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Old 11-25-2012, 08:52 PM   #31
Impalenthelen
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Originally Posted by tuck and roll View Post
Looks like you were having a blast chasing Jorge in one of the video's, reminds me of chasing my son around, i'd out brake him into and around some corners only to have him blast by me down the long straights. I soon learned my old MX cut and thrust riding style just doesn't work well to go fast on a 600. The really fast guys have such high corner speed, smooth flowing lines, so i guess thats what we should strive for!
Ya, my buddy Jorge is a really cool guy, he has been out there longer than I have and he has taught me a lot. Riding with him has definitely taught me that a fast entrance a lot of times makes for a slow exit, haha! Here is the view of the same laps from my camera.


He is still on stock suspension and making that bike go like that. I have got to get better through mid corner and coming back on the gas and start making up that easy time down the straights.

You got any footage of you and your boy duking it out??? I would like to see it!
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:45 AM   #32
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I'll try to watch those videos tonight.

Hope everyone had a good holiday!

If you need a set up form, you're welcome to use mine.

http://gottrack.net/downloads/bike_set_up_sheet.pdf

Download and print.

Few things to remember when using this or forms like mine.

Fork Height is measured from the top of the lower triple to the center of the axle
Preload is measured starting OUT and turned IN I have marked it (S-O) to remind you Start Out.
Comp & Rebound are measured starting IN and turned OUT I have marked it (S-I) to remind you Start In.

On the rear
Shock length is measured center of top bolt to center of bottom bolt off the bike
Preload is measured as the difference in the height of the spring measured OFF the shock compared to the height of the spring mounted on the shock. Example: The spring sitting on the table alone may measure 157mm then when you mount it you measure and you have it at 145mm. You then have 12mm of preload.
Comp and Rebound are same as above.
Swing LT is measured from the center of the pivot bolt to the center of the rear axle.

How you use this for those who don't know is create a base line. Then you only track the changes that you make.

Here is a quick example to show you what it should look like.

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Old 11-27-2012, 09:57 PM   #33
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That's is a great setup sheet! Thanks niner!!!!
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:32 PM   #34
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You got any footage of you and your boy duking it out??? I would like to see it![/QUOTE]

I'd love to, but i'm terrible at adding stuff to these forums, i did manage to get that setup form printed, Thanks Niner, that was an accomplishment for me. Maybe i'll start another forum to ask about how to add things like p ictures and vid's.

Just added and cropped this picture of me 23 and my son 21, never would have thought that would be called an avatar.

Last edited by tuck and roll; 11-27-2012 at 11:56 PM. Reason: add info
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Old 11-28-2012, 08:27 AM   #35
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Hope the form helps you guys out. Feel free to ask any questions you might have. If I can help, I will be happy to!

Oh and on the "Pressures" you see a " w | h"

The "w" is pressure off the warmer and the "h" is pressure hot of the track.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:39 AM   #36
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Oh I should add that every time you change a tire (front or rear) you fill in the "Tire/Compound" portion. This way you know what changes and lap times occurred on new or older tires.

Last race of the year for me is this weekend, CANNOT WAIT!!! Even though I am FAR from ready.... LOL
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Old 11-30-2012, 03:58 PM   #37
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I'm envious, we shut it down in sept. By oct. things can get pretty nasty here, cold, wet, wet leaves on the track don't give much traction. lol

Have a good last race eh.

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Old 12-03-2012, 12:11 PM   #38
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I'm envious, we shut it down in sept. By oct. things can get pretty nasty here, cold, wet, wet leaves on the track don't give much traction. lol

Have a good last race eh.
lol

Yup, we just finished up yesterday! It was clear and in the 80's :)

We are off until Feb. then we start up again ;)
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:35 AM   #39
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lol

Yup, we just finished up yesterday! It was clear and in the 80's :)

We are off until Feb. then we start up again ;)

Yea thanks, rub it in a little more, i won't even say what we'll still be doing in feb.
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:48 AM   #40
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lol

But when we are riding down here in September SOAKED in sweat, you're in some nice comfy weather. Everywhere has it's pros and cons.

Although, I will take the riding in hot weather over not being able to ride at all...

We are testing later this month and next ;)
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Old 05-07-2013, 08:40 PM   #41
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Been a little longer coming than i thought, been working a ton. Planning my first trackday of the year in a couple weeks.

My shock was at 295mm eye to eye. Pretty much stock from what I gather. I went to 299mm and logged in the book. Mounting a new set of 211's before i ride. rear is a 190/60 so that should add a little height also. Can't wait to see how much difference it makes
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:29 AM   #42
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Been a little longer coming than i thought, been working a ton. Planning my first trackday of the year in a couple weeks.

