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Old 11-08-2009, 02:05 AM   #1
justsome1
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MotoGP Back To 1000cc From 2012

Dont know if this has been posted yet (didnt see anything) but here goes...

http://www.motomatters.com/news/2009...from_2012.html

The 800cc formula is dead. MotoGP is set to return to 1000cc from 2012, according to a proposal submitted to the Grand Prix Commission at Valencia today. The 800cc bikes have received a deluge of criticism, almost from the moment they were introduced, and that deluge has finally buried them.

The decision has hinged upon a change of mind by the MSMA, the manufacturers association. So far, the manufacturers have been opposed to any changes to the MotoGP formula, partly because high costs of entry created a barrier to new entrants in the class, allowing the existing participants to dominate the class. But the high costs have taken their toll even on the existing manufacturers, and with the future of Suzuki in the class in doubt under the current rules, and even doubt about just how long Honda was prepared to continue, a change was almost inevitable. 2012 is the earliest date it is possible to make the change, as the current 5 year contract that exists between Dorna, the FIM and the MSMA expires at the end of 2011. That contract states that no changes may be made to the engine capacity without a unanimous decision by all of the manufacturers in the MSMA.

The initial proposal was to allow the use of production engines in prototype chassis, but the current proposal makes no mention of production engines at all. MotoMatters.com asked Herve Poncharal about the proposal, and asked whether this was to be production engines or not.

"Nobody's talking about production engines," Poncharal told us. "The Grand Prix Commission is thinking about going back to 1000cc engines. This is more than supported by Dorna, more than supported by Dorna, but the first reaction to this by MSMA is very very positive." The MSMA's new position has been the key difference, Poncharal pointed out, and the Monster Tech 3 Yamaha boss was delighted at this change of heart. "I'm really happy, I'm very happy about that. It looks like there is a consensus, but we have to take it day-by-day."

The fear is, of course, that a change in engine capacity would not be enough to cut costs, and merely create a new class of expensive prototypes. Poncharal said that this would not be allowed to happen: "The whole idea supported by everybody including the MSMA is to get the costs drastically down." Just how to ensure that is a different matter altogether, though. Poncharal admitted it would be difficult, but said that the Grand Prix Commission would not try to solve everything at once. Asked how to ensure that costs didn't once again spiral out of control, Poncharal replied "That's the next question. One day at a time!"
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Old 11-08-2009, 03:10 AM   #2
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Wow...this is news to me. I don't see how increasing engine capacity is going to cut costs at all, unless they are in fact planning to use production engines. Maybe it can bring some new players into the game though. Interesting nonetheless, good find.
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Old 11-08-2009, 03:54 AM   #3
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the only way to cut costs is to tell them how much they can spend - all of these organizations continue down this stupid path forever apparently not realizing that if honda has a million more to spend and they can only spend it on developing titanium valve stems - guess what they is gonna do.
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Old 11-08-2009, 04:00 AM   #4
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interesting...
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Old 11-08-2009, 06:45 AM   #5
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hmm i question this a lot, as SBK has the rights for 1000cc/600 production bikes, hence why moto 2 could not be production bikes due to the rights signed by the competition in the motorbike racing community. this is why prev it was 990cc bikes racing etc.

Which for me is a shame because i wish it was factory 600cc/1000cc racing in the moto gp paddock, better goodies for us then with development :)

I would have loved for a 800 bike to come out of production from all of this, i would trade in my baby for one of those, 750 gixxer for a honda man.. Never..lol

Personnely i cant see how the costs of it differ for the diff of 200cc, as either way they are not production bikes, and thus have no issues with development.

thats my thoughts anyhow :)


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In 2003 the FIM changed the rules to allow 1000 cc machines (either twins, triples or four-cylinder) to race. Rule changes in MotoGP to allow 4-stroke engines meant that the Japanese manufacturers focused their resources there, leaving the Superbike World Championship with limited factory involvement[5] (only Ducati and Suzuki).

