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Old 10-03-2012, 11:03 PM   #1
RedDragon
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emergency stops

Hi I was just wondering if I am the only one that doesn't use the gear to slow down in these really close call situations, what's ur opinions and techniques people. Thanks
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:54 AM   #2
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the gear?

in a maximum braking scenario, on clean pavement your front tire should be doing all the work.
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Old 10-04-2012, 01:47 AM   #3
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By "the gear" he probably means engine braking.

I would if I could rev-match each downshift properly while braking. My skill level isn't quite there yet so I just clutch and brake hard. I still downshift to 2nd usually but I can't rev-match while braking without making the bike pogo...yet...I'm practicing and I feel like I'm close.
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Old 10-04-2012, 02:36 AM   #4
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I usually don't use engine braking much anyway to slow the bike. Rev matching is different than using your engine to slow the bike down. Your front brake has enough power to lift your rear wheel off the ground. It will do the trick! But it's always good to downshift when braking.


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Old 10-04-2012, 02:38 AM   #5
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Exactly, the downshifting doesn't help to slow down much so in emergency situations I don't even try.
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Old 10-04-2012, 02:46 AM   #6
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for emergency braking never rely on engine braking. if you are anywhere close to usin the front brake to its maximum the rear wheel will lose traction and engin braking or downshifting can become a risk.
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Old 10-04-2012, 03:32 AM   #7
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Ok cool, just to be clear lol I ment gears but I am on my phone typing lol, what I have been doing Is clutch in and hard breaking, once or twice i have had the back end hopping lol but i dont reccomend it and also if the back locks up i release and re apply
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Old 10-04-2012, 03:38 AM   #8
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You might want to practice emergency braking in a parking lot or something just to get it down so when you really need it, it's an automatic reaction.


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Old 10-04-2012, 03:54 AM   #9
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Lol dont need parking lots I get enough practice on the roads, but as for the hopping I am going to try and cure it by bringing the front lever in a notch. When it hops my guess would be it lift about half inch and only last maybe a second or less at a time. One thing I will say the breaks have enormous power they would have no trouble flipping the bike
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Old 10-04-2012, 03:59 AM   #10
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Lol dont need parking lots I get enough practice on the roads, but as for the hopping I am going to try and cure it by bringing the front lever in a notch. When it hops my guess would be it lift about half inch and only last maybe a second or less at a time. One thing I will say the breaks have enormous power they would have no trouble flipping the bike
Lol I'm not at all doubting your skills sir! But I still like to be prepared. I suggested a parking lot because you could practice repeatedly without having to go with the flow of traffic.

If you already know this than disregard but a helpful tip I learned was when using your front break, brace the gas tank with your knees and try to move the weight off your wrists. It seems to keep the bike more stable when supporting yourself with your knees and keeps your weight off the front end.


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Old 10-04-2012, 04:12 AM   #11
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I know mate know worries. I do agree with the parking lot as the Americans call them lol is always a good idea for new riders. I mainly stared this post as I havnt seen much about emergency stops on here. Somtimes U will be surprised how fast ur reaction are U really will act without even thinking lol.
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Old 10-04-2012, 04:21 AM   #12
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^^^ exactly!


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Old 10-04-2012, 07:07 AM   #13
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Ok cool, just to be clear lol I ment gears but I am on my phone typing lol, what I have been doing Is clutch in and hard breaking, once or twice i have had the back end hopping lol but i dont reccomend it and also if the back locks up i release and re apply
Leave the clutch out. That will give you a little engine braking and will stabilize the bike. Once things are under control you can start downshifting through the gears.
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Old 10-04-2012, 10:27 AM   #14
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Ok cool, just to be clear lol I ment gears but I am on my phone typing lol, what I have been doing Is clutch in and hard breaking, once or twice i have had the back end hopping lol but i dont reccomend it and also if the back locks up i release and re apply
Go to a parking lot, set up a marked point, and practice stopping at that point at the same speed. Try the different techniques you're talking about and see for yourself which technique works best for you. Then practice that technique.

If you were to record your first stop and compare it to one after a little practice you will see results. Results that will save your ass.
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:23 AM   #15
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During MSF our instructor made it clear that if you are slowing you should be downshifting. Doesnt matter if you're letting out of the clutch and using it to help you slow. His thought was if you're stopping quickly, those behind you are doing the same. If one of them cant brake in time at least you're in the proper gear to drop the clutch and try and get the hell out of the way. At least you wouldn't become a car sammich!

