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Old 11-22-2012, 07:19 AM   #31
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Myths eh...



OP,

So you got some things right.... specifically the things you said were incorrect.

Unfortunately, most of the things you then went on to say were the truth are myths as well...

First off, DO NOT put warmers on street tyres. You will burn the crap out of them and cause all of the oils that are in the rubber to come out, severely reducing the life of the tyre.
Warmers are for track tyres only. No if buts or maybes about it. And yep, around the 160 mark is correct, but it changes significantly for different tyres and riders.

Next, warming of the tyres has almost nothing to do with surface friction. Doesn't matter if it's the result of swerving from side to side or braking and accelerating it doesn't make squat all of a difference to the heat of the tyre.

The heating of the tyre is caused by deformation of the tyre carcase. To be more specific, that deformation causes internal friction within the structure of the tyre generating heat. Imagine the rubber of the tyre as a whole bunch of individual pieces, as you accelerate, brake and go around corners you cause those pieces to move in relation to each other, friction happens between them.
The reason accelerating and braking does a better job of heating the tyres is because 99% of us mere mortals can't achieve the same sort of deformation by cornering as we can achieve by getting on the throttle or the brakes... it takes the likes of a GP rider and balls big enough to make en elephant jealous to get the same result by cornering.

Next, car drivers (be it stock, F1 or any other) do warm their tyres by swerving from side to side. Next thing is why? Simply because what they are driving has mass. A car thrown from side to side puts a massive load on the outside tyres causing a significant deformation, heating them up (again, it has almost nothing to do with surface friction). It's much harder to achieve the same result by accelerating and braking in a car as the weight transfer from front to back isn't as significant as side to side, although it can still be extreme when they aren't stuck behind a pace car.

Crap on the tyre (in the case of race bikes and cars)... Swerving from side to side doesn't remove squat. The low speeds and high temps that are reducing will in fact do nothing to remove stuff, and may cause it to actually sink further into the tyre as a result of it being between the tyre and the ground and the tyre cooling and getting harder. That stuff is being vulcanised into the surface. What removes the crap is getting it hot by going at race pace and the sheer centripetal forces in play at +250 km/hr. The softer tyre means stuff isn't stuck to it as well and gets thrown of easier.
On the other hand, when it comes to road tyres that aren't melting, swerving can remove stuff as the abrasive action between the pavement and the tyre will knock it loose.

New tyres are slippery. Always have been and likely will remain so for a good bit longer yet. The thing that makes them slippery is the mould release compound on the surface of the tyre, it's designed to make the rubber slippery so that it will come out of the mould easier and it doesn't magically become sticky once it leaves the mould. There have however been significant improvements over the years that mean it takes a lot less time for it to wear off the surface of the tyre. Don't absolutely thrash your bike till the shine is gone... depending on how you ride, that could be 2 miles or 200. Having said that, you don't need to baby it either, tyres are still pretty good even with mould release on them (hence if you are aggressive and good enough, it will come off real quick). And yep, you are correct in that heat plays a big part in how fast this actually happens.

Hope that clears a few things up.
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Old 11-22-2012, 10:35 AM   #32
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...... Hope that clears a few things up.
Wow, thanks for that, Nico. When's your book coming out? Seriously, that's some useful information put in a practical way, much appreciated.
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Old 11-22-2012, 11:26 AM   #33
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Everything you need to know about motorcycles by Nico
Seriously maybe you should have a book on technical things and maintenance about bikes.
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Old 11-22-2012, 12:11 PM   #34
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Good post nico and the carcas flexing is pretty much what I was trying to say and last I learned in auto shop in college is tires slap the road and it creates a good amount of heat to the tire not as much as the flex but a good amount..

And I didn't know that about the tire warmers and street tires but that makes sense. Thank you for posting that. Even if I its not from me I'm still glad the info is being put out there for people to learn.

Even my self haha mission accomplished.
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Old 11-23-2012, 09:59 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by n3dmax View Post
Everything you need to know about motorcycles by Nico
Seriously maybe you should have a book on technical things and maintenance about bikes.
lol

I could do that... chances are I'd just post it up on here though. Easier to just do this sort of thing post by post as the topics come up...

If you want to know about maintenance though have a look here: http://www.600rr.net/vb/showthread.php?t=227009

And I most certainly do not know everything there is to know!
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Old 11-23-2012, 10:04 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CK_32 View Post
Good post nico and the carcas flexing is pretty much what I was trying to say and last I learned in auto shop in college is tires slap the road and it creates a good amount of heat to the tire not as much as the flex but a good amount..

And I didn't know that about the tire warmers and street tires but that makes sense. Thank you for posting that. Even if I its not from me I'm still glad the info is being put out there for people to learn.

Even my self haha mission accomplished.
The tyre rolling on the surface does have some heat generated through friction, but that's pretty much as a result of the weight on the tyre and it squashing out as it rolls around...

One of the reasons it doesn't work to well is exactly the same reason that tyre warmers take a significant amount of time to do their job... you're trying to get heat into something that is a thermal insulator. The small amount of heat generated as a result of friction between the tyre and the road surface simply can't penetrate the tyre carcase. Friction generated through deformation on the other hand happens all through the tyre so it doesn't have to travel anywhere...
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:06 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenjin View Post
You were doing a fair bit more than rolling if you lose traction on street tires

I am betting you experienced moisture on road lines or something to that effect

In 10 years of riding I have never accidentally had a tire slip from a "cold" tire

Dumped clutch, wet road paint (condensation), and man hole covers, sure

I really wish the means to test stickyness was readily available to people so I could squish the cold street tires argument


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Agree with that, "wrecked because cold tires" is just an excuse instead of accepting they wrecked because they were riding too fast for the conditions or just screwed up. I've been riding daily for 10 years and I've never had any of my bikes slip because the rear tire was cold, and some of my bikes make some serious torque down low: XJR1300, SV1000S, XT660R.

I've had the rear tire slip because of:

- Sand.
- Soapy water.
- Debris, on the 600RR, a piece of cardboard.
- Wet painted surfaces.
- Mud (dirt and rain).

All of those have been easy to control, sure, puker moments, but didn't wreck because of that. If you wreck because the rear tire suddenly loses traction you were doing some other things wrong.
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Old 11-23-2012, 05:50 PM   #38
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Oh, the other thing is that 160 is only what you will run at with a track tyre.

As to whether or not your road tyre actually needs to be 'warmed up', IMHO not really. A road tyre is designed to work well at pretty much any temperature us mere mortals will likely get them to on the road. They will get better with a little heat but it only takes a couple of miles of normal riding to get them to that point. From a traction point of view there is really no such thing as a 'cold road tyre'.
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