My shock was at 295mm eye to eye. Pretty much stock from what I gather. I went to 299mm and logged in the book. Mounting a new set of 211's before i ride. rear is a 190/60 so that should add a little height also. Can't wait to see how much difference it makes
Good to hear from you again, 4mm longer shock thats alot, about 20mm at the rear axle! I lengthed my ohlins from 297 to 298mm and i was getting wicked head shake down the straights. Just be careful, when it turns in so easy it can also tuck the front tire more easily.
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Old 05-08-2013, 01:56 AM   #43
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Good to hear from you again, 4mm longer shock thats alot, about 20mm at the rear axle! I lengthed my ohlins from 297 to 298mm and i was getting wicked head shake down the straights. Just be careful, when it turns in so easy it can also tuck the front tire more easily.
Oh i did not realize that, i read that 1mm longer shock = 2mm higher ride height. I did this in combination with sliding the forks down in the clamps 5mm, only the cap showing now. I gathered from several threads on here and other sites that these settings would be a good, not too extreme setting to start at. I will try to fine tune from there.
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Old 05-08-2013, 09:22 PM   #44
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Oh i did not realize that, i read that 1mm longer shock = 2mm higher ride height. I did this in combination with sliding the forks down in the clamps 5mm, only the cap showing now. I gathered from several threads on here and other sites that these settings would be a good, not too extreme setting to start at. I will try to fine tune from there.
Sorry i may have been a little off on my axle to shock ratio, probably closer to 3 to 1. Keep us informed on how your adjustments work out.

I'm really happy with all my adjusting and experimenting, as i keep coming back to settings that just work for me. And that spring rate change from 1.05 to 1.0k has worked out well for me.
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Old 05-09-2013, 04:34 AM   #45
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Sorry i may have been a little off on my axle to shock ratio, probably closer to 3 to 1. Keep us informed on how your adjustments work out.

I'm really happy with all my adjusting and experimenting, as i keep coming back to settings that just work for me. And that spring rate change from 1.05 to 1.0k has worked out well for me.

Good to know! Whatever works for you is the right setting! Have you identified any other handling issues to sort out yet? I can't wait to ride and see how the bike works, I will report back after my ride on the 19th.

How has the season been going for you all? I assume you have started your race season by now??
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Old 05-09-2013, 04:08 PM   #46
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Good to know! Whatever works for you is the right setting! Have you identified any other handling issues to sort out yet? I can't wait to ride and see how the bike works, I will report back after my ride on the 19th.

How has the season been going for you all? I assume you have started your race season by now??
Thanks for asking, unfortuneatly my son couldn't race the first weekend, and it rained all day sat. Rode easy to a 7th and 5th in superbike and 600. Sun. was nice, got 6th out of 25 in superbike after a bad start and a good dice with a 19 year old who won our 250 class last year, and now has a 600 kaw. He came second 600 in the rain, so i was determined to beat him in the dry. I got 3 and 1/2 decades on him. Bike was working real good and i know i could push it more, i holeshot the 600 race ( check out my motor build story in engine tech forum, any one play with cam timing, thread ) but pushed a little too hard before tires got up to temp. and washed the front in turn 5. I use med. compound GPA211's which work great at the track in wash. state but our track is slower and less abrasive so i'm going to go with pirelli sc1 compound which the top guys at our track use, apparently they warm up and stick real quick.

If you want motivation for your first race read the WMRRA novice 1st race 2013 thread, and just watch, you'll be suprised how much lower your lap times go when the flag drops or the lights go out. Any way good luck in that first one.

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Old 05-10-2013, 12:31 AM   #47
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Bummer you went down! Good that you were happy with the bike though. I know from racing MX that a good close battle is always fun no matter what position it is for. Crazy that you are still running up front with the kids out there, that is no small feat! Hopefully the season goes better for you from here on out. Keep us posted!

I am going to go look up those other threads, thanks for the heads up.
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Old 05-16-2013, 09:05 AM   #48
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You raised the rear 4mm and lowered the front 5mm?

Holy crap dude! lol

What were you trying to solve with these adjustments - sorry if I missed that but I didn't see this.

Here is why.
Raising the rear increases swingarm arm which helps with drive grip, but it decreases leverage on the rear (with a OEM link which is progressive) this hurts edge grip. This adds leverage to the front, which will help the bike turn in, but will hurt stability under heavy braking. Will also help with fast transitions but also will make the bike back in more under braking.

Lowering the front will make the bike also turn in faster (5mm will make it want to FALL in the corner) and will make transitions faster, BUT you decreased trail (by quite a bit) which will really hurt edge grip and make the bike want to tuck the front, especially when combined with the raising of the rear.

