sure if there was such thing as being able to defend yourself during such an event.
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:14 PM   #11
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First off , thanks for the advice. I'm not one to go throwing around a pistol so that would be a last case option. But like with this situation, I had no place to turn around. I tried to slow down, but they would slow down to whatever speed I was. I had my cousin with me, so not too worried about the he said/she said and plan to get a go-pro to help in the future. I know I wouldn't win a car vs bike battle. But i know if I was trying to take out some biker behind me and he flashed a gun, I would prob leave him alone and speed up.....at least my thinking.

Ok and if you had the gopro this guy would be facing legal issues as we speak. And your on a SS idk about your cousin but assuming you broth have some what decent bike and should have come to almost a complete stop then gunned it unless he's running a massive speed machine hed still have a hard time beating you guys out or just stop and wait him out. And that gun theory as yea it would work to stop you on screwing wih him a simple call from you about him showing his weapon and a white lie from you in the car just landed him in jail for possible assault or use of a deadly weapon. Like I'm saying there is no one answer but you need to help your odds out. But I wasn't there and I bet it was acary as **** and glad your here to post about it.
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:25 PM   #12
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Cousin had a zx6r. He stayed close when he got past to keep an eye on me, but he was worried if he slowed down to a stop they would run him over. I was personally in a crap spot b/c I couldnt pass the car without possibly getting hit and I was no to the road and lack knee dragging experience so even if I passed the car I was worried about him catching up. That and I didnt want to trade the risk of me getting hit with the risk of me having to do 100+mph on a unfamiliar road and wrecking myself.

Still going to go talk to the cops just for future education, but figured some of you guys would have so similar experience. I'm used to being a target for ppl anyways, but never by someone that had a vandette against bikers.
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:40 PM   #13
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If you don't mind, after you talk to the police could you post up their suggestions.

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Old 11-05-2012, 12:54 PM   #14
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If you don't mind, after you talk to the police could you post up their suggestions.

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Sure will.

These situations are happening more and more. Heck 2 months ago, locally we had some teenager that was mad at his dad so he decided that he would take his dad's gun and drive around until he found someone to shoot. Well just so happened he randomly picked some guy on a crusier riding on the interstate. The rider survived being shoot and the wreck that followed thankfully. Its normally always some punk kid or some old person that angry at the world, ready to die and ready to take whoever with them.

Pretty sad when you have to get a go-pro just to provide survillence for yourself, b/c my rides are def too boring to post lol
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:23 PM   #15
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More than likely LEO is going to tell you to stop and call the police when it is safe to do so. Do not approach/confront the other vehicle. Do not do anything, let the police handle it. Or something to that affect to protect themselves from being sued later should something happen.
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:56 PM   #16
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I agree with what I have see a few times video doesn't lie wear a cam, pull over and cool off you are much less protected then they are, and last one I don't like to use unless absolutely last resort, you are on a vehicle much more agile and better acceleration, build your riding abilities and if nothing else is left use your advantage to get ahead and disappear from them, turn off where they can't see you for instance


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Old 11-05-2012, 01:57 PM   #17
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So I'll be sending a letter to my local PD. Apparently, the guy I talked to had better things to do. First off, why when I tell them the story and ask what to do, do they ask what kind of bike I have----sterotyping incoming. He basically told me it there is no attempted vehicle homicide, they either hit you or not....so they can serve at you all day. All he did was imply that I was lying and that with me being on a sport bike that I should have been able to pass them and get away (seems like they were telling me to speed) and that even though I told them the only place to pull over was the edge of a cliff that it didn't matter.

I'll get some better answers in a day or two. My buddies neighbor is a cop and rides so I'm sure I'll get some actual answers.
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Old 11-05-2012, 02:11 PM   #18
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Just keep this in mind, any time you use lethal force or bring lethal force into a situation you have to be able to convince a jury that your life was in danger and there was absolutely 100% no other alternative. And you should never bring a firearm into a situation where you do not intend on using it. Just pulling a gun to scare someone can escalate a situation in ways you wouldn't even think of.
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Old 11-05-2012, 02:26 PM   #19
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So I'll be sending a letter to my local PD. Apparently, the guy I talked to had better things to do. First off, why when I tell them the story and ask what to do, do they ask what kind of bike I have----sterotyping incoming. He basically told me it there is no attempted vehicle homicide, they either hit you or not....so they can serve at you all day. All he did was imply that I was lying and that with me being on a sport bike that I should have been able to pass them and get away (seems like they were telling me to speed) and that even though I told them the only place to pull over was the edge of a cliff that it didn't matter.

I'll get some better answers in a day or two. My buddies neighbor is a cop and rides so I'm sure I'll get some actual answers.
Sounds like a typical LEO.. But again why he's just a lazy a** LEO and not a lawyer.. Ask your cop riding buddy for a better lead but high suggest going into a legal forum and getting some answers there.
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Old 11-05-2012, 03:47 PM   #20
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Keep a pocket full of spare change. He cuts you off, pass and unload a hand full of nickels onto his windshield.

