Honda CBR 600RR Forum banner

1 - 17 of 17 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hej,

Here's my bike in it's youth. It's still a stock 2004 600RR, but it's suffering from me being an idiot...

The battery died, and i jumped it from a van. With the engine on. So i've damaged something and now everything looks ok on start-up, clocks light, no MIL, the HISS light goes out, the starter engages, but the fuel pump won't prime, so it won't start

I used Ldn's very helpful post and i think i've narrowed down the problem, but i'm not quite there yet....

I've checked the stand switch, the bank angle sensor, neutral indicator, ignition and clutch switches and all seem to work fine. The engine stop is engaging, but the fuel cut relay isn't. If i short the ECU side of the fuel cut relay coil to ground it does pull in and then i get power at the fuel pump. I've checked the wire from the relay to the ECU and there's continuity, so i think this is telling me the ECU thinks there is a problem.

I think i've checked all the switches it needs, so am i right that either the ECU is damaged, or the HISS is? As it's in the ignition which is pretty much directly on the battery i put too many amps to i guess that a possibility? There's no detail of the how the HISS system works in the workshop manual (for obvious reasons) but does anyone know how i can check that, and also has anyone used a ECU repair service, i would rather not have to replace the ECU, ignition and seat lock if i can avoid it.

Or have I missed something else? Any help very gratefully received.
 

·
Registered
2018 S1000RR Blue/White/Carbon 2015 R3 Red/White 2006 CBR600RR (blacked out)
Joined
·
37 Posts
Hej,
If i short the ECU side of that relay coil to ground it does pull in and then i get power at the fuel pump. I've checked the wire from the relay to the ECU and there's continuity, so i think this is telling me the ECU thinks there is a problem.
when you do this the pump primes and the bike starts and runs?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Unfortunately not as the fuel pump's dead. I've ordered a replacement, but i'll need to get power to it when it arrives. I've not checked for ignition sparks yet though, so that could be another problem!
 

·
Registered
2018 S1000RR Blue/White/Carbon 2015 R3 Red/White 2006 CBR600RR (blacked out)
Joined
·
37 Posts
Unfortunately not as the fuel pump's dead. I've ordered a replacement, but i'll need to get power to it when it arrives. I've not check for ignition sparks yet though, so that could be another problem!
once you get the new pump and install it i can give you a work around for this issue. For now as long as the bike cranks you can do a spark test on the coils. Remove a coil and a plug from the engine, install the plug into the coil and plug it in. hold the coil next to the motor so the hex sided or threaded portion of the spark plug touchs a ground and crank the engine, watch for spark from the plug as you crank the motor.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
once you get the new pump and install it i can give you a work around for this issue. For now as long as the bike cranks you can do a spark test on the coils. Remove a coil and a plug from the engine, install the plug into the coil and plug it in. hold the coil next to the motor so the hex sided or threaded portion of the spark plug touchs a ground and crank the engine, watch for spark from the plug as you crank the motor.
Thank you. A couple of the hex bolts have corroded in the rubber nuts so I've not been able to get plastics off and get the radiator out of the way, I'll put some more effort in while I wait for the pump!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Thank you. A couple of the hex bolts have corroded in the rubber nuts so I've not been able to get plastics off and get the radiator out of the way, I'll put some more effort in while I wait for the pump!
once you get the new pump and install it i can give you a work around for this issue. For now as long as the bike cranks you can do a spark test on the coils. Remove a coil and a plug from the engine, install the plug into the coil and plug it in. hold the coil next to the motor so the hex sided or threaded portion of the spark plug touchs a ground and crank the engine, watch for spark from the plug as you crank the motor.
I cheated and sprayed some easy start in, the bike fired up first time on it, the ignition system is working fine. :) It was nice to hear it running, even for a few seconds. :)
 

·
Registered
2018 S1000RR Blue/White/Carbon 2015 R3 Red/White 2006 CBR600RR (blacked out)
Joined
·
37 Posts
Ok so i downloaded the service manual and poured over the wiring diagram and here's my findings

Engine stop relay (4 pins)
(Control side)
Black wire supplies power
Red wire with white tracer goes to Bank angle sensor (grounds relay)
(Output side)
Red wire/white tracer (battery positive)
Brown Wire voltage supply to Fuel cut relay

Fuel cut relay (4 pins)
(control side)
Brown wire black tracer (ground supplied by ECU at pin 25)
Black wire white tracer (power supplied by Engine stop relay)
(output side)
Black wire white tracer (powers fan relay control side, exhaust air inject solenoid, all injectors, ECM pin 16, service port, both O2 sensors, purge solenoid)
Brown Wire powers fuel pump only when relay is "on"

