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Old 12-17-2012, 05:03 PM   #241
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Just let it keep happening and hopefully there will be another man with a gun nearby.
So much for a logical discussion huh? It's either all or nothing with you guys...
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Old 12-17-2012, 05:13 PM   #242
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You have made your point but there is no advice from your side. Just arm everybody right?
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Old 12-17-2012, 05:16 PM   #243
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Everybody has the ability to just snap. Not just the non social weirdo emos. You can't just say keep tabs on the mental people. Everybody has had the daydream of just going crazy on your way out of this world. Everybody
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Old 12-17-2012, 05:22 PM   #244
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We should have more control on automatic riffles. No body needs an ak47 for killing wild life. As for protection a good ol shot gun.

Armor penetrating rounds and lethal ammunition should banned

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Old 12-17-2012, 05:23 PM   #245
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Actually I have MANY suggestions, but yes it does involve arming people.

But you on the other hand just say DISARM everyone.

So you call me extreme, while your suggestion is the opposing extreme.

Yea, that seems logical. lol
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Old 12-17-2012, 05:24 PM   #246
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We should have more control on automatic riffles. No body needs an ak47 for killing wild life. As for protection a good ol shot gun.

Armor penetrating rounds and lethal ammunition should banned

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Here is PART of the problem, education!

Automatic rifles? AK?

What was the last murder in the United States that involved an "AUTOMATIC" rifle???
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Old 12-17-2012, 05:29 PM   #247
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I'll answer my own question.

Since 1934 it appears there have been 2 murders involving automatic weapons.

1 was September 15th, 1988 by a police officer who killed an informant using a Mac-10

The other was a civilian in September 14, 1992.

Both occurred in Ohio.

So is the CONTROL over "AUTOMATIC" weapons the issue here?
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Old 12-17-2012, 05:42 PM   #248
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We should have more control on automatic riffles. No body needs an ak47 for killing wild life. As for protection a good ol shot gun.

Armor penetrating rounds and lethal ammunition should banned

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Lol!! So much fail here

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Old 12-17-2012, 05:45 PM   #249
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Lol!! So much fail here

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lol right? You see my response! HAHAHA
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Old 12-17-2012, 06:00 PM   #250
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Interesting article here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...united-states/
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Old 12-17-2012, 06:21 PM   #251
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I was going to mention how easy ANFO is to make, but not going to describe anymore than already mentioned. It is VERY VERY easy to obtain materials to make high explosives and little to no skill is involved. You don't go out and buy gunpowder or commercially available low explosive in small quantities, you make your own high explosives with readily available ingredients and nobody will trace back purchases to you. I already can tell there are very many posters here that just don't understand that guns can be replaced with many other more powerful and devastating weapons. It's NOT debatable, It's a fact. I don't like to imagine this type of scenario at all, but a person could have walked into a school locked himself into a classroom and have killed more than 20 children with a simple hand held pipe bomb with nials duct taped around the bomb like many terrorists do. A pipe bomb is 100% easier to make, buy and obtain than a gun. It would be much quicker and would likely cause more damage.
We can solve these particular problems over time. If people were blowing up people with this here, do you think that would go on indefinitely?
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Old 12-17-2012, 06:46 PM   #252
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Okay my turn lol.
To start I believe there is very valid arguments on both sides of the gun control issue it is not a clear yes or no for me. On the other hand there is quite frankly a lot of arguments on the issue that is pure non sense from both sides. I respect everyones views on it especially foreign opinions that is not filtered through the media which I hold no value in to begin with.

I still want to make one thing clear though this gun control topic has nothing to do with the trouble we are facing and quite frankly to me its kind of sickening that the media and others who have intrest in pushing Gun control are diverting attention away from the real issues and overshadowing the memory of the innocents while pushing their agenda forward. Also Nico and others please do not misunderstand that this country as a whole is not a bunch of gun toteing good ole' boys that want to pop off rounds the first chance we get while screaming 'Mericas #1. I understand this foreign image of america that is portrayed by movies and mass media, but honestly you would be peasently surprised that the majority of us are logical and do not support many of the things you discussed. Especially foreign policies.

On to the topic at hand. On the one side I find it disturbing that people that support full on Bans will claim that this is the answer and in the same breath admit that things will get worse before it gets better. Worse, really. Is that really the answer, so the amount of lives lost while things "get worse" is that acceptable collateral damage? Another issue I have with the full on ban is something that has been discussed already and that is believeing that a ban will make guns obsolete is completely foolish. Would we imprison gunsmiths too? The biggest argument that frustrated me though would have to be the comments about "a ban would not stop killers but it would make it more difficult". Not to sound I like a **** but honestly does it really matter how difficult we made it on them when the outcome is the same?
Now dont get me wrong I absolutely believe that there needs to be a meeting of the minds on both sides of the issue and we NEED stricter training requirements to purchase, and I mean extensive real time under pressure training.