2007 With MotoGP machines reduced in capacity from 990 cc to an 800 cc maximum displacement, 1000 cc Superbikes, both at World Championship and top national championships (AMA Superbike and British Superbike) become the most powerful racing bikes being road raced in 2007. While superbikes remained two or more seconds per lap slower than MotoGP bikes at most tracks where both raced, they had equal or more power
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Old 11-08-2009, 11:06 AM   #6
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It costs less because they can make power easier with a liter, so the engine lasts longer.
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Old 11-08-2009, 02:44 PM   #7
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If it goes back to 1000cc then maybe SBK riders (Nicky, Colin, etc.) will actually have a chance.
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Old 11-08-2009, 08:28 PM   #8
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That going to be very interesting if they go back to liter's........the midgets are going to have a harder go at it. LOL
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Old 11-08-2009, 08:37 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdca7718 View Post
It costs less because they can make power easier with a liter, so the engine lasts longer.
Wouldn't it also cost less because if they are allowed to use production motors there is lees need for R&D on developing new motors?
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Old 11-08-2009, 08:47 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidnplay01 View Post
hmm i question this a lot, as SBK has the rights for 1000cc/600 production bikes, hence why moto 2 could not be production bikes due to the rights signed by the competition in the motorbike racing community. this is why prev it was 990cc bikes racing etc.

Which for me is a shame because i wish it was factory 600cc/1000cc racing in the moto gp paddock, better goodies for us then with development :)

I would have loved for a 800 bike to come out of production from all of this, i would trade in my baby for one of those, 750 gixxer for a honda man.. Never..lol

Personnely i cant see how the costs of it differ for the diff of 200cc, as either way they are not production bikes, and thus have no issues with development.

thats my thoughts anyhow :)


SBK noters
In 2003 the FIM changed the rules to allow 1000 cc machines (either twins, triples or four-cylinder) to race. Rule changes in MotoGP to allow 4-stroke engines meant that the Japanese manufacturers focused their resources there, leaving the Superbike World Championship with limited factory involvement[5] (only Ducati and Suzuki).

2007 With MotoGP machines reduced in capacity from 990 cc to an 800 cc maximum displacement, 1000 cc Superbikes, both at World Championship and top national championships (AMA Superbike and British Superbike) become the most powerful racing bikes being road raced in 2007. While superbikes remained two or more seconds per lap slower than MotoGP bikes at most tracks where both raced, they had equal or more power
they never said they would use production bikes.
the Honda moto 2 bikes are running production based 600RR engines
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Old 11-08-2009, 08:48 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXRider View Post
they never said they would use production bikes.
the Honda moto 2 bikes are running production based 600RR engines
FTMFW!!!!!
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Old 11-08-2009, 09:43 PM   #12
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If they go back to 990's they are gonna have to raise the fuel limit from 21 liters. Yes it's cheaper horsepower with the 990 but it will also use more fuel. In order to be able to be able to point and shoot the 990's they will need the fuel also. I think it would be great if they did it and also went with less tc. Do away with GPS aided tc and just rely on wheel speed sensors.
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Old 11-10-2009, 04:53 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdca7718 View Post
It costs less because they can make power easier with a liter, so the engine lasts longer.
And there is a cap for hp ? - no there is not extra capacity will mean extra hp and extra development this move will actually cost alot more initially than it will ever save.

The only benefit for companies is that they can use a production based engine block to offset some of the total costs but to get there is going to require a bunch of new money just like in f1 with KERs which cost every team about 20-30 mil in development for 1 season's use.

The cool part for fans is going to see the men further seperate themselves from everyone else which will also mean more spending by other teams.

This is why you restrict total expenditures completely if cost cutting is the goal.