Bank Angle sensor (3 wires)
Green wire (ground constant)
White Wire black tracer supplied power from Fuse "d" which also supplies power to black wire that controls power side of control circuit of Engine stop relay through stop/start switch (red switch on handle bars)
Red wire with white tracer supplies ground to control circuit ground of the Engine Stop relay

Bank angle sensors job is to ground the control side of the engine stop relay so that the fuel cut relay can power all other systems except the fuel pump (ECU grounds the control side of the fuel cut relay)
Fuel cut relay can be NOT energized and as long as engine stop relay works everything but fuel pump will operate

Therefore when you jump the wire from pin 25 of the ECU to the relay control side of the fuel cut relay you finally get power to your pump which therefore tells me everything else is fine since when you spray quick start the bike runs. This means that you can safely provide a constant ground to the Fuel cut relay and bypass the ECU doing this for you and the pump won't energize until you have the key in, turned on, and start switch turned on since the Engine cut relay when energized will finally complete the circuit for power to be supplied to your pump. However your ECU will no longer have the ability to cut fuel supply off. If the bike tips over however and the bank sensor registers as the bike being on its side and powers down the Engine Stop relay your Fuel cut relay won't operate either.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Ok so i downloaded the service manual and poured over the wiring diagram and here's my findings

Engine stop relay (4 pins)
(Control side)
Black wire supplies power
Red wire with white tracer goes to Bank angle sensor (grounds relay)
(Output side)
Red wire/white tracer (battery positive)
Brown Wire voltage supply to Fuel cut relay

Fuel cut relay (4 pins)
(control side)
Brown wire black tracer (ground supplied by ECU at pin 25)
Black wire white tracer (power supplied by Engine stop relay)
(output side)
Black wire white tracer (powers fan relay control side, exhaust air inject solenoid, all injectors, ECM pin 16, service port, both O2 sensors, purge solenoid)
Brown Wire powers fuel pump only when relay is "on"

Bank Angle sensor (3 wires)
Green wire (ground constant)
White Wire black tracer supplied power from Fuse "d" which also supplies power to black wire that controls power side of control circuit of Engine stop relay through stop/start switch (red switch on handle bars)
Red wire with white tracer supplies ground to control circuit ground of the Engine Stop relay

Bank angle sensors job is to ground the control side of the engine stop relay so that the fuel cut relay can power all other systems except the fuel pump (ECU grounds the control side of the fuel cut relay)
Fuel cut relay can be NOT energized and as long as engine stop relay works everything but fuel pump will operate

Therefore when you jump the wire from pin 25 of the ECU to the relay control side of the fuel cut relay you finally get power to your pump which therefore tells me everything else is fine since when you spray quick start the bike runs. This means that you can safely provide a constant ground to the Fuel cut relay and bypass the ECU doing this for you and the pump won't energize until you have the key in, turned on, and start switch turned on since the Engine cut relay when energized will finally complete the circuit for power to be supplied to your pump. However your ECU will no longer have the ability to cut fuel supply off. If the bike tips over however and the bank sensor registers as the bike being on its side and powers down the Engine Stop relay your Fuel cut relay won't operate either.
Thank you very much for taking so much time to help, it's much appreciated. You still find better people on Forums!

Just one bit i'm unsure about, as the bank angle sensor controls the Engine stop relay, if the bike went over it would still cut the engine, so what would cause the ECU want to cut fuel, but leave everything else running, could that be the rev limiter, or does that cut the ignition circuit?

I've found these guys who will check the ECU and seem confident they can repair it. As the ignition system is working correctly (starter engages when the stand is down and in gear in neutral, or clutch in, won't start with the stand down in gear and clutch engaged) and the bank angle sensor is engaging the engine stop relay, have i covered all the sensors so the ECU must be at fault? HISS could also be problem, but the guys are Carmo were confident that as the HISS light lit and went out the ECU has detected the key.

I think i'm tempted to repair the ECU rather than ground the fuel cut off and keep it operating as Honda intended.
 

·
Registered
2018 S1000RR Blue/White/Carbon 2015 R3 Red/White 2006 CBR600RR (blacked out)
Joined
·
37 Posts
Just one bit i'm unsure about, as the bank angle sensor controls the Engine stop relay, if the bike went over it would still cut the engine, so what would cause the ECU want to cut fuel, but leave everything else running, could that be the rev limiter, or does that cut the ignition circuit?
I'm not sure what the enabling conditions are for the ECU to provide the ground at pin 25 and energize the fuel cut relay to power the pump. There could be a lot of things the ECU needs to see to allow that to happen. The fact that the only fault at this time is that missing ground means that all inputs are ok and the enabling conditions have been met but the ECU is not allowing that ground to complete pointing towards and internal failure of the ECU.

