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Old 11-08-2012, 04:30 AM   #31
Sgt Danimal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rad Rage View Post
Not saying any of what you said is wrong, but misti hurst is definitely not wrong IF you were implying it. The rear brake is great, I love it and think it should be used in emergency stops, but I think people need to master the front first, since as you said it is 70%, then try and master the other 30%. I am a beginner trying to master both simultaneously is not a good idea. There is also the issue of how easier it becomes to lock the rear because of the weight transfer to the front end so a smoother and more controlled applicatioon of rear brake is required compared to other scenarios. So my take on it; master front, master rear, combine.

Emergency braking, stopping in the shortest distance possible in the shortest amount of time, is done utilizing both brakes... So if somehow someone states that emergency braking should be done by using only the front brakes, they are wrong. I don't care how long they've been riding... Emergency stopping is all about muscle memory. You have to execute without thinking. It's hard to do the opposite of what you taught yourself without having the time to think about what you are doing. If you are used to only using the front brake, then in an emergency situation, you are going to instinctively only use the front brake. If your situation requires you to stop in say 30 ft and given the road condition, your speed and other variable, using only 70% of your braking power allows you to stop in 33 ft, then you have to ask yourself "why couldn't I stop in time?". That other 30% you didn't use is the difference.

How can anyone think that the quickest way to stop is to use only one set of brakes when you have two?

You want to to call someone an ass for throwing the BS flag?

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Old 11-08-2012, 04:35 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Rad Rage View Post
Yup, it makes sense, you got a problem with that? If you want to explain why my approach is flawed and yours isn't, then do so.
Yep, I do. Go give poor advise somewhere else.
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Old 11-08-2012, 06:24 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt Danimal View Post
Emergency braking, stopping in the shortest distance possible in the shortest amount of time, is done utilizing both brakes... So if somehow someone states that emergency braking should be done by using only the front brakes, they are wrong. I don't care how long they've been riding... Emergency stopping is all about muscle memory. You have to execute without thinking. It's hard to do the opposite of what you taught yourself without having the time to think about what you are doing. If you are used to only using the front brake, then in an emergency situation, you are going to instinctively only use the front brake. If your situation requires you to stop in say 30 ft and given the road condition, your speed and other variable, using only 70% of your braking power allows you to stop in 33 ft, then you have to ask yourself "why couldn't I stop in time?". That other 30% you didn't use is the difference.

How can anyone think that the quickest way to stop is to use only one set of brakes when you have two?

You want to to call someone an ass for throwing the BS flag?


Here is what you need to do:

- Go back to my post and read it, maybe use some glasses this time.
- Stop putting words in people's mouths.
- Learn how to have a discussion.

Not everything is absolute.

Have the smiley.
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Last edited by Rad Rage; 11-08-2012 at 06:26 AM.
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Old 11-08-2012, 06:35 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crash277 View Post
simply put... we teach that you should squeeze your lever like your wringing out a sponge. the only on off switch on a motorcycle are the electrical ones.

you want to brake hard enough to just avoid a lock up. You will get your maximum stopping power using BOTH brakes straight up and down, if you can get them to a fraction of a squeeze away from locking up. We are not allowed to video tape our classes (something about student privacy crap). I have seen students take a cbr 125 and brake hard enough to lift the rear wheel and not crash. (also seen a few crash LoL). the bikes we use allow the students to take them to the limit in a controlled setting. i prefer to teach the emergency stopping on a titan 150. I can use only the back brake, lock it and un lock it 3-5 times before stopping. I also show them what happens when you lock the front. Sometimes i drop the bike and sometimes i recover it.

the key thing is practice practice practice. if that means you chew the **** out of a tire or 2 in a parking lot, you want to be able to react without thinking. if your brain already knows what to do you will do it faster. A key to surviving on a motorcycle is your ability to react quickly to the dangers.
Good advice, thanks.

Wringing out a sponge is a good way to put it
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Old 11-08-2012, 12:24 PM   #35
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Few things:

~With proper practice, an experienced rider can stop the bike in the shortest distance using both brakes.

~When fully utilizing your front brake you can have the rear lift off the ground. Be careful not to lock up the rear tire as almost no weight will be on the back tire.

~As with everything on these machines...they require smooth inputs.

~Make sure your knees are gripping the tank to support your weight transfer. You do NOT want to lock your arms. Keep calm and your upper body/grip relaxed.


I personally only use the rear brake when running off of the track. Next season I may play around with the idea of using it slightly more.