Thankfully I havent had to test it yet, but I'm going through my gears down as I slow but with the clutch in.
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:23 PM   #16
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i use it often. especially when traffic comes to a sudden stop.
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Old 10-04-2012, 01:15 PM   #17
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During MSF our instructor made it clear that if you are slowing you should be downshifting. Doesnt matter if you're letting out of the clutch and using it to help you slow. His thought was if you're stopping quickly, those behind you are doing the same. If one of them cant brake in time at least you're in the proper gear to drop the clutch and try and get the hell out of the way. At least you wouldn't become a car sammich!

Thankfully I havent had to test it yet, but I'm going through my gears down as I slow but with the clutch in.

someone was paying attention!! we teach the same method. you always need to be ready to get out of the way. students practice swerve and emergecy stop until we go a full 30-45 min without having to give a single correction.

make that **** muscle memory.
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Old 10-04-2012, 08:39 PM   #18
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Fair point on being in the right gear keep that in mind i think
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Old 10-08-2012, 06:45 AM   #19
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Yup, pulling the clutch in doesnt do anything for you, it actually makes you brake harder because you have completely rid your bike of any engine braking. Keep the clutch engaged at least if you dont want to downshift and rev match, which will still prevent you from getting out of sudden situations because you wont be in the right gear to accelerate effectively but might reduce the demand on your brakes and front wheel locking up.
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Old 10-22-2012, 03:12 PM   #20
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Ok cool, just to be clear lol I ment gears but I am on my phone typing lol, what I have been doing Is clutch in and hard breaking, once or twice i have had the back end hopping lol but i dont reccomend it and also if the back locks up i release and re apply
As a few others have said, don't pull the clutch in. In a true emergency stop you want to go for the front lever hard with a smooth even pull until you stop or slow enough to avoid the obstacle.

Also, if you lock up the front tire you want to slightly release the brake until it stops locking. You don't want to completely release the brakes and reapply because it will add distance to your stopping time.

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Lol I'm not at all doubting your skills sir! But I still like to be prepared. I suggested a parking lot because you could practice repeatedly without having to go with the flow of traffic.

If you already know this than disregard but a helpful tip I learned was when using your front break, brace the gas tank with your knees and try to move the weight off your wrists. It seems to keep the bike more stable when supporting yourself with your knees and keeps your weight off the front end.


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Very important to squeeze the tank with your knees as it keeps the weight off your wrists and makes the bike more stable because you have that weight off the front end. This will also help the rider keep pressure off the handlebars which could result in them steering one way or the other unintentionally.

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Leave the clutch out. That will give you a little engine braking and will stabilize the bike. Once things are under control you can start downshifting through the gears.
Exactly.

The following is an article I wrote for Motorcycle Mojo Magazine on Emergency Braking. Hopefully you find some helpful info.

Stopping Fast!

Iíve seen it happen on more than one occasion, motorcyclists attempting to make an emergency stop making all sorts of detrimental errors. Iíve seen them lock up the rear tire severely and end up sliding across the pavement in an avoidable low side. Iíve seen them lock up the front tire, wobble dramatically from side to side and end up sliding across the pavement. Iíve seen people freeze, barely get on the brakes at all, and end up hitting the very thing they were trying to avoid. Iíve even witnessed a rider grab the front brake so hard and for so long that he rose up into a massive stoppie with the bike continuing to gain altitude until it was flipping over on top of him.

All of these errors are avoidable and with a little bit of rider education and training, emergency braking can become a well-learned and well-executed skill. Itís one of the things we coach at the California Superbike School during the two-day camp program, and something Iíve worked on with students in other rider training programs that Iíve been a part of.

Lets talk first about locking up the rear tire. Itís easy to do. It doesnít take much pressure on the lever to get it to lock up and in most cases can cause unnecessary problems. With a locked up rear tire you lose valuable traction and the back end has a tendency to fish tail, or skid violently to one side or the other. Less pressure on the rear will help to prevent this from happening, and if you do lock it up, just let off the pressure gently until it is no longer locked. Donít slam it on, and donít chop it off.

I personally donít use the rear brake at all, except if I happen to run off the track or off the road and end up in gravel or dirt, then I will use the rear brake to help me slow down as a grab on the front brake will surely send me face first into the ground. On a sportbike, you can get 100% of your braking done with the front, and even on bigger and heavier bikes like cruisers or Harleyís most of the braking can be done with the front only.

