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Old 10-24-2012, 03:55 PM   #1
tuck and roll
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Rear Spring rate

My 07 i bought from a top expert racer has a TTX with 1.05 spring which seems to be too stiff for me , mid pack expert, 175lbs without gear, i run comp. at 14 clicks out rebound 8 clicks out. Just don't seem to get much travel. Would a softer spring help back end from sliding around ?
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Old 10-24-2012, 04:07 PM   #2
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Yes it would help a little but what kind of valving is in it? I was running a 1.0 with c5 r7 valving at 165lbs and it worked for me. Tried backing out some more maybe? you have 20 something clicks in both ends....
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Old 10-24-2012, 04:31 PM   #3
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When you say mid pack expert, explain? You mean mid pack in advanced at track days? Or mid pack expert club racer?

^^^+1 on the valving question.

Give us an example of a lap time at a particular track.
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Old 10-24-2012, 04:33 PM   #4
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There are lots of ways to address grip issues, lets see where you're add as far as riding and what track you're riding.

Track makes a HUGE difference. A rider might run a 1.10 or 1.15 at a track like Barber because of the g-outs, but the same rider will run a 1.0 or even a .95 at a track like JGP. Tracks and riding style matter big time!
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Old 10-24-2012, 10:37 PM   #5
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I race at the Ridge, just west of olympia Wash. About 5 sec. a lap off the top experts and improving every time out. Unfortunatly i don't know the valving #'s ,the part # is HO 889 with a spring of .95 , but as i said the guy before me installed the 1.05 rode it once and sold the bike to me. I had to increase the rebound dampening and decrease comp, to get it to stop kicking my butt off the seat on bumps coming into and going around corners. Not much G-outs at the Ridge or at my home track, Mission Canada, just wondering if i should go down to .95 or is going to be to light.
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Old 10-24-2012, 11:37 PM   #6
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Other than "feeling stiff" the only issue you're having is excessive wheel spin?

You took compression out to solve pumping in the rear? And it worked?

You could definitely try a 1.0 or .95 it wouldn't hurt. Another thing you could try before having to buy anything would be to flatten the swingarm some (lower the rear ride height) that will put more leverage (weight transfer) on the rear and help with grip.

But make sure you have a suspension sheet and track the changes as well as your lap times after each adjustment.

The downside to lowering the rear is how it will change the pivot point at the apex, how does the bike rotate for you at the apex? Does it rotate fast and finish the corner nicely?
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Old 10-25-2012, 12:48 AM   #7
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Yea i had raised - lengthend- the shock 2mm before the last race of the season to combat a front wheel chatter, which i think helped, but caused scary quick turning and a big front end wobble, which i forgot about untill the brake lever came in to the grip braking in to the next corner. Ouch!
Lightening comp. and stiffening rebound definatly helped my ass getting bumped off the seat. I guess it just feels stiff, the back tire sliding a bit might be from my cut and trust riding style. After watching a video from the front of one of the fastest guy's bike, i realize i shoud be adapting a more flowing high corner speed style. I'm realizing small changes make a big differance, so i may just do the 1.0 Thanks for the help!
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Old 10-25-2012, 06:24 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuck and roll View Post
Yea i had raised - lengthend- the shock 2mm before the last race of the season to combat a front wheel chatter, which i think helped, but caused scary quick turning and a big front end wobble, which i forgot about untill the brake lever came in to the grip braking in to the next corner. Ouch!
Lightening comp. and stiffening rebound definatly helped my ass getting bumped off the seat. I guess it just feels stiff, the back tire sliding a bit might be from my cut and trust riding style. After watching a video from the front of one of the fastest guy's bike, i realize i shoud be adapting a more flowing high corner speed style. I'm realizing small changes make a big differance, so i may just do the 1.0 Thanks for the help!
Do you have a set up sheet so you can track your changes and lap times? You shouldn't ever "THINK" something worked, lol.

Yea, I would have gone the other way to solve front wheel chatter... I guess you were thinking more leverage on the front to "push" the tire into the ground. But by doing so you shortened the trail making it steer fast like that. I don't like that because with less trail you have less mechanical grip at max lean. Go too far or too fast like that and you'll start tucking the front and having to save it on your knee or with the throttle.