Now onto the anti-gun control side of the argument. There is an equal amount of valid points and bs here too. While I do not agree with a ban I do as stated before belive that it needs more extensive stricter training. I have done my fair share as an armed security guard (once a year,2 years required in VA). I also own several firearms at my home that I keep in a gun safe in a secured locked room. Which leads me to my biggest problem with the anti-gun control side. The defense is made that they want to use it for protecting their families, but being the logical realist that I am I know in many situations as Nico stated their is simply not enough time to ready my weapon from its secure location without putting my family in a situation where they will be unatended and in more danger than necessary. For these people that use this argument I highly suggest preparing different scenerios with your family and possible escape routes the same as you would a fire drill. Although depending on the situation if I know that I have the oppurtinity to reach my weapon without putting my families safety in jeopardy than I will absolutely will go for it, but as I said I am a realist and the odds of that are very slim. My point being that if your weapons are not secured around your children as I have above you are putting them in even more risk than you know which leads to easily accessable firearms by teens (not saying they cant get them elsewhere either ban or no ban). If it is simply a matter of losing possesions as Nico said it best let them have it. Family is priority #1. Although 8/10 that is not the case and the same measures of action should be taken to ensure your families safety.

Honestly I cold go on forever but Im getting hungry lol /rant
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Old 12-17-2012, 06:57 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by NaturalPhenomenon View Post
We should have more control on automatic riffles. No body needs an ak47 for killing wild life. As for protection a good ol shot gun.

Armor penetrating rounds and lethal ammunition should banned
I hate making examples of people, but anyone reading this thread needs to see this post as an example of a typical uneducated fool, who lacks common sense and has no clue on basic weapon legality.

Educate yourself before sticking your foot in your mouth. If you don't, you'll provide nothing but hours of entertainment for the rest of us .
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Old 12-17-2012, 06:57 PM   #254
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I don't believe having a gun 24/7 is a necessity of life but in this reality we live in, it gives us the most options for those SHTF moments.

IIRC, there some old dude who lived and Florida who stopped two armed thugs trying to rob an internet cafe. Why wasn't this story broadcasted all over the news like the CT shooting? Because of the anti-gun agendas of the media. If the media gave the same attention to these types of stories instead of sensationalizing school shootings, the masses would understand that guns aren't always used for violence.

Edit: Damn it, I must be super slow in typing my replies because everyone else is already doing it for me haha.
The difference between the massacres and jus dead bad guy stories are armed citizens. People are completely overlooking that fact.
Also let's look at the previous gun ban and all previous bans that have been enacted and have had no positive effect. Let's also look at gun bans that have been lifted and have dropped crime rates in cities affected.

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Old 12-17-2012, 07:36 PM   #255
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This is only going to be for those that are in the U.S but can someone tell me why these only happen at Gun free zones? Seems like a legitimate question, out of all the places in our country to do things like this why choose a gun free zone?

Comumbine
Virginia Teach
Auror Theater - Private owned theater with a no gun flier displayed
Sandy Hook

And for those that think I am just another gun owner looking out for himself you can think again. I have 2 daughters that attend school and I had to think long and hard about even letting them go to school today because of this weekends events. It hit home for a lot of families, I have spoken to our principle and have seen the changes that are taking place to help make our school more secure. I have conveyed to the principle where I stand with guns and that it only takes one person with a gun to help many that are without. Putting a sign up to display there are not guns here isn't going to help anything. Criminals don't care what the sign says and are going to do what they want. Maybe law abiding citizens should side step those signs and when/if something happens they change the outcome.

You don't hear this at all but the guy that was in a church and started shooting and the CCW holder that shot that suspect dead before anyone got hurt. That is something that should have been all over the news but it wasn't. I don't believe the church pressed charges for him having his weapon in a posted no gun zone but that church should have said the outcome would have been different if he was following the law and we thank him for this and we are going to change our policy to show our gratitude.

I know it's just another persons look at this and it's probably not going to change anyone's mind but I hope you read it and understand that I have a CCW, I always carry and I will put my life on the line to protect myself/family and innocent people from harm. This is a "RIGHT" given to us and I will use it just like everyone else enjoys their rights.
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Old 12-17-2012, 08:40 PM   #256
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This is only going to be for those that are in the U.S but can someone tell me why these only happen at Gun free zones? Seems like a legitimate question, out of all the places in our country to do things like this why choose a gun free zone?