A few decent articles to read when you have free time:

http://www.sportrider.com/riding_tip..._hard_braking/
http://www.sportrider.com/riding_tip...e/viewall.html
http://www.sportrider.com/riding_tip...ing_potential/
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Old 11-08-2012, 05:21 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by sameh90 View Post
whoa! that was usefull... really good article...but i have a few questions:

-when you talk about locking the front wheel do you mean when braking while banking, or on a loose/slippery road?? When I hit thought brakes hard.. i go harsh up to the point when the rear begins feeling very light or slightly lift..then ease off..is it common for your front to lock up in upright position on good pavement? i thought the main concern was stoppieing..

-isn't shortest possible stopping distance done by using both brakes (slightly more upfront)?
1. When I talk about locking up the front wheel I mean while straight up and down, not while leaned over. It's never a good idea to get on the front brake hard while leaned over, if you need to brake mid corner then you should be bringing the bike upright at the same time.

It is common for the front to lock up if you squeeze the front lever hard enough, even on good pavement. Good emergency braking is when you can get on the brakes as hard as possible just before the point of lock up.

The shortest possible stopping distance can be achieved on most modern day sportbikes by using the front only as mentioned in my article. I said,(after we tested many riders with front brake only.... "To the surprise of many of the riders, the stopping distance and execution was better when they used the front brake only. I’m not saying that you have to do this, or that you shouldn’t use the rear brake at all, only that it is possible and can possibly provide better results. Try it."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt Danimal View Post
Holy crap...

Peeps, don't offer advice if you know not what you are talking about... Get somebody killed. These posts should be deleted... Help mods!

your front brake is only about 70% of your braking power... Hmmmm, so where's the rest of it?

In an emergency situation, you need to be using both brakes. You need to practice quick stops so that you are well prepared or conditioned to do it correctly when that unexpected emergency arises. It's easy to lock up the brakes, which you never want to do on a motorcycle. When you lock the brakes up, you lose traction for whichever tire is locked up.

If you do lock up the front brake, ease of the front brake till it starts rolling again then reapply as necessary.

If you lock up the rear tire, then DO NOT RELEASE THE REAR BRAKE. When you lock up the rear, your bike will almost always start "fish tailing". if your wheels aren't lined up, then when you release the rear the bike will automatically try to correct itself and the rear will kick back in line with the front wheel. This will throw you off the bike. Also known as a high side.

It's very important to practice in a controlled environment so that when the time comes, you give yourself a greater chance of successfully avoiding an accident.

And, yes, you should also be downshifting in the process. As someone said earlier, if you did manage to stop in time, nothing's says the guy behind you will. And you can't skip out of there quickly if you are in 4th gear. You want to be in first when you come to a stop. This is for routine stops as well.
If you are talking about me as being the person that "doesn't know what I'm talking about and that might get somebody killed," I'll give you my credentials:

I've been riding for 12 years, coaching at the California Superbike School as a level III coach for 8 years, been a private coach for many young racers including the late Peter Lenz, I've raced at Club level (and won the season championship), I've raced at the Canadian National Level and I raced for Two years in AMA supersport and FX, along with that I have a monthly column in Motorcycle Mojo Magazine and have been published in no less than 6 other National and US magazines.

With that being said, on modern sportbikes you can get 100% of your braking done with the front brake only. As I mentioned above we have seen great success with riders deciding to use the front brake only (on sportbikes), this is mostly due to the fact that the rear is easy to lock up so braking errors (like locking the rear and fishtailing) are made. By all means if you practice your emergency braking and are comfortable with using both brakes safely and your stopping distances are better with both (and for many they are) then do so.

If you lock up the front then you DON'T want to release and re-apply but release just enough to get the front to STOP being locked. Releasing and reapplying takes more time then releasing enough to stop the lock, every micro second counts.

Same goes with the rear brake, if you lock it up then you don't want to release it quickly but you don't want to keep it locked either. Anytime you lock the brakes you want to gently come out of the brakes until it is no longer locked.

The one thing I do agree with you on is that you should practice in a controlled environment so that you know what to expect and are more likely to do it correctly when an emergency situation comes around.

Here is a small paragraph from Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist II on this very topic, "Learn to totally rely on the front brake for quick, clean stopping; then, if you still have a use for the rear, go ahead and use it. But, realize that the rear brake is the source of a huge number of crashes both on and off the track."

Misti
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:35 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misti hurst View Post
1. When I talk about locking up the front wheel I mean while straight up and down, not while leaned over. It's never a good idea to get on the front brake hard while leaned over, if you need to brake mid corner then you should be bringing the bike upright at the same time.

It is common for the front to lock up if you squeeze the front lever hard enough, even on good pavement. Good emergency braking is when you can get on the brakes as hard as possible just before the point of lock up.

