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Old 12-05-2012, 10:30 AM   #1
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Gun control discussion

Ok,

Posts relating to gun control have been moved into here.

While it is certainly understandable that many people feel quite passionately one way or the other, please refrain from attacking a member for their views, however, feel free to disagree and question them.
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:45 PM   #2
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Gun control discussion

Get ready to hear about gun control
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:56 PM   #3
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Get ready to hear about gun control
I just came in here to post that.....
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Old 12-14-2012, 05:01 PM   #4
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I'm sure we will hear lots of ramblings from the left about it soon. However nothing came out of all the other ones carried out in the past decade. Hard to say for sure what the future holds.

Having said that, Washington needs to figure out how to balance a check book and fix our problems before making knee jerk reactions. Wishful thinking I know...
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Old 12-14-2012, 05:05 PM   #5
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very wishful....


and on a side note.... wont be long before AR's are outlawed.
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Old 12-14-2012, 05:16 PM   #6
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I'm a liberal but I have a strong belief in the 2nd amendment. We don't need to be able to purchase M16's but handgun laws and hunting rifle laws shouldn't be touched.
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Old 12-14-2012, 05:18 PM   #7
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I'm a liberal but I have a strong belief in the 2nd amendment. We don't need to be able to purchase M16's but handgun laws and hunting rifle laws shouldn't be touched.
not going to touch this with a 10 foot poll...... yet. haha
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Old 12-14-2012, 05:22 PM   #8
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Yeah I know it's a touchy subject.
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Old 12-14-2012, 05:27 PM   #9
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FWIW I think gun control is a good thing, particularly when it comes to assault weapons and handguns. The only thing they are designed for is shooting people, so aside from owning one because you have a right to, why have them?

If those guns are outlawed then the chance of getting shot will reduce. There will of course be those that don't hand them back but most will get caught eventually.

Australia's attitude towards gun laws is the right one I think, but they have gone too far... over here if you want to own a gun you have to have a reason for it (say hunting or target shooting) you then have to go do a course on gun safety (not a bad thing) and then you can apply for your license which will take up to 6 - 9 months to receive. Once you have that you can apply to purchase a particular type of gun (ie shotgun, rim fire, centre fire) and then you have to wait around 3 months for that to be approved at which point you can go get that type of gun. If you want two types of gun then you have to wait for each one...
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Old 12-14-2012, 09:56 PM   #10
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I'm a liberal but I have a strong belief in the 2nd amendment. We don't need to be able to purchase M16's but handgun laws and hunting rifle laws shouldn't be touched.
I respectfully disagree. I don't own assault rifles, I own modern semiautomatic rifles that have many purposes including hunting, target shooting, self defense, and competition. We lose these, how long before they come for our handguns, bolt action rifles and shotguns? How far after that do we give up knives with pointy ends and glass cups in bars like the UK? Slippery slope we are on.
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:15 PM   #11
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Outlaw guns and only outlaws will have guns. I live in MA so it's tough to get certain guns here. It's terrible. Although not as bad as Australia. Gun control isn't the answer. There were no guns used in 9/11. Timothy McVeigh didn't use a gun in Oklahoma City. There are a million & one ways to kill people & you won't get rid of all of them.
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:25 PM   #12
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So question for you guys in favor of gun control.

Should we ban our beloved RRs? They are race bikes and should not be owned by the general public. In the hands of the wrong people they can become deadly. They can kill innocent people.


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Old 12-14-2012, 10:31 PM   #13
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^^ Good one. I like that. Well played sir. Well played.
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:43 PM   #14
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So question for you guys in favor of gun control.

Should we ban GIXXERS? They are SQUID bikes and should not be owned by the general public. In the hands of the wrong people they can become deadly. They can kill innocent people.


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Old 12-14-2012, 10:51 PM   #15
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FWIW I think gun control is a good thing.....If you want two types of gun then you have to wait for each one...
I should be doing other things than debating gun control on a Friday night, but oh well, here it goes.

Assault weapons are extremely cost prohibitive to own, require mountains of bureaucratic paperwork and stamps along with background checks. When was the last time someone used an assault weapon in a shooting? If my memory serves me correct, the North Hollywood bank shootout in 1997, where they used full-auto AK-47s. Too many individuals are either too anti-gun or ignorant to know the difference between a real assault weapon and a modern semi-automatic rifle that just happens to look scary. Handguns are also highly regulated with background checks. Most states require handguns that are sold must go through a dealer. They in turn, call for a background check, before allowing the transfer. For states that don't require background checks to do a face-to-face sale, driver's license info and a bill of sale are usually the standard operating procedure.