Comumbine
Virginia Teach
Auror Theater - Private owned theater with a no gun flier displayed
Sandy Hook

And for those that think I am just another gun owner looking out for himself you can think again. I have 2 daughters that attend school and I had to think long and hard about even letting them go to school today because of this weekends events. It hit home for a lot of families, I have spoken to our principle and have seen the changes that are taking place to help make our school more secure. I have conveyed to the principle where I stand with guns and that it only takes one person with a gun to help many that are without. Putting a sign up to display there are not guns here isn't going to help anything. Criminals don't care what the sign says and are going to do what they want. Maybe law abiding citizens should side step those signs and when/if something happens they change the outcome.

You don't hear this at all but the guy that was in a church and started shooting and the CCW holder that shot that suspect dead before anyone got hurt. That is something that should have been all over the news but it wasn't. I don't believe the church pressed charges for him having his weapon in a posted no gun zone but that church should have said the outcome would have been different if he was following the law and we thank him for this and we are going to change our policy to show our gratitude.

I know it's just another persons look at this and it's probably not going to change anyone's mind but I hope you read it and understand that I have a CCW, I always carry and I will put my life on the line to protect myself/family and innocent people from harm. This is a "RIGHT" given to us and I will use it just like everyone else enjoys their rights.
This is a very good point. I'm only 18 and can't fully understand the protect my kids aspect you saying but I can see how you feel. When I turn 21 the first thing I'm doing is getting my CCW. Nothing matters more to me than my life and other I care about. My dad actually is making me get one. Lol. But you never know what can happen that one time your out and some crazy guy just snaps and pulls his gun. Hopefully il never be in that position but I will surely do what I can to help whoever I can even though I don't know the people there. It's not easy to get a CCW you have to go through several weeks and pass inspection so the people with them are most likely not crazy unless they snap afterwards. But most people with them are responsible gun owners just looking out for themselves, they family, and to help out whoever they can. No one knows when another incident will arise and your there. Having a gun is a right we Americans have and we should put to use. Gun restriction is a pointless idea and won't do anything to help reduce incidents like this. Like stated a lot of these crimes happen in gun free zones. Criminals don't give a sh*t about a sign theil do what they came there to do. Even with guns illegal. It will still happen.


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Old 12-17-2012, 08:52 PM   #257
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Did I mention that you have to LOVE everything that the government does? What I said, and I'll say it again, you CANNOT pick and choose which part of the Constitution that you will obey and follow. Every single one of the articles in the Bill of Rights has meaning and purpose. But just to arbitrarily say that gun are bad and you want them to go away is wishful thinking and hopefully the government understands this also, and puts their emotions back in check after this horrible shooting over the weekend.
Explain to me who here is picking and choosing what to "obey" in the Constitution. All I see are people expressing their views on guns and gun control. I don't see anybody here breaking any laws.
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:03 PM   #258
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If you think that, then you're missing the whole point of the 2A.

The concept behind the 2A is timeless and is meant to allow common citizens the right bear guns, lasers, light sabers or whatever is used at the time to have the ability to fend of an oppressive government.
Don't forget nuclear weapons!
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:04 PM   #259
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Guns are evil - All arguments about people going on murder spree's with lesser weapons because they can't get guns are invalid, guns allow them to do the damage they want in the shortest time with a safe distance between them and their victims. They wouldn't have been able to achieve what they did without guns! 2 common denominators in the shootings were mentality and guns. Can we really regulate either one of them? The truth is these incidents would not have happened without the use of guns. The reality of this world is there will always be guns. People take classes to be legally allowed to carry a concealed weapon, go through background checks just to buy them. A gun doesn't turn anyone into a hero or a villain. Cops are here to protect the masses, not individuals, it is still up to us to protect ourselves when we can. In a perfect world there would be no need to own a weapon. Some of your posts in this thread make me sick, A man can have every gun in the world and "lose it" or "flip out" and never once think about harming innocent individuals with them. Don't blame guns, blame the people who use them for harm.

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Old 12-17-2012, 09:16 PM   #260
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:28 PM   #261
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Instead of a thanks button. There should also be a dislike or stfu button.
I'm all for guns any kind and any type. Except for automatic, those should stay illegal. I think it should be a little harder to buy a gun, with more strict rules. Most people can buy a gun in about 15 minutes.
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:43 PM   #262
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:46 PM   #263
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Make up your own mind when it comes to being armed, but don't ever make the mistake of coming into my home uninvited.
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:22 PM   #264
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Make up your own mind when it comes to being armed, but don't ever make the mistake of coming into my home uninvited.
Can you invite me?

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Old 12-17-2012, 10:34 PM   #265
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Crazy people shoot people so make guns illegal for the general population. Hmm, let's think about this for a second. If crazy people didn't shoot people they would find some other way of killing people. How about a bomb? Bombs can be made with manure.