And you have a taller tire, which exaggerates this even further.

I would REALLY suggest you bring the front back up. At least to try it at first.

Did you measure you're front ride height? Measure from the bottom of the lower triple to the end of the fork tube. For example I run my wifes 600RR at 210mm. I liked it closer to 212-214 depending on the track.

But I also liked a 1.0 spring where she runs a .90 and weighs like 100lb less than me and doesn't brake nearly as hard as I do. LOL

Just my thoughts :)
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Old 05-17-2013, 03:39 PM   #49
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Hey Niner, i believe he said he dropped the forks in the clamps 5mm so as to actully raise the front end, is that right Imp.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:31 PM   #50
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That's right tuck, all I have showing over the top triple is the fork caps. Slid the forks down from stock hight which should be 5mm higher in the front.

Niner, I will get that fork length measurement tomorrow. Kind of hard to get it by myself. Also went from 36mm front rider sag to 32mm to try to increase trail a little more.

I know, probably not a good idea to make all these changes at once but I don't ever get any seat time, this will be my first trackday in the last 7 months. Been doing a lot of reading and studying on bike setup, trying to learn as much as I can so I can make the best use of the track time I do get. If it sucks I will go back the other way, I have all my old settings wrote down just like niner taught me!!! Haha!


I just got done loading up, headed towards ft worth at 3am! Getting a fresh set of kr448/449's when I get there! Can't wait! Should be a good day. I took all the tools I need to adjust the shock length if my changes don't feel good. Will post a ride report here!
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Old 05-19-2013, 02:26 AM   #51
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I've got a question for Niner, what would you notice in ride characteristic's from raising both ends an equal amount, say 5mm, compared with both ends being 5mm lower. Or is it just changing the differance between the two that makes any significant handling characteristic changes.
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Old 05-19-2013, 03:58 AM   #52
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Let me put my knowledge to the test then niner can correct me, lol

Raise both ends equally you will increase trail in the front for better front grip and a slightly longer wheelbase. In the rear you will have more swingarm angle for better drive/less wheelie but it will require more lean angle to execute the same turn.

That's my guess
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Old 05-19-2013, 07:10 PM   #53
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Whew! What a day! First off my tire guy stands me up. Didn't tell his guy that I had spoke for a set and to hold them for me till Sunday morning. What great customer service right. Lucky for me the guy that was there selling tires for the vendor had his own personal set of take off 211gp's he planned to use. He let me take them from him for $250. Saved my day!!!!

And man, I duno if it was the tires or all my new settings but my bike was AWESOME!!!! Now it was a perfect condition for the track, clean from being rode on all day yesterday, warm and sunny, 90 degrees, etc, etc. . . But wow!!! I have never felt grip like that in my life!!! The front never moved all day! I was able to get amazing drive! The bike was not twitchy or unstable at all. (I am running a gpr stabilizer) I beat my previous personal best by 2 and a half seconds in the last session of the day! I did not adjust anything all day because I just kept getting better.

I do wish I knew how much of the improvement was the tires and how much was the other settings but man am I a happy guy right now!!! My buddy Jorge help tow me in that last session and I have it on gopro, will post here soon!
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Old 05-19-2013, 11:20 PM   #54
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Let me put my knowledge to the test then niner can correct me, lol

Raise both ends equally you will increase trail in the front for better front grip and a slightly longer wheelbase. In the rear you will have more swingarm angle for better drive/less wheelie but it will require more lean angle to execute the same turn.

That's my guess
sounds good but i don't understand how raising both ends equally would increase trail?
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Old 05-19-2013, 11:39 PM   #55
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Whew! What a day! First off my tire guy stands me up. Didn't tell his guy that I had spoke for a set and to hold them for me till Sunday morning. What great customer service right. Lucky for me the guy that was there selling tires for the vendor had his own personal set of take off 211gp's he planned to use. He let me take them from him for $250. Saved my day!!!!

And man, I duno if it was the tires or all my new settings but my bike was AWESOME!!!! Now it was a perfect condition for the track, clean from being rode on all day yesterday, warm and sunny, 90 degrees, etc, etc. . . But wow!!! I have never felt grip like that in my life!!! The front never moved all day! I was able to get amazing drive! The bike was not twitchy or unstable at all. (I am running a gpr stabilizer) I beat my previous personal best by 2 and a half seconds in the last session of the day! I did not adjust anything all day because I just kept getting better.