I would have increased trail which would increase grip. Then if it slowed the rotation too much I would have either raised the rear (which not in this case because of your rear grip issue) or took some preload out letting the front sit a little deeper in the stroke which would move the pivot point ahead of the apex.

But raising the rear might have made the rear grip issue worse. By raising the rear you increased swing arm angle and shortened the wheelbase. By lowering the rear you put leverage back on the rear and flatten the swing arm.

I am guessing you are running the OEM progressive shock linkage, right?

What's your fork height and shock length?
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Old 10-25-2012, 06:26 AM   #9
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Oh I should add, the only reason I asked about the solution to the "pumping" in the rear is because that's typically a result of the shock driving through the stroke too fast then rebounding too fast = the pumping, if you can picture it...

But if you slow down the dive and slow down the rebound, the pumping slows. Make sense?
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Old 10-25-2012, 11:59 PM   #10
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Wow, alot to think about, you must have gone through all these chassis and suspension adjustments on your 600, is there a chassis setting you settled on? I run my forks 6mm above the trees, 36-38mm sag, shock lengh 298mm, sag 32mm, and yes the stock linkage. Is there a more linnier linkage out there? I would like to just pick a good setup and concentrate on lowering my lap times, but is that just a pipe dream? Thanks for having an interest in helping this old guy trying to keep up with the kids.
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Old 10-26-2012, 12:39 AM   #11
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I'm not the greatest at explaining everything I have someone work with me(robert ward)when I'm out there. But that is a little soft on your sag setting IMO
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Old 10-26-2012, 12:50 AM   #12
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Wow, alot to think about, you must have gone through all these chassis and suspension adjustments on your 600,
Oh yea! lol Not just mine though, I have a couple friends that race AMA that I crew chief for. That makes for a LOT of bike set up time.

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is there a chassis setting you settled on?
You're never "settled", suspension is about riding faster and harder until the bike does something you don't like, then you fix it. Then you ride faster and harder until it messes up again, then you fix that problem. Each time you should be getting a little faster.

So it's NEVER "done"

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I run my forks 6mm above the trees, 36-38mm sag,
Do you know what that length is? 6mm showing sounds HUGE! Measure the fork length. You measure it from the top of the lower triple to the center of the axle. Like I have mine at 508 right now.

Sag is a good thing to give you a starting point, personally I don't track it after that. Sag is a static measurement, you don't ride a static bike, so you need dynamic measurements.

I know some tuners base everything on sag, I guess it's a personal preference. IMO sag is somewhat of a waste. Because stiffness is going to vary from one track to another.

Example: At JGP, it's a flowing track, no heavy braking, no banking to speak of and no elevation changes. So we tend to run light springs there. My sag there is on the higher end of the spectrum. Now, go to Barber where you have HUGE g-loads and you need a TON of spring! Or Homestead where you have HEAVY braking, again requiring lots of spring. Well your sag there will me far less static than compared to JGP.

So sag is good to start, until you ride the bike...

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shock lengh 298mm, sag 32mm, and yes the stock linkage.
Sounds short... I need to measure my shock on the 600 this weekend. I know on my 1000 my sheet here says I am at 308mm.

Do you know how much preload you have on the shock?

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Is there a more linnier linkage out there?
Yea, Lee Cycles in Cali I know was making a couple more linear links, much like the YS-0 and YS-1 Yosh makes for the gixxers.

I also think I saw either Attack or Erion was making them too. But I haven't looked in a WHILE!

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I would like to just pick a good setup and concentrate on lowering my lap times, but is that just a pipe dream?
Pipe dream? No... But I think you might be approaching it a little wrong.

It's a work in progress, you have to work through whatever is going on. I could give you the settings I use and you might think they SUCK! And depending on your pace, riding style, track, they just might suck lol.

Work into your own set up. You will see improvements, but it takes time and patience!

And understand that everything you do has a pro and a con. Think them through then try it out.

Make sure you have a good set up sheet and track every change you make!