Should we outlaw sh*t?
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:45 PM   #266
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The thing that gets me though is that so many of you put your right to bear arms before the lives of so many people, particularly kids.
...
There will always be those with a legitimate reason to carry certain weapons...and armed guards etc but they can be taken care of as well.
The United states was founded by a bunch of (wealthy) domestic terrorists, who Sacrificed their lives, children, property, and countrymen for their beliefs, this nation, and the creation of the below document. Sadly they are probably rolling in their graves every day. Would you accept your kids growing up working in a nike factory 14 hours a day 7 days a week? What separates us from that fate?

Armed guards... look up Ludlow Massacre, Do you think it would not have happened with rocks and 1 illegal fire arm, or a makeshift bomb to make a boom? just bull doze all the evil communists while you burn their children alive in their tents. At least they could try and level the field.



Note the order.

Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Amendment III
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
Amendment VII
In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


Also:
I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic...



I personally think with education, funds(insanely priced tax stamps), paperwork, background check, and pshyc evaluation any US citizen should be able to purchase any weapon of war that is not a national secret.(plus lots of regulation on redistribution, and tracking for anything beyond a 'gun'). I am also a tree hugging liberal(for the most part)

This former special forces soldier (currently nut) would not be allowed to purchase any more though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qth1k962_9A



An armed society is a polite society.

EDIT not directed any anyone specific, just trying to give a little tweaked insight into why americans seem backwards to many in the rest of the world.
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:47 AM   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheX View Post
Searched and didn't find this video here,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8RDWltHxRc#!
There were many things in there that they talked about that were true, however they were only true at the time that film was produced, which would be around 1997 - 1998. Around 15 years later, not much of that holds true any more. That's what I mean by it all going to crap in the short term but getting better over time.
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Old 12-18-2012, 07:05 AM   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico View Post
There were many things in there that they talked about that were true, however they were only true at the time that film was produced, which would be around 1997 - 1998. Around 15 years later, not much of that holds true any more. That's what I mean by it all going to crap in the short term but getting better over time.
Thanks for confirming this. There is quite a lot of evidence showing gun-related crime has decreased in Australia since bans. Personally, I'd much rather face someone with a knife than a gun. The USA is a different country and I don't pretend to understand it completely, but some of you should at least consider how gun bans have worked and not worked in other countries. It's not so simple as banning weapons, but it certainly has an impact - it's needs to be considered in tandem with other laws to prevent or deter crime.

http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/A/8/...730%7Dti10.pdf

http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlin...file/cjb98.pdf

Some stats for Australia for those who don't like reading (note the difference slightly after gun bans - 1996, 2002 - compared to the higher numbers before):

Total Number of Gun Deaths

ChartIn Australia, annual deaths resulting from firearms total - population went from 14M to 20M in the same period, which means the reduction in gun-related percentage of crime is about 50% less than what's even shown if you consider it per capita.

2008: 225
2007: 404
2006: 229
2003: 287
2002: 293
2001: 326
2000: 324
1999: 347
1998: 312
1997: 428
1996: 516
1995: 470
1994: 516
1993: 513
1992: 608
1991: 618
1990: 595
1989: 549
1988: 674
1987: 694
1986: 677
1985: 682
1984: 675
1983: 644
1982: 689
1981: 618
1980: 687
1979: 685

Canada also showed a decline in deaths due to guns after the 1978 limitations - note the population grew from 24M to 30M so there's also a 25% increase in population during a decrease in the total number of deaths:

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Old 12-18-2012, 07:06 AM   #269
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And for those discussing the constitution, I wouldn't get stuck in the train of thought that it's the best thing going around and couldn't be improved upon... they amended it for a reason. Perhaps today's social norms may warrant further amendments?
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Old 12-18-2012, 07:10 AM   #270
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I still want to make one thing clear though this gun control topic has nothing to do with the trouble we are facing and quite frankly to me its kind of sickening that the media and others who have intrest in pushing Gun control are diverting attention away from the real issues and overshadowing the memory of the innocents while pushing their agenda forward. Also Nico and others please do not misunderstand that this country as a whole is not a bunch of gun toteing good ole' boys that want to pop off rounds the first chance we get while screaming 'Mericas #1. I understand this foreign image of america that is portrayed by movies and mass media, but honestly you would be peasently surprised that the majority of us are logical and do not support many of the things you discussed. Especially foreign policies.
Don't worry I have met and spoken with enough Americans both on here and in my travels to know that the media portrayal of your country is a feed of ass.

And I'm not so naive as to actually believe all of the crap the news throws out!
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