I do wish I knew how much of the improvement was the tires and how much was the other settings but man am I a happy guy right now!!! My buddy Jorge help tow me in that last session and I have it on gopro, will post here soon!
Those tires are awesome , but i guess all your reading and research got you to a good setting , as Niner says just keep riding harder untill the bike does something you don't like, then try to adjust it out. Sounds like your having a great time pushing down those lap times. Just watch how much more they come down when you get into a race enviroment.
When are you going to race?
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Old 05-20-2013, 05:29 PM   #56
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sounds good but i don't understand how raising both ends equally would increase trail?
Because the forks are raked out at an angle, the more you drop them in the clamps, i.e. the longer/higher you make the front end the farther out your contact patch moves. the measurement between contact patch and the center of the axle is trail. . . I think i am close anyway! lol
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Old 05-20-2013, 05:40 PM   #57
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Those tires are awesome , but i guess all your reading and research got you to a good setting , as Niner says just keep riding harder untill the bike does something you don't like, then try to adjust it out. Sounds like your having a great time pushing down those lap times. Just watch how much more they come down when you get into a race enviroment.
When are you going to race?
Man, i am working a ton right now. 100 hrs of overtime a month, i have a 2 year old boy and a little girl due in 3 weeks. My plate is pretty full. It will probably be a while before i get to go racing. I thought i would be able to race a couple rounds early this year but work got in the way. Untill then i am just going to keep making trackdays as often as i can!

Honestly the bike never did anything that i didn't like yesterday. I just kept pushing it a little harder and harder all day looking for the edge and i never found it. It was incredible! Now i know how those experts go so fast! These bikes are amazing when the are set up well.

I know one way i can drop more time, i need to back in shape! Yesterday was exhausting and i gave all i had that last session but if i was in better shape i could have pushed harder.

Will be interesting to see how these settings work, or don't work at the other tracks. Man i love this stuff!!!!
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Old 05-21-2013, 12:03 AM   #58
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Wow, it's amazing you fine time to ride at all. But the women have to realise we need our outlet. Good luck finding time to work out. I have the same problem (out of shape) but it's from my body aching so much from all my old MX injuries. I got some advice for you, DON'T GET OLD.

But i'm still determined to stay in front of my son on his 1000rr, we have a race coming up this weekend at the Ridge in Wash. state.
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Old 05-21-2013, 01:37 PM   #59
Niner1000RR
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Originally Posted by tuck and roll View Post
Hey Niner, i believe he said he dropped the forks in the clamps 5mm so as to actully raise the front end, is that right Imp.
Gotcha, I took that as being the other way! LOL


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Originally Posted by Impalenthelen View Post
That's right tuck, all I have showing over the top triple is the fork caps. Slid the forks down from stock hight which should be 5mm higher in the front.
Gotcha, Why do both of these things?

I ask because every change should be to achieve a goal, curious what exactly are you trying to solve and what do you expect?

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Originally Posted by Impalenthelen View Post
Niner, I will get that fork length measurement tomorrow. Kind of hard to get it by myself. Also went from 36mm front rider sag to 32mm to try to increase trail a little more.
Hard to do? No, maybe you didn't get what I meant.

Kneel down on one side of the bike beside the front tire. Take a metric tape and slide it up until it's resting on the BOTTOM of the LOWER triple clamp and measure it to the bottom of that fork tube. Not the leg (the chrome part) just outer tube itself. It should be in the low 200's to high 190's. My 600RR is sitting at 208mm right now.

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Originally Posted by Impalenthelen View Post
I know, probably not a good idea to make all these changes at once but I don't ever get any seat time, this will be my first trackday in the last 7 months. Been doing a lot of reading and studying on bike setup, trying to learn as much as I can so I can make the best use of the track time I do get. If it sucks I will go back the other way, I have all my old settings wrote down just like niner taught me!!! Haha!
LMAO!

But, lets say it did suck, how would you know which it was that made it suck? That's the down side of doing major changes combined with other major changes...
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Old 05-21-2013, 01:45 PM   #60
Niner1000RR
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I've got a question for Niner, what would you notice in ride characteristic's from raising both ends an equal amount, say 5mm, compared with both ends being 5mm lower. Or is it just changing the differance between the two that makes any significant handling characteristic changes.
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Originally Posted by Impalenthelen View Post
Let me put my knowledge to the test then niner can correct me, lol

Raise both ends equally you will increase trail in the front for better front grip and a slightly longer wheelbase. In the rear you will have more swingarm angle for better drive/less wheelie but it will require more lean angle to execute the same turn.

That's my guess
Very good, but you will get a few more things.


1.) like you mentioned you are increasing trail which increases edge grip at max lean.
2.) you also will increase the effort required to make the bike initiate your turn in.
3.) you will slow the rotation of the bike at the apex of corners.
4.) Raising bike will increase the pitch you get during weight transfer and moving the center of gravity will slow transitions.
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