I did a series of braking exercises with several riders on various models and brands of bikes. First, their speed and stopping distance was measured with them using a combo of both front and rear brakes, and then with them just using their front. To the surprise of many of the riders, the stopping distance and execution was better when they used the front brake only. Iím not saying that you have to do this, or that you shouldnít use the rear brake at all, only that it is possible and can possibly provide better results. Try it.

Most riders have experienced to some degree the feeling of locking up the rear tire and are somewhat comfortable with it. Locking up the front wheel on a motorcycle however is much more elusive and therefore when it does happen can be one of the most terrifying parts of riding.

At the California Superbike School we have a bizarre looking motorcycle in the fleet of specialized training bikes, a Kawasaki Ninja 650R that has long yellow poles sticking out of the sides. The poles have small skateboard wheels on the ends of them and are designed to act a little bit like training wheels. They prevent the bike from tipping over, and crashing in a low-side and therefore provide extra confidence for students that are learning about emergency braking. The idea behind the Panic Brake Trainer, designed by Keith Code, is to allow students to experience a fully locked front wheel and then be trained to save it.

The exercise is to have the students get the bike into second gear, approximately 50km/hour and have them get on the front brake as if they were trying to avoid hitting something. From there we coach them on progressively pulling the front brake lever until the front wheel locks. When the front locks it often makes a loud chattering noise or skidding noise and sometimes a puff of smoke rises off the wheel. The tendency, when this happens to the rider, is to either let off the brakes completely which most often results in hitting the thing they were trying to avoid, or to keep the same amount of pressure on the brake lever, which continues the front wheel skid and usually results in a low side crash. Most have never felt this sensation before so they panic and donít know what to do.

When our students finally lock up the front we coach them to come out of the brake a little bit, nice and gently, to the point where the front is no longer locked. This way, they continue to come to a stop but will no longer be testing traction with a locked front wheel. Most students find this exercise very valuable for two distinct reasons. One, they get to see how much pressure it takes on the lever to get the front to lock up, and two, they get to practice locking up the front and then saving it, without fear of crashing the bike. Most are surprised by just how much front brake they can apply without actually locking up the front tire.

Other things that will help make braking smooth and problem free include lever squeezing technique and body position on the bike. I usually recommend using two fingers on the front brake lever and pulling with smooth and progressive pressure. Avoid snatching the front brake or squeezing hard and fast at the end of braking. Also, avoid having super stiff or straight arms as you will transfer that pressure into the handlebars and can initiate a wobbling back and fourth that could turn into a tank slapper. Pinching the tank with your knees will help to keep the weight off your arms, and will also keep your body weight from sliding forward and putting too much weight on the front tire.

When you do find yourself in a situation of having to emergency brake, try to avoid target fixing on the object that you are trying not to hit. Focus on the braking and on seeing the available space around you that you could utilize. If you are able to brake safely and come to a complete stop then do so, if you think you are not able to brake hard enough to avoid the situation then you could brake hard to scrub off speed, release the brake completely and then quick steer around the problem. Donít try to steer the bike with any amount of brake on.

Lastly, even though stoppies look cool, having the rear wheel in the air is not the safest way to come to a stop. A lot of people accidentally end up with the rear wheel lifting off the ground because they squeezed the brake lever harder at the end of their braking, almost like a little stab, and they let their entire body weight slide into the tank which puts too much weight forward, lightens the rear and results in a reverse wheelie. Squeezing the tank, relaxing the arms and pulling the brake in smoothly and evenly will help prevent this from happening.

This is one riding skill that can be practiced in a parking lot or empty side street. Start slowly and work on squeezing the brake lever smoothly and consistently and come to a complete stop. Then try to pull the lever a little harder and stop a little quicker. It pays to have at least practiced this skill a few times so that if you do suddenly find yourself in an emergency braking situation, you are better able to handle it.

Ride Safe,

Misti Hurst
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:29 AM   #21
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whoa! that was usefull... really good article...but i have a few questions:

-when you talk about locking the front wheel do you mean when braking while banking, or on a loose/slippery road?? When I hit thought brakes hard.. i go harsh up to the point when the rear begins feeling very light or slightly lift..then ease off..is it common for your front to lock up in upright position on good pavement? i thought the main concern was stoppieing..