The attitude of Australians/Brits/foreigners is very different than the people of the USA. For one reason or another, we're quite a violent bunch of people relative to the rest of world and experience or know of more random acts of violence. That in-turn, makes the everyday citizen have a different attitude towards self-defense, the ability to conceal carry, and the job of the police. Also, we're such a large mix of individuals and ideologies that we can't take the same laws that work in Aus or the UK and make them work here. I would guess that if those countries were as large as us with the same mix of races and ideologies, that they would have the same amount violence as we do. I also, understand why people from Aus think their long wait system for gun control works, but what effect would that have on the US? Instead of an individual committing a crime today, it would just happen 3, 6, 9 months later in the future where IMO, they would have more time to plan an attack.

So what happens if you completely ban guns in the US? The same crazy individuals will go on killing sprees with knives, which IMO, are far more deadly than a bullet. Don't think someone can put down 20+ victims in a short period with a knife? Then you should look in the news today, where in China where some crazy guy attacked 22 individuals at a school. It's an eerie coincidence that will go unnoticed due to the media pushing their anti-gun agenda.

So you want to outlaw knives? Then the same criminal commits crimes with hammers, screwdrivers, baseball bats, etc. Sure, banning weapons will reduce the risk of being shot/stabbed/hammered, but it doesn't make me safer from the person who wants to commit the crime. A criminal doing something illegal will find ways to get the tools they need to commit the crime, regardless of what legal barriers are in their way. Perfect examples of this fact are the cities Chicago and NYC, where handguns are/were banned but crimes involving guns and knives happen on a hourly basis. Heck, Chicago broke their all-time record of 400+ deaths this year, mainly due to handguns. So how does this happen in a place where handguns are illegal? (That's sarcasm in the last sentence, if you didn't notice.)

What I'm trying illustrate here, is that crime is a sick passion. If an individual wants to kill a movie theater full of people, they will do it by any means, whether that be a rifle, locking the doors and setting the place on fire or by setting off an explosion.
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:53 PM   #16
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So question for you guys in favor of gun control.

Should we ban our beloved RRs? They are race bikes and should not be owned by the general public. In the hands of the wrong people they can become deadly. They can kill innocent people.
The same thought process can be used against banning "high-capacity" magazines.
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:13 AM   #17
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Guns don't kill people, sick people kill people with all sorts of weapons.

Like I said, I really don't see the need for military grade assault rifles but I'm not for restricting them. I like the gun laws how they are, nothing needs to be changed.
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:26 AM   #18
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:51 AM   #19
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Crap I was hoping to avoid this conversation on here when its blowin up my news feed on FB and my other 2 gun forums I frequent...

Guess ill be avoiding this section for a bit..


And my views in a nut shell guns don't cure all sick people will ruin it either way pro or non pro... And gun controls/"gun free zones" are bs and don't work.

Anyone full guns will fix everything is just as idiotic as people saying banning guns will.
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Old 12-15-2012, 04:42 AM   #20
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I should be doing other things than debating gun control on a Friday night, but oh well, here it goes.

Assault weapons are extremely cost prohibitive to own, require mountains of bureaucratic paperwork and stamps along with background checks. When was the last time someone used an assault weapon in a shooting? If my memory serves me correct, the North Hollywood bank shootout in 1997, where they used full-auto AK-47s. Too many individuals are either too anti-gun or ignorant to know the difference between a real assault weapon and a modern semi-automatic rifle that just happens to look scary. Handguns are also highly regulated with background checks. Most states require handguns that are sold must go through a dealer. They in turn, call for a background check, before allowing the transfer. For states that don't require background checks to do a face-to-face sale, driver's license info and a bill of sale are usually the standard operating procedure.

The attitude of Australians/Brits/foreigners is very different than the people of the USA. For one reason or another, we're quite a violent bunch of people relative to the rest of world and experience or know of more random acts of violence. That in-turn, makes the everyday citizen have a different attitude towards self-defense, the ability to conceal carry, and the job of the police. Also, we're such a large mix of individuals and ideologies that we can't take the same laws that work in Aus or the UK and make them work here. I would guess that if those countries were as large as us with the same mix of races and ideologies, that they would have the same amount violence as we do. I also, understand why people from Aus think their long wait system for gun control works, but what effect would that have on the US? Instead of an individual committing a crime today, it would just happen 3, 6, 9 months later in the future where IMO, they would have more time to plan an attack.

So what happens if you completely ban guns in the US? The same crazy individuals will go on killing sprees with knives, which IMO, are far more deadly than a bullet. Don't think someone can put down 20+ victims in a short period with a knife? Then you should look in the news today, where in China where some crazy guy attacked 22 individuals at a school. It's an eerie coincidence that will go unnoticed due to the media pushing their anti-gun agenda.