Does this repair shop verify their repair will work and that if they do any work to it and then you get it back and it still doesn't work or there's further issues that they'll fix or replace it free of charge? Whats the cost of the repair? Compare that cost to a small section of wire you can install and bypass the fault without any serious repercussions. Personally for the age of the bike and the fact you're clearly mechanically inclined enough to get this far in the diagnosis tells me that spending the money to repair the ECU isn't cost effective. If it were my bike I'd just install the bypass and your new pump and ride it like you stole it.

As for what would cause the engine to want to cut fuel I'm not sure what other reasons the bike would need to cut fuel but the fact that there's a built in control for that means they must have a reason. Maybe it's a redundancy built in as a back up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
I'm not sure what the enabling conditions are for the ECU to provide the ground at pin 25 and energize the fuel cut relay to power the pump. There could be a lot of things the ECU needs to see to allow that to happen. The fact that the only fault at this time is that missing ground means that all inputs are ok and the enabling conditions have been met but the ECU is not allowing that ground to complete pointing towards and internal failure of the ECU.

Does this repair shop verify their repair will work and that if they do any work to it and then you get it back and it still doesn't work or there's further issues that they'll fix or replace it free of charge? Whats the cost of the repair? Compare that cost to a small section of wire you can install and bypass the fault without any serious repercussions. Personally for the age of the bike and the fact you're clearly mechanically inclined enough to get this far in the diagnosis tells me that spending the money to repair the ECU isn't cost effective. If it were my bike I'd just install the bypass and your new pump and ride it like you stole it.

As for what would cause the engine to want to cut fuel I'm not sure what other reasons the bike would need to cut fuel but the fact that there's a built in control for that means they must have a reason. Maybe it's a redundancy built in as a back up.
Thanks again, you're right of course, it's not cost effective, i just like to keep my cars and bikes as OEM as i can. The repair shop will charge for diagnosis (about €75) then there's a fixed price repair which has a guarantee. The guy on the phone clearly knew what he was doing too. You've given me confidence that i haven't missed anything obvious before i send it off, i'd kick myself if the ECU was fine and I missed a sensor, thank you very much for that.
 

·
Registered
2018 S1000RR Blue/White/Carbon 2015 R3 Red/White 2006 CBR600RR (blacked out)
Joined
·
37 Posts
Thanks again, you're right of course, it's not cost effective, i just like to keep my cars and bikes as OEM as i can. The repair shop will charge for diagnosis (about €75) then there's a fixed price repair which has a guarantee. The guy on the phone clearly knew what he was doing too. You've given me confidence that i haven't missed anything obvious before i send it off, i'd kick myself if the ECU was fine and I missed a sensor, thank you very much for that.
Glad to help mate! Keep us posted on the outcome yeah?
 

·
BOTY 2014 Winner
Joined
·
4,935 Posts
hey @Dral,

reading your post, i think you've totally messed this one up with your diagnosis, as have others. or you're not telling a story that makes any sense.



the engine stop relay controls the entire EFI system. if it doesn't pull in (ie kill switch set to run, bank angle sensor satisfied), then you will have no power to any part of your EFI system (ECU, injectors, coils, fuel pump)


when you key on, if the FI lamp doesn't come on for a few seconds and then go out, it means your ECU hasn't powered up.


the coil on the engine stop relay is controlled by the kill switch and the bank angle sensor. not by the ECU. the kill switch is on the front side of the coil, and the bank angle sensor is on the back side of the coil. if either of these trips it will shut down the entire EFI system.

the black/white that comes from the engine stop relay to the ecu is the wire that powers the ecu. not a wire that the ecu uses to control the relay.



the fuel pump relay is simple enough, it gets its power from the engine stop relay on the black/white, which also feeds the front side of the coil. the solid brown powers the fuel pump when the relay is engaged. the relay is controlled by the brown/black wire that goes to the ECU. the ECU switches this wire to ground to turn the pump on.




so basically... it's impossible for the fuel relay to click if the engine stop relay is not on.

the engine stop relay is not controlled by the ECU



if you unplug the pump relay and short the black/white to the solid brown, the pump should run.

if it does you should be able to start the bike without issue.


if it doesn't you need to troubleshoot the power circuit for the pump.



if the pump works with the relay jumped. your next step is to force the brown/black on the pump relay to ground (this is what the ECU does)

with the key on, and kill switch set to run, simply take a piece of wire and connect the brown/black to chassis or battery negative. the pump should run. if it doesn't, swap the pump relay for the fan relay.


finally, check the connection at the ECU of the brown/black. if this is loose or making poor connection it will cause your pump to not function properly.

if the connection is good. take a multimeter and set it to continuity, unplug the fuel pump relay and place one lead on the brown/black in the connector, and the other on battery negative. then toggle the kill switch. when the kill switch is set to run you should get a tone for a few seconds (while the pump would be priming). if you don't, and you have no MIL, then the control contact in the ECU is bad.