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Originally Posted by tuck and roll View Post
Thanks for having an interest in helping this old guy trying to keep up with the kids.
My pleasure man, we gotta keep up with these kids some how! HAHAH
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Old 10-26-2012, 12:59 AM   #13
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Tuck, I'll give you a good example. We were at an AMA round a couple years ago. I think we were at Barber and we were BS with a couple of the other teams. My guy (racing SBK) was giving a couple of the factory riders crap about them being so close to perfect before they ever pull the bikes out of the trailer.

So one of the guys says, yea that's what you think. Don't tell me crew chief that! We'll go out in the first session almost everytime KNOWING the bike is set up right and close to perfect. But I always feel like crap and the bike doesn't work.

I (he) ends up making them take some preload out, speed up the compression, you know... Then it feels better, I start going faster... and faster... now I'm having issues, so we slow down the compression, add some preload, I go faster... You get the idea.

Next thing you know we are right back where we started the day. It was right all along, I just couldn't ride it. I needed to work up to it again.




That was a funny conversation and so true too!
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Old 10-26-2012, 04:31 AM   #14
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Niner, you got some serious knowledge when it comes to set up. I'm one that just relies on someone else's knowledge which isn't always great. My first race weekend ever I had to race the new racers race out here in Cali and won that by 25 sec margin. Them I raced the novice 600 ss and won that by 8 seconds. My times at that specific track were 3.2 seconds off Austin dehavins times so i was super stoked and everyone was stunned but money wasn't there for me. Heck I saved for 3 months just to make that round lol. This was '10 I was only 20. So now I've been going to school to become an electrician and I feel my motivation comes from the image in my head that I want to be back out there. I had free tracktime for 2 years and after that company folded I was kinda forced to stop. But anyway I wanted to ask. Who do you crew chief for? Do you run times that are fast enough to qualify for the ama?
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:34 AM   #15
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^^^Nah man, it's just mostly about opinion!

Good luck on the electrician skills ;) I run an electrical contracting company, I know the industry well :)

Congats on your times, very cool!

As far the riders I work with, well 2 of them that I crew chief for are:
Sean Dwyer (AMA Superbike) and does the WERA nationals, CCS-FL and has done the Macau GP twice now. Once on Jeremy Toyes bike which was cool!

Here's his AMA poster that I did for the China race.




and James Lubrano (AMA Supersport) WERA and CCS-FL



Then from time to time I'll help out some other guys
Stefano Mesa (AMA Supersport)


Charlie Long (AMA Supersport)



Dane Westby (Daytona Sportbike) (me and my finace)


Stefano Mesa (Supersport) (my finace helping him out lol)


Michael Corbino (XR Series) (my finace helping him in this pic haha- I get the dirty work...)


This is Martin Cardenas but I've never been on his crew lol My finace has been his umbrella girl a couple times though (her in this pic)


Santiago Villa (this dude is a TRIP!) (Daytona Sportbike)




So it all depends on the weekend, but we are pretty much ALWAYS standing on the grid helping someone out, just depends on the weekend. lol

As far as me? My times could make the grid at Homestead, Daytona and Barber for Supersport. But I wouldn't do anything worth a damn. My self preservation prevents me from going any faster! LOL So I stick to the club level stuff and then help out people in AMA.
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Old 10-26-2012, 08:06 AM   #16
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Lol I see Robert next to Stefano. He's the guy that helped me out. I really enjoyed working with him. Yea I follow that a lot of club guys I tried to follow Toye out at the track once.....it wasn't happening hahaha man that's cool it seems like roadracing club level out there is more prominent. Living the life right there. That is super cool to work with those guys I follow a lot of club stuff so do know about dwyer. Did you crew chief at Macau?
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Old 10-26-2012, 10:36 AM   #17
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lol nice! I've never spoken to Robert, met him at Laguna in their trailer and at Barber but never actually got to speak with him. Stefano says he really knows his stuff! Good deal!!!

Do I know what about Dwyer?

No, I did go to Macau. That's a tough deal to get in on. This past year he went and rode Toye's BMW for his team. Toye had gotten another ride on a Kawi that he wanted to take. So that was all Toye's crew.