So you want to outlaw knives? Then the same criminal commits crimes with hammers, screwdrivers, baseball bats, etc. Sure, banning weapons will reduce the risk of being shot/stabbed/hammered, but it doesn't make me safer from the person who wants to commit the crime. A criminal doing something illegal will find ways to get the tools they need to commit the crime, regardless of what legal barriers are in their way. Perfect examples of this fact are the cities Chicago and NYC, where handguns are/were banned but crimes involving guns and knives happen on a hourly basis. Heck, Chicago broke their all-time record of 400+ deaths this year, mainly due to handguns. So how does this happen in a place where handguns are illegal? (That's sarcasm in the last sentence, if you didn't notice.)

What I'm trying illustrate here, is that crime is a sick passion. If an individual wants to kill a movie theater full of people, they will do it by any means, whether that be a rifle, locking the doors and setting the place on fire or by setting off an explosion.
I would consider a semi-automatic an assault weapon. That may or may not be correct, but that's my view...

It's also illegal over here to carry a knife, unless it can be substantiated that it's for work reasons... which essentially restricts them to being carried by farmers, and only at times and in places that would fit that purpose.

The long wait thing over here is crap, not a fan of that. A small wait is certainly understandable and warranted but making it take 12+ months is just dumb.

The thing is that if you aren't allowed to have hand guns then lots of people wouldn't... that reduces the likelihood of some delinquent getting one as there are suddenly a lot less being produced and imported and a lot less houses to try and steal one from.

And yep, I'd get rid of high capacity magazines as well, 10 rounds is more than enough in one mag for the average person.

Would gun control completely remove every occurrence of mass murder? Only the truly naive would believe that, but it certainly can't hurt.

And if you think that America is the only multicultural country around you would be quite mistaken, yet we don't have the same issues you guys do even once the population difference is taken in to account.

Has Australia got gun control right? Hell no, but I reckon we are in a better position that you guys over there.

The thing that gets me though is that so many of you put your right to bear arms before the lives of so many people, particularly kids.

There will always be those with a legitimate reason to carry certain weapons, such as professional hunters and armed guards etc but they can be taken care of as well.

Would it be that bad if you could only have a bolt action rifle instead of an AR15? Would it seriously affect your ability to hunt recreationally?

Anything that makes it harder for those individuals that try to commit these crimes or slows them down in the process can only be a good thing, and should be considered (not necessarily adopted though).

It's a different world you guys live in over there and I just find it bizarre that
so many of you wouldn't like to see something done to improve it.

So aside from the 'Don't impinge on my rights' and the almost impossible to substantiate 'there is no proof so we shouldn't do it' arguments is there actually any valid argument for keeping the laws the way the currently are?

Is there any reason that what works over here can't also work there?
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Old 12-15-2012, 10:10 AM   #21
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Again, you just don't get it. I own several AR15 rifles and I have legitimate uses for them besides hunting. I use mine as a home defense weapon along with a pistol, I use it for competition and training as well.

The facts of this school shooting is this.

20 year old shooter (can't have hand gun)
20 year old shooter (can't buy ammo for hand gun)
Shooting happened in a "gun free zone"
CT has very restrictive gun laws as is compared to where I live.
Guns used were stolen so more backgrounds checks won't work.

Existing gun laws didn't work. An unstable kid carried out a heinous act and he hit a "soft target" where he knew he could inflict mass damage. Part of the problem IMO is we keep pitting these monsters up on a pillar. It gives every loser who wants to make a name for himself before checking out an anti hero.

Finally, look at Finland. All the gun laws in the world couldn't stop that.