-isn't shortest possible stopping distance done by using both brakes (slightly more upfront)?
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Old 11-06-2012, 05:20 AM   #22
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Holy crap...

Peeps, don't offer advice if you know not what you are talking about... Get somebody killed. These posts should be deleted... Help mods!

your front brake is only about 70% of your braking power... Hmmmm, so where's the rest of it?

In an emergency situation, you need to be using both brakes. You need to practice quick stops so that you are well prepared or conditioned to do it correctly when that unexpected emergency arises. It's easy to lock up the brakes, which you never want to do on a motorcycle. When you lock the brakes up, you lose traction for whichever tire is locked up.

If you do lock up the front brake, ease of the front brake till it starts rolling again then reapply as necessary.

If you lock up the rear tire, then DO NOT RELEASE THE REAR BRAKE. When you lock up the rear, your bike will almost always start "fish tailing". if your wheels aren't lined up, then when you release the rear the bike will automatically try to correct itself and the rear will kick back in line with the front wheel. This will throw you off the bike. Also known as a high side.

It's very important to practice in a controlled environment so that when the time comes, you give yourself a greater chance of successfully avoiding an accident.

And, yes, you should also be downshifting in the process. As someone said earlier, if you did manage to stop in time, nothing's says the guy behind you will. And you can't skip out of there quickly if you are in 4th gear. You want to be in first when you come to a stop. This is for routine stops as well.
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Old 11-06-2012, 06:30 AM   #23
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Holy crap...

Peeps, don't offer advice if you know not what you are talking about... Get somebody killed. These posts should be deleted... Help mods!

your front brake is only about 70% of your braking power... Hmmmm, so where's the rest of it?

In an emergency situation, you need to be using both brakes. You need to practice quick stops so that you are well prepared or conditioned to do it correctly when that unexpected emergency arises. It's easy to lock up the brakes, which you never want to do on a motorcycle. When you lock the brakes up, you lose traction for whichever tire is locked up.

If you do lock up the front brake, ease of the front brake till it starts rolling again then reapply as necessary.

If you lock up the rear tire, then DO NOT RELEASE THE REAR BRAKE. When you lock up the rear, your bike will almost always start "fish tailing". if your wheels aren't lined up, then when you release the rear the bike will automatically try to correct itself and the rear will kick back in line with the front wheel. This will throw you off the bike. Also known as a high side.

It's very important to practice in a controlled environment so that when the time comes, you give yourself a greater chance of successfully avoiding an accident.

And, yes, you should also be downshifting in the process. As someone said earlier, if you did manage to stop in time, nothing's says the guy behind you will. And you can't skip out of there quickly if you are in 4th gear. You want to be in first when you come to a stop. This is for routine stops as well.
Not saying any of what you said is wrong, but misti hurst is definitely not wrong IF you were implying it. The rear brake is great, I love it and think it should be used in emergency stops, but I think people need to master the front first, since as you said it is 70%, then try and master the other 30%. I am a beginner trying to master both simultaneously is not a good idea. There is also the issue of how easier it becomes to lock the rear because of the weight transfer to the front end so a smoother and more controlled applicatioon of rear brake is required compared to other scenarios. So my take on it; master front, master rear, combine.
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Old 11-06-2012, 06:37 AM   #24
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Not saying any of what you said is wrong, but misti hurst is definitely not wrong IF you were implying it. The rear brake is great, I love it and think it should be used in emergency stops, but I think people need to master the front first, since as you said it is 70%, then try and master the other 30%. I am a beginner trying to master both simultaneously is not a good idea. There is also the issue of how easier it becomes to lock the rear because of the weight transfer to the front end so a smoother and more controlled applicatioon of rear brake is required compared to other scenarios. So my take on it; master front, master rear, combine.
Sure, makes total sense to learn the wrong way on purpose first, then try and correct that and learn the wrong way second... Logical.
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:56 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Sgt Danimal View Post
Holy crap...

Peeps, don't offer advice if you know not what you are talking about... Get somebody killed. These posts should be deleted... Help mods!

your front brake is only about 70% of your braking power... Hmmmm, so where's the rest of it?

In an emergency situation, you need to be using both brakes. You need to practice quick stops so that you are well prepared or conditioned to do it correctly when that unexpected emergency arises. It's easy to lock up the brakes, which you never want to do on a motorcycle. When you lock the brakes up, you lose traction for whichever tire is locked up.