In 2010 he took Lars and his wife, that's a SUPER expensive trip! China pays for everything you do there, but you have to get there. No way I was dropping $2,500.00 to go work a race! LOL
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Old 10-26-2012, 10:36 AM   #18
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Just noticed you bike in your sig, funny I have that EXACT bike! LOL
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Old 10-26-2012, 03:03 PM   #19
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Niner, your liven the dream. I can see why so many guy's solisite you to help them out, and its probably not all about your skills with the bike. Congradulations. After winning some club races on a RZ350 in mid 80's, and almost knocking my self silly, i gave up bikes for 25 years. My son started racing 2 1/2 years ago with basically no experiance and dragged me back into it. He won his second ever novice race on his 1000rr with me nipping at his heals, and we have been tradeing places and one upping each others times ever since. My transponder didn't work on my last race of the season so bragging rights will be up in the air this winter. Our family is closer than ever, i guess some guys would say i'm liven the dream!
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Old 10-29-2012, 09:12 AM   #20
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Thank you sir!

In the end it's just simply sharing my opinions and interpretations from how I see things working. Those things work for some, not for others. Happy to say however, they do more FAR more often than those time which they don't ;)

Just got home from the track. Shared a TON of opinions this weekend ;) lol
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Old 10-29-2012, 03:26 PM   #21
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So back to the weekly grind. Sure easier to take when you have something to look forward to on the weekend. I'm going to take your advice and measure everything i can with the suspension and geometry, record it and record laptimes with every change. Up til now, lap time improvements have come from learning bike, track and the incredible lean angles you can achive with these modern tires. Now that i'm pushing the front and rear tires, i guess set up and suspension will be more important. Just one more question before i sign off for the winter. I noticed the leading edge of my rear tire groove is scaluped, do you go with theory that the rebound should be slowed down?
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Old 10-29-2012, 04:01 PM   #22
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Yea that is very true!

Part of getting faster is purely seat time. But that has to do with your comfort level. The reason seat time helps you to get faster is because you get more comfortable with that perception of speed.

What if you can make the bike more comfortable by turning a screw? That will only expedite that comfort growth.

Now, you have to get to the point where you're riding at a level where you feel something is wrong.

Maybe the rear is spinning on the exit, maybe the bike is tough to turn in, maybe the rear is pumping on exits. These are all things you want to address and fix.

Once you fix it you ride it again and keep going until something else happens. Then you address and fix that! On and on and on... The never ending cycle!

If you need a set up form, let me know.

On the tires, yea it's probably rebound. I would slow it down.
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Old 11-21-2012, 05:10 AM   #23
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This thread was a great read for me! I have ohlins ttx and 25mm carts on my 07 cbr600 and I think I am finally getting to the point where I ride consistant enough to start playing with my bike setup.

I have the forks flush with the triples, only the cap sticking through. Rear shock is still the length it arrived at. Clickers still at the out of the box settings. 36mm sag in the front, 28mm in the rear (shock preload is backed all the way off). I am running dunlop 209gpa dot med up front and 211gpa dot med in the rear. Having major front end traction issues right now. Tires have 5 days on them at advanced trackday pace, about 12-15 sec off lap record. The tires are definitely not what they were when new, and I did not notice this front end traction issue when the tires were new but I wasn't going as fast then either. Rear tire is gone on the left side but still predictable. Front tire looks good but it is all over the place. Going to mount a set of uk ntecs first of next season and start tweaking.

Any other advice you guys might have would be greatly appreciated!!!
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Old 11-21-2012, 06:47 AM   #24
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This thread was a great read for me! I have ohlins ttx and 25mm carts on my 07 cbr600 and I think I am finally getting to the point where I ride consistant enough to start playing with my bike setup.

I have the forks flush with the triples, only the cap sticking through. Rear shock is still the length it arrived at. Clickers still at the out of the box settings. 36mm sag in the front, 28mm in the rear (shock preload is backed all the way off). I am running dunlop 209gpa dot med up front and 211gpa dot med in the rear. Having major front end traction issues right now. Tires have 5 days on them at advanced trackday pace, about 12-15 sec off lap record. The tires are definitely not what they were when new, and I did not notice this front end traction issue when the tires were new but I wasn't going as fast then either. Rear tire is gone on the left side but still predictable. Front tire looks good but it is all over the place. Going to mount a set of uk ntecs first of next season and start tweaking.