The common pattern is a monster who picks an easy target and inflicts casualties. Laws can't fix evil.
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Old 12-15-2012, 10:53 AM   #22
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When they banned guns in ill (chicago mostly) the crime rate in ONE YEAR went up 400% because now the common man can't own a gun and can't protect themselves from the criminals who illegaly got hands on a gun. Now they know they have the upper hand and can and will use it to get your fancy ass new tv while you sit in the corner at gun point. F*** that. I have gunS. Mine provide my family with food. Mine provide my family (and tv) with protection. Mine provide me a hobby. Am I going to go blast up a mall, school, movie, concert etc. No hell to the f**k no! Will new gun laws keep me from doing my only duty as a man, going back to the very very begining of man kind and cave men, provide food and protection. Chances are yes, yes they will in one way or another. Do some need to be altered, maybe replaces or withdrawl, to tiddy them up a bit. Yes, nothing is perfect, always room for improvment. Should they U turn and withdraw and change everyone? No.
If you came and looked in my house at the amount of guns, bows, knifes, I have you'd think I was nuts or after zombies. If you talk w me for 5 minutes and in anyway think I shouldn't have them or I'm unfit to have them. You need to be locked up.
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Old 12-15-2012, 11:09 AM   #23
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I knew this would be all over this thread... thoughts and prayers go out!
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:28 PM   #24
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Old 12-15-2012, 03:05 PM   #25
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When they banned guns in ill (chicago mostly) the crime rate in ONE YEAR went up 400% because now the common man can't own a gun and can't protect themselves from the criminals who illegaly got hands on a gun. Now they know they have the upper hand and can and will use it to get your fancy ass new tv while you sit in the corner at gun point. F*** that. I have gunS. Mine provide my family with food. Mine provide my family (and tv) with protection. Mine provide me a hobby. Am I going to go blast up a mall, school, movie, concert etc. No hell to the f**k no! Will new gun laws keep me from doing my only duty as a man, going back to the very very begining of man kind and cave men, provide food and protection. Chances are yes, yes they will in one way or another. Do some need to be altered, maybe replaces or withdrawl, to tiddy them up a bit. Yes, nothing is perfect, always room for improvment. Should they U turn and withdraw and change everyone? No.
If you came and looked in my house at the amount of guns, bows, knifes, I have you'd think I was nuts or after zombies. If you talk w me for 5 minutes and in anyway think I shouldn't have them or I'm unfit to have them. You need to be locked up.
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Old 12-15-2012, 03:38 PM   #26
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I don't own assault rifles, I own modern semiautomatic rifles that have many purposes including hunting, target shooting, self defense, and competition. We lose these, how long before they come for our handguns, bolt action rifles and shotguns? How far after that do we give up knives with pointy ends and glass cups in bars like the UK? Slippery slope we are on.
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Originally Posted by HighzerOfLife View Post
So question for you guys in favor of gun control.

Should we ban our beloved RRs? They are race bikes and should not be owned by the general public. In the hands of the wrong people they can become deadly. They can kill innocent people.

"'Guns don't kill people, people do.' Right?



Fine. By that logic, motorcycles don't kill people. But we still have speed limits. We still have to wear helmets (well most do). We still need to take a driver's test. And yet it's far harder in most parts of the USA to get a learner's permit than a gun permit.


Let's not forget 9/11, we didn't blame airplanes, no. But you know what we did do that very first day? Grounded all of them until we figured out how to make them safer. Then we figured out how to make sure the wrong people don't get on them.


Unlike motorcycles and planes, a gun is a thing that is designed to help you injure other things (ideally deer or robbers, but REALLY ANYTHING YOU POINT IT AT). They're built with a degree of inherent malice. So why should they, of all things, get a pass? Why should we hem and haw over this one piece of technology when we take such decisive action everywhere else?"
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Old 12-15-2012, 03:49 PM   #27
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We do have to jump through hoops to get guns. Get permits, background checks, all that kind of stuff. And in the states that have these shootings they are some of the most restrictive gun law states. Doesn't seem to help.




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Old 12-15-2012, 03:56 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fast316 View Post
"'Guns don't kill people, people do.' Right?



Fine. By that logic, motorcycles don't kill people. But we still have speed limits. We still have to wear helmets (well most do). We still need to take a driver's test. And yet it's far harder in most parts of the USA to get a learner's permit than a gun permit.


Let's not forget 9/11, we didn't blame airplanes, no. But you know what we did do that very first day? Grounded all of them until we figured out how to make them safer. Then we figured out how to make sure the wrong people don't get on them.


Unlike motorcycles and planes, a gun is a thing that is designed to help you injure other things (ideally deer or robbers, but REALLY ANYTHING YOU POINT IT AT). They're built with a degree of inherent malice. So why should they, of all things, get a pass? Why should we hem and haw over this one piece of technology when we take such decisive action everywhere else?"
I think you underestimate what we already have in place with regard to firearms restrictions for law abiding citizens. You also don't seem to understand that what was already in place, had no effect on the shooter carrying out his actions.

You can't legislate out evil.
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Old 12-15-2012, 04:08 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by mxrider View Post
i think you underestimate what we already have in place with regard to firearms restrictions for law abiding citizens. You also don't seem to understand that what was already in place, had no effect on the shooter carrying out his actions.

You can't legislate out evil.


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Old 12-15-2012, 05:02 PM   #30
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Bottom line, anywhere in the world guns used for criminal activity is mostly unlicensed. So my point is, the politicians must look further than their own agendas and start working in a direction to control unlicensed firearms/weapons.
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