Ride safe everyone!
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Old 11-05-2012, 03:58 PM   #21
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I was doing a mental check of what all I had on me to throw. They included my keys, wallet, and my phone. I honestly debated throwing my phone for 5 minutes...I needed a new one anyway. Prob should have done that, then I could of tracked the gps of my phone and figured out where they lived lolololol.

Yeah I quickly left the police dept. after the cop said that. If I would have let fly out what I wanted to say I might not have left. With that said...Huntsville Police Department :f you:
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:02 PM   #22
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I'd pull over and stop completely. Avoid those people. If they stop as well, they get out of the car and start approaching and you feel like your life is in danger, at this point you would have every right to open a can of whoop-ass/pull out a gun.

You have to protect your life first and worry about legal consequences later. Avoid it if possible at all but if not, you gotta do what you gotta do.

Don't aim to kill, a simple display of firearm or warning shot can do the trick.

The worst thing would be to continue the dangerous ride/fight with the cage at which point it can become a simple accident statistic instead of crime. On the positive note you could make the cover of your local newspaper "Speeding motorcyclist ran into a car and died..."
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:14 PM   #23
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Well see that is why I wanted some info from the cops. Like I said, whenever I tried to slow down, the driver would slow down to whatever speed I was doing. At what point do we have to wait until they are considered a legal threat. Is it after I stop and he gets out the car or do I have to wait for him to pull a weapon. The cop stated that it wasn't an issue until they hit me. So if I pass them, they swerve over and bash my leg can I defend myself then or do I have to wait for them to run me over. Just seems like there should be more laws protecting bikers. In AL, we have alottttttt of riders. Doctors, lawyers, teachers, cops, dentists, etc. So its not like its a bunch of young punks riding.

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Old 11-05-2012, 04:20 PM   #24
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And just an FYI, although I am pro-guns, I would be hard pressed to use one besides as a way to scare off a person. Even if a person broke into my house and deserved to be shot, I don't want that kind of baggage knowing I took someone's life. So Im def not gun happy.
Wish I was smart enough to build a EMP gun like the one on Leverage or F & F. someone try to take you out...don't worry just disable their car
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:23 PM   #25
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Don't aim to kill, a simple display of firearm or warning shot can do the trick.

The worst thing would be to continue the dangerous ride/fight with the cage at which point it can become a simple accident statistic instead of crime. On the positive note you could make the cover of your local newspaper "Speeding motorcyclist ran into a car and died..."
No need to get into a serious argument about this, but while that may work sometimes, put yourself in the mind of someone who is angry enough to chase you down and get out of their car (and presumably wants to kill you - thats why you've got your gun out after all)

Also, warning shots will get your arrested in some states. Remember, if you're pulling a gun out its because you fear imminent death. Why did you have your gun out if you only used a warning shot? (Just asking questions a grand jury would be asked)
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:29 PM   #26
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No need to get into a serious argument about this, but while that may work sometimes, put yourself in the mind of someone who is angry enough to chase you down and get out of their car (and presumably wants to kill you - thats why you've got your gun out after all)

Also, warning shots will get your arrested in some states. Remember, if you're pulling a gun out its because you fear imminent death. Why did you have your gun out if you only used a warning shot? (Just asking questions a grand jury would be asked)
Oh well, shoot him in the face then
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:03 PM   #27
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If you can justify force you can use it, in self defence. If somebody else saw what you were doing, would they agree?

In SA there was usually a shootout in the local paper each week, nature of some of the highest crime in the world, been on the wrong end of a firearm a couple times, but a policeman is in jail for shooting a guy in the back while he was running away, he was jailed because the guy had stolen a car, not endangered life it was an asset so there was no legal use of leathal force, but if the criminal had been shooting backwards at the office even if not aiming properly, it would have been legal...

Done alot of this as I'm qualified armed response in SA(it was private armed response so corporate training) you can only use lethal force if there is a 'leathal' danger to yourself or somebody else...even if a guy is in your house stealing your tv literally you have to stand back and let him, or arrest him if safe to do so but only untill a proper law enforcement official arrives(even affected us as we're not police, despite wearing armor and carrying loaded weapons, something they don't have here in the UK). Now if the guy turned and pulled a knife you could shoot, or if 3 of them turned on you, even unarmed and said you're going to die etc...again you can use force as you're outnumbered.

Carrying on a bike though, while riding you'll never probably find a situation you can shoot...and you definitely cannot shoot some guy driving away from you, but i'd still say carry if you can, maybe your at an atm drawing cash and see a guy coming at you with a knife or a gun...

So yea when your life is in danger, split seconds count, still gotta sit there and make a judgement that will have to stand for the rest of your life, so go get training
Ok see you know what I'm talking about. These days the only way you can even 100% get out of even shooting an intruder is if you are woman (coming out the mouths of LEO's I talked to after getting broke into years ago) But in my mind, a gun can be just as deadly as a car. So if she was swerving at me, multiple times at that......I would think at that point it would be safe to say my life is in danger, but I guess not.
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:04 PM   #28
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just do this, problem solved.
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:29 PM   #29
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Lmao, where do you keep something like that on your bike

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Old 11-05-2012, 05:32 PM   #30
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Idk some bungee cords on the tail fairing maybe lol


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