The shortest possible stopping distance can be achieved on most modern day sportbikes by using the front only as mentioned in my article. I said,(after we tested many riders with front brake only.... "To the surprise of many of the riders, the stopping distance and execution was better when they used the front brake only. I’m not saying that you have to do this, or that you shouldn’t use the rear brake at all, only that it is possible and can possibly provide better results. Try it."




If you are talking about me as being the person that "doesn't know what I'm talking about and that might get somebody killed," I'll give you my credentials:

I've been riding for 12 years, coaching at the California Superbike School as a level III coach for 8 years, been a private coach for many young racers including the late Peter Lenz, I've raced at Club level (and won the season championship), I've raced at the Canadian National Level and I raced for Two years in AMA supersport and FX, along with that I have a monthly column in Motorcycle Mojo Magazine and have been published in no less than 6 other National and US magazines.

With that being said, on modern sportbikes you can get 100% of your braking done with the front brake only. As I mentioned above we have seen great success with riders deciding to use the front brake only (on sportbikes), this is mostly due to the fact that the rear is easy to lock up so braking errors (like locking the rear and fishtailing) are made. By all means if you practice your emergency braking and are comfortable with using both brakes safely and your stopping distances are better with both (and for many they are) then do so.

If you lock up the front then you DON'T want to release and re-apply but release just enough to get the front to STOP being locked. Releasing and reapplying takes more time then releasing enough to stop the lock, every micro second counts.

Same goes with the rear brake, if you lock it up then you don't want to release it quickly but you don't want to keep it locked either. Anytime you lock the brakes you want to gently come out of the brakes until it is no longer locked.

The one thing I do agree with you on is that you should practice in a controlled environment so that you know what to expect and are more likely to do it correctly when an emergency situation comes around.

Here is a small paragraph from Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist II on this very topic, "Learn to totally rely on the front brake for quick, clean stopping; then, if you still have a use for the rear, go ahead and use it. But, realize that the rear brake is the source of a huge number of crashes both on and off the track."

Misti

the ministry of transportation requires us to teach 2 wheel braking.

ive done it a few thousand times, so im comfortable using both. im also comfortable with dragging the rear (instructor advantage... free tires to practice with on smashed up bikes).


if you do not lock up your rear. you will stop shorter using both brakes. i dont see how 100% is the front only.. its friction that slows and stops you. the best brakes in the world wont stop you any better if you don't have traction. Its the loss of traction that causes a crash, not the application of the rear brake. blaming the rear brake for a crash goes along with the blaming mcdonalds cause your fat comparison.
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Old 11-10-2012, 05:58 AM   #38
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I believe the difference here is how you look at it. The front brake is much more powerful but theoretically speaking, using both brakes simultaneously with substantial competence is better than using the front alone. But naturally for us humans it is more difficult (not impossible) to attain the same competence with front and rear brake than it is with the front only. Technically you are multi tasking, which will take away some of the brain's processing power to deal with the rear brake (if using both brakes) than having all its capability focusing on the front brake and feedback from the front end. That's my theory on how the front brake alone produced better stopping distance results.
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:17 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rad Rage View Post
I believe the difference here is how you look at it. The front brake is much more powerful but theoretically speaking, using both brakes simultaneously with substantial competence is better than using the front alone. But naturally for us humans it is more difficult (not impossible) to attain the same competence with front and rear brake than it is with the front only. Technically you are multi tasking, which will take away some of the brain's processing power to deal with the rear brake (if using both brakes) than having all its capability focusing on the front brake and feedback from the front end. That's my theory on how the front brake alone produced better stopping distance results.
This is why I say you should not be here giving advice on emergency braking. Your trying to prove your point as to why using only the front brake is better when you are wrong. I've been seeing your bad and uneducated advice all over this forum. If using the the front and rear brake is too much multitasking for you to do effectively maybe you shouldn't be on a motorcycle.

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Old 11-13-2012, 02:29 AM   #40
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This is why I say you should not be here giving advice on emergency braking. Your trying to prove your point as to why using only the front brake is better when you are wrong. I've been seeing your bad and uneducated advice all over this forum. If using the the front and rear brake is too much multitasking for you to do effectively maybe you shouldn't be on a motorcycle.

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Apparently you have some serious comprehension deficiencies. If you see bad advice point it out and prepare to have a proper discussion like adults, as opposed to attacking members and claiming that they are giving out bad advice. If you think other certified instructors on here who share my perspective are wrong, well, you are entitled to your opinion. Please look up what the word theory means, I don't think you understand its meaning. I have never gave out absolute advice anywhere on this forum, it is only opinion and if it was so boldly flawed many would have pointed it out; which hasn't happened and never will. You are alone on this.
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