Any other advice you guys might have would be greatly appreciated!!!
Sounds like you're done for the season, you should take the time to run through your bike and record your baseline settings. COMPLETE! Record EVERYTHING!

Then when the season starts you're ready and prepared!


Sounds like you're at about 510mm in the front. Which is pretty good. It's not super long, but not short either. When you say the front is "all over the place"??

Also, the 209 is not as durable as the 211, you might just be ready for some tires. 5 days at the advanced pace is a lot of time. Especially on DOT's!!

What track? Bike set up varies drastically from track to track.

Do you know what springs you have? Front and rear. And I am guessing you don't know what the shock length is, as you said it's wherever it was when you got it...

Gotta record the info and see what you got.

On tires, I wouldn't spring for the UK's, they are so pricey!!! If you're using the DOT's now, I would try the US made 211 slicks. They are a NICE upgrade from the DOT's and they are only like $25 more. Compared to like $150 more for the UK's!



Take the time and record your bike set up!!!!!
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:06 PM   #25
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Sounds like you're done for the season, you should take the time to run through your bike and record your baseline settings. COMPLETE! Record EVERYTHING!

Then when the season starts you're ready and prepared!


Sounds like you're at about 510mm in the front. Which is pretty good. It's not super long, but not short either. When you say the front is "all over the place"??

Also, the 209 is not as durable as the 211, you might just be ready for some tires. 5 days at the advanced pace is a lot of time. Especially on DOT's!!

What track? Bike set up varies drastically from track to track.

Do you know what springs you have? Front and rear. And I am guessing you don't know what the shock length is, as you said it's wherever it was when you got it...

Gotta record the info and see what you got.

On tires, I wouldn't spring for the UK's, they are so pricey!!! If you're using the DOT's now, I would try the US made 211 slicks. They are a NICE upgrade from the DOT's and they are only like $25 more. Compared to like $150 more for the UK's!



Take the time and record your bike set up!!!!!

I am done for this season. Can't wait for next year! I had planned to stay on dot's because one of my off season mods is going to be safety wiring the bike so i can . . . GO RACING!!!! And i want to stay superstock legal. So i will probabaly stay off the slicks for now. I just want good rubber so i can rule that out as being one of my setup "issues". When i say the front is "all over the place", i am saying that the last couple days the front would push/wash out, a lot. Even went down at Eagles Canyon Raceway.



I dont have my spring rates memorized but i can look them up. I do not know my shock length Have learned a lot since i bolted it up 6 months ago. Didn't know to measure it then and have not had it off since. Definitely going to measure while i have the bike apart this winter. I will be sure to start a setup sheet and RECORD EVERYTHING!

The tracks we ride and race on here in texas are really bumpy and that is about the only thing they have in common. lol

Texas World Speedway is very very high speed and bumpy with a mixture of surfaces and traction. Not much hard braking, a lot of scrubbing off speed at lean angle.


Eagles Canyon Raceway (ECR) has some elevation and a lot of long straights into tight corners, lots of hard braking, which i love! Oh ya, and a lot of bumps, haha. Here is a clip from the session leading up to my one and only sportbike crash to date that i posted earlier in the post.


Motorsports Ranch Cresson is shorter, flowing track with, ya you guessed it, some nice big bumps. Surface is very consistant, like riding on linoleum in the mornings but gets pretty grippy in the afternoon on a hot day.


And Motorsports Ranch Houston is flat as a pancake except for the bumps, haha. Really fun layout! Notice the front end try to tuck at the begining of the video.



And here is a clip of me ECR riding from another angle plus a couple pics, any coaching you got i would love to hear!!!!






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Last edited by Impalenthelen; 11-21-2012 at 08:55 PM.
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Old 11-23-2012, 03:27 PM   #26
tuck and roll
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Hey Imp, Niner definatly has some good advice here for you, that crash is one of the strangest i've ever seen. Looks like you came hot into the corner, picked the bike up slightly mid way, then went oh **** i got'a turn more and tucked the front. You must have when you're body hit the pavement, lifted the bike up because if caught traction and rolled off way. I bet when you got back to the pits people hardly believed you crashed. I know the video is bouncey but you could probably benefit from smoothing out your corners. (I know easier said than done) Just trying to be light and sutlle on the controls and body positioning Good luck with the racing next year.
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:14 PM   #27
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Thanks for the advise tuck and roll!