If you do lock up the front brake, ease of the front brake till it starts rolling again then reapply as necessary.

If you lock up the rear tire, then DO NOT RELEASE THE REAR BRAKE. When you lock up the rear, your bike will almost always start "fish tailing". if your wheels aren't lined up, then when you release the rear the bike will automatically try to correct itself and the rear will kick back in line with the front wheel. This will throw you off the bike. Also known as a high side.

It's very important to practice in a controlled environment so that when the time comes, you give yourself a greater chance of successfully avoiding an accident.

And, yes, you should also be downshifting in the process. As someone said earlier, if you did manage to stop in time, nothing's says the guy behind you will. And you can't skip out of there quickly if you are in 4th gear. You want to be in first when you come to a stop. This is for routine stops as well.
What exactly are you saying is wrong that others have posted?
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Old 11-07-2012, 01:50 AM   #26
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Sure, makes total sense to learn the wrong way on purpose first, then try and correct that and learn the wrong way second... Logical.
Yup, it makes sense, you got a problem with that? If you want to explain why my approach is flawed and yours isn't, then do so. Otherwise, just stop acting like an ass to beginner and expert riders.
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:17 AM   #27
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Yup, pulling the clutch in doesnt do anything for you, it actually makes you brake harder because you have completely rid your bike of any engine braking. Keep the clutch engaged at least if you dont want to downshift and rev match, which will still prevent you from getting out of sudden situations because you wont be in the right gear to accelerate effectively but might reduce the demand on your brakes and front wheel locking up.
Aren't you the guy who admits to crashing twice this year from inexperienced riding? How is it that you are now an expert on riding techniques? Sounds to me you need more time on that bike and less time on that key board.
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:35 AM   #28
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simply put... we teach that you should squeeze your lever like your wringing out a sponge. the only on off switch on a motorcycle are the electrical ones.

you want to brake hard enough to just avoid a lock up. You will get your maximum stopping power using BOTH brakes straight up and down, if you can get them to a fraction of a squeeze away from locking up. We are not allowed to video tape our classes (something about student privacy crap). I have seen students take a cbr 125 and brake hard enough to lift the rear wheel and not crash. (also seen a few crash LoL). the bikes we use allow the students to take them to the limit in a controlled setting. i prefer to teach the emergency stopping on a titan 150. I can use only the back brake, lock it and un lock it 3-5 times before stopping. I also show them what happens when you lock the front. Sometimes i drop the bike and sometimes i recover it.

the key thing is practice practice practice. if that means you chew the **** out of a tire or 2 in a parking lot, you want to be able to react without thinking. if your brain already knows what to do you will do it faster. A key to surviving on a motorcycle is your ability to react quickly to the dangers.
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:45 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crash277 View Post
simply put... we teach that you should squeeze your lever like your wringing out a sponge. the only on off switch on a motorcycle are the electrical ones.

you want to brake hard enough to just avoid a lock up. You will get your maximum stopping power using BOTH brakes straight up and down, if you can get them to a fraction of a squeeze away from locking up. We are not allowed to video tape our classes (something about student privacy crap). I have seen students take a cbr 125 and brake hard enough to lift the rear wheel and not crash. (also seen a few crash LoL). the bikes we use allow the students to take them to the limit in a controlled setting. i prefer to teach the emergency stopping on a titan 150. I can use only the back brake, lock it and un lock it 3-5 times before stopping. I also show them what happens when you lock the front. Sometimes i drop the bike and sometimes i recover it.

the key thing is practice practice practice. if that means you chew the **** out of a tire or 2 in a parking lot, you want to be able to react without thinking. if your brain already knows what to do you will do it faster. A key to surviving on a motorcycle is your ability to react quickly to the dangers.
Finally some good advice.

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Old 11-08-2012, 02:08 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by SLCrideRR View Post
Aren't you the guy who admits to crashing twice this year from inexperienced riding? How is it that you are now an expert on riding techniques? Sounds to me you need more time on that bike and less time on that key board.
Never claimed to be an expert; from the knowledge I gathered on hereand other sources, I described one approach to emergency braking practice which I obtained from experienced riders. If you think it's wrong, then explain why? Constructive criticism is paramount to the purpose of this forum, I welcome it. Acting like a troll isn't.
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