The best engineers will still want to work for the most established teams and the other teams can hire rogue thinkers to catch up.
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Old 11-18-2009, 10:26 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orientexpress11 View Post
If it goes back to 1000cc then maybe SBK riders (Nicky, Colin, etc.) will actually have a chance.
Actually, Colin is doing better on the 800s than the 990s. And when they say 1000, they mean the 990s. Nicky will like it, but I think that Bridgestone will not. 990s were brutal on tires.
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Old 11-18-2009, 11:01 AM   #15
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I have no problems with this. IMO any racing league at the pinnacle of their sport (F1 and MotoGP) should be allowed to do anything they want. I'd like to see how fast these bikes and cars could go with no restrictions. Too bad it'll never happen like that. The second one team comes out with something unstoppable the ban it the next year. Where's the fun in that?
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Old 11-19-2009, 09:07 PM   #16
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do anything they want. ever hear of can-am. it was a run what you bring series. titanium cars. magnesium hubs, billet this. porsche came in with a car. and killed the series. you want a manufacturer to come in and kill moto gp because they can do anything they want.
Read about it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_917
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Old 11-23-2009, 02:05 PM   #17
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That going to be very interesting if they go back to liter's........the midgets are going to have a harder go at it. LOL
Evidently Pedrosa would welcome the change.

http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/154...cc_return.html
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Old 11-25-2009, 04:36 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stormy View Post
And there is a cap for hp ? - no there is not extra capacity will mean extra hp and extra development this move will actually cost alot more initially than it will ever save.

The only benefit for companies is that they can use a production based engine block to offset some of the total costs but to get there is going to require a bunch of new money just like in f1 with KERs which cost every team about 20-30 mil in development for 1 season's use.
yes, my thoughts exactly, except there is a pseudo "cap" to hp, and that is fuel capacity. Provided they don't allow dramatically increased fuel capacity with the bigger displacement engines, the teams wont be able to sacrifice putting out more power and burning through that fuel too quickly. So for the same fuel capacity, they would be limited to roughly the same power, even on a liter bike.

But I still agree that teams will push development on these engines and spend to squeeze out as much performance as they can based on the rules/specifications.

Last edited by omar; 11-25-2009 at 04:40 AM.
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Old 11-26-2009, 03:39 PM   #19
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just bring back a V-5 and I'm happy :)
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Old 11-27-2009, 03:36 AM   #20
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Why does everyone keep bringing up production anything? They obviously don't understand how MotoGP runs. They use V4's so they are not using literbike parts from our road bikes. They are purpose built race bikes and can not be production bikes.
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Old 11-27-2009, 01:56 PM   #21
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^^ Ya, they're basically one-off prototypes like F1. Nothing production about them, except maybe the levers.
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Old 12-11-2009, 12:42 PM   #22
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From MotoGP website:

Today the Grand Prix Commission members reconvened in Geneva at the FIM headquarters to discuss future developments for the MotoGP World Championship.

Following talks between MotoGP’s governing body the FIM, series rights holder Dorna Sports and the MSMA, the Commission agreed to change the maximum engine capacity of the MotoGP class to 1000cc for the 2012 season. A limit of 4 cylinders will also be introduced, with a maximum cylinder bore measurement of 81 mm.

Mr Ippolito said: “The main changes we have decided on are new rules for the MotoGP class. We will have four cylinder engines, 4-stroke of course, with a 1000cc maximum, and the bore of the cylinders will be 81mm. This base will give all the manufacturers the opportunity to start work. At the beginning of next year we will produce the new rules in a more complete format, but that is the basis; 2012 will be the year of a new era of MotoGP.”

Mr Ezpeleta stated: “It was a very important meeting to decide the future of the MotoGP class. From 2012 the bikes will have an engine capacity of up to 1000cc, have up to four cylinders and the maximum bore will be 81mm. It’s a very important measurement because with this we can have all the characteristics of the engine. This has been approved and between now and the start of the 2010 season we will have another two meetings to define the rest of the specifications for this new class.”

Timeline of engine changes in recent years:

2002 - Introduction of 990cc 4-stroke MotoGP (instead of 2-stroke 500cc).
2007 - Maximum engine capacity reduction from 990cc to 800cc.
2009-2010 – Maximum engine usage (6 engines per rider in 2010).
2012 - Maximum engine capacity increased to 1000cc, with a limit of 4 cylinders and a maximum 81mm cylinder bore.

Several minor technical rules change were also announced for 2010, alongside further regulations related to the new Moto2 class. All are available on the FIM website.
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Old 12-11-2009, 01:45 PM   #23
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The Americans need to hang on for two more years.
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