That was a crazy crash, I was thinking that if i could get close enough to that ktm in that corner i could out brake him going into the next corner at the end of the front straight. So ya, i definitely came in hot. . . too hot! It happened right there in the last corner before the front straight, pretty much right in front of the pit wall, so a lot of people saw at and ya, they couldnt believe it! haha. I am definitely trying to get smoother with ALL my inputs. That will bring down my lap times a lot.

I am just getting started in this asphalt stuff after years of mx racing so i am definitely still on a steep learning curve. 9 trackdays into this addiction so far and loving it! Trying to soak up all the info i can!

Have been on 600rr.net a while now but have not really found (search function sucks) anyone very knowledgeable that would talk to me. I need more knowledge on how to set this bike up bad. Thank ya'll!!!!

And sorry for the thread jack, will post my shock length soon!
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Old 11-25-2012, 05:44 PM   #28
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Don't be sorry Imp, I'm glad you got something out of it, and its great to hear your excited about getting into racing. Track days are fun and all, but nothing beats the thrill and excitement of a good race battle. I'm probably like you, in that i would rather just ride hard and race, but to get to the next level we need to improve the way the bike works. I do believe though that these bikes are well engineered chassis wise and we probably shouldn't stray to far from factory settings. Niner will probably correct me if i'm wrong, but i believe we should setup our suspension first, spring rate, dampening, sag (there's usually good suspension guy's at track days to help with that) then play with fork and shock length to refine the steering characteristic's. I know preload (sag) does just about the same, (refine steering) but i just think separating the two will make things easier for us bike setup novices. You see that guy that flew around the outside of the pack of the three of you, you could do that too!! , It will just take more track time, smoothing out your inputs, carrying more corner speed while useing more of the track with good flowing lines. Easy right? The fun part is working on getting there.
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Old 11-25-2012, 06:42 PM   #29
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Looks like you were having a blast chasing Jorge in one of the video's, reminds me of chasing my son around, i'd out brake him into and around some corners only to have him blast by me down the long straights. I soon learned my old MX cut and thrust riding style just doesn't work well to go fast on a 600. The really fast guys have such high corner speed, smooth flowing lines, so i guess thats what we should strive for!
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Old 11-25-2012, 08:37 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuck and roll View Post
Don't be sorry Imp, I'm glad you got something out of it, and its great to hear your excited about getting into racing. Track days are fun and all, but nothing beats the thrill and excitement of a good race battle. I'm probably like you, in that i would rather just ride hard and race, but to get to the next level we need to improve the way the bike works. I do believe though that these bikes are well engineered chassis wise and we probably shouldn't stray to far from factory settings. Niner will probably correct me if i'm wrong, but i believe we should setup our suspension first, spring rate, dampening, sag (there's usually good suspension guy's at track days to help with that) then play with fork and shock length to refine the steering characteristic's. I know preload (sag) does just about the same, (refine steering) but i just think separating the two will make things easier for us bike setup novices. You see that guy that flew around the outside of the pack of the three of you, you could do that too!! , It will just take more track time, smoothing out your inputs, carrying more corner speed while useing more of the track with good flowing lines. Easy right? The fun part is working on getting there.
I totally agree with your post. That bike setup issue is like eating an elephant for me. I'm just going to have to break it down and take it one bite at a time. Up until now I would say it was me causing the bike to push or tuck or upset but I feel that I am finally getting to the point now where I would be able to make a change, go out and be able to tell if the bike is better or worse without me, the rider, being the reason for the change. . . If that makes sense, lol.

That guy that came railing around us in that msrh video is a really good rider. He has been doing trackdays for years. 2 weeks after this vid was taken he owned the novice classes in his first ever race weekend. He runs mid pack expert class race lap times. Sure am glad he rides a 1000, lol! I know racing is nothing like trackdays but if I can pull off the same laps in a race as I do on practice days I will be a 5th to 10th place guy in a field that is usually 30+ riders. Should be some really good battles going on out there! I can't wait!

I'm loving the journey! Can't wait to get back on the track in 2013!
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