keep in mind that any trouble fault in the fuel system will lock out the pump. so if you have an injector code or similar, the pump will not prime. this is part of the safety system of the motorcycle.




finally, if you want to force the pump to run you don't have to do any wiring, just bypass the relay (connect black/white to brown). power on the black/white is controlled by the bank angle sensor, so the pump will run constantly whenever the EFI system is powered. you'd be better off doing that than you would be to try to splice wires in your harness unnecessarily.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
hey @Dral,

reading your post, i think you've totally messed this one up with your diagnosis, as have others. or you're not telling a story that makes any sense.



the engine stop relay controls the entire EFI system. if it doesn't pull in (ie kill switch set to run, bank angle sensor satisfied), then you will have no power to any part of your EFI system (ECU, injectors, coils, fuel pump)


when you key on, if the FI lamp doesn't come on for a few seconds and then go out, it means your ECU hasn't powered up.


the coil on the engine stop relay is controlled by the kill switch and the bank angle sensor. not by the ECU. the kill switch is on the front side of the coil, and the bank angle sensor is on the back side of the coil. if either of these trips it will shut down the entire EFI system.

the black/white that comes from the engine stop relay to the ecu is the wire that powers the ecu. not a wire that the ecu uses to control the relay.



the fuel pump relay is simple enough, it gets its power from the engine stop relay on the black/white, which also feeds the front side of the coil. the solid brown powers the fuel pump when the relay is engaged. the relay is controlled by the brown/black wire that goes to the ECU. the ECU switches this wire to ground to turn the pump on.




so basically... it's impossible for the fuel relay to click if the engine stop relay is not on.

the engine stop relay is not controlled by the ECU



if you unplug the pump relay and short the black/white to the solid brown, the pump should run.

if it does you should be able to start the bike without issue.


if it doesn't you need to troubleshoot the power circuit for the pump.



if the pump works with the relay jumped. your next step is to force the brown/black on the pump relay to ground (this is what the ECU does)

with the key on, and kill switch set to run, simply take a piece of wire and connect the brown/black to chassis or battery negative. the pump should run. if it doesn't, swap the pump relay for the fan relay.


finally, check the connection at the ECU of the brown/black. if this is loose or making poor connection it will cause your pump to not function properly.

if the connection is good. take a multimeter and set it to continuity, unplug the fuel pump relay and place one lead on the brown/black in the connector, and the other on battery negative. then toggle the kill switch. when the kill switch is set to run you should get a tone for a few seconds (while the pump would be priming). if you don't, and you have no MIL, then the control contact in the ECU is bad.

keep in mind that any trouble fault in the fuel system will lock out the pump. so if you have an injector code or similar, the pump will not prime. this is part of the safety system of the motorcycle.




finally, if you want to force the pump to run you don't have to do any wiring, just bypass the relay (connect black/white to brown). power on the black/white is controlled by the bank angle sensor, so the pump will run constantly whenever the EFI system is powered. you'd be better off doing that than you would be to try to splice wires in your harness unnecessarily.
Thanks for your post. The engine stop reply is pulling in, it's the fuel stop that isn't. The ECU is getting power, it's just the fuel pump that isn't, I got the names reversed in the first post!. This interesting
keep in mind that any trouble fault in the fuel system will lock out the pump. so if you have an injector code or similar, the pump will not prime. this is part of the safety system of the motorcycle.
the MIL comes on and goes out though, so presumably it ECU isn't deliberately shutting of the fuel pump and the control contact in the ECU is bad?

Good point that i could jump the fuel stop relay too, that would be a tidy solution, although still think i'd prefer to repair the ECU.
 

·
Registered
2018 S1000RR Blue/White/Carbon 2015 R3 Red/White 2006 CBR600RR (blacked out)
Joined
·
37 Posts
the engine stop relay controls the entire EFI system. if it doesn't pull in (ie kill switch set to run, bank angle sensor satisfied), then you will have no power to any part of your EFI system (ECU, injectors, coils, fuel pump)

I covered this is my post so you're reiterating what ive already shown to be true

the coil on the engine stop relay is controlled by the kill switch and the bank angle sensor. not by the ECU. the kill switch is on the front side of the coil, and the bank angle sensor is on the back side of the coil. if either of these trips it will shut down the entire EFI system.

Again you're reiterating what I've already said to be true

the black/white that comes from the engine stop relay to the ecu is the wire that powers the ecu. not a wire that the ecu uses to control the relay.

This is incorrect. The ECU receives power at multiple locations, the engine cut relay is not the sole source of power for the ECU.
Red wire with white tracer entering the relay is battery positive and the black wire white tracer powers the fuel cut relay and supplies power to the rest of the FI system including supplying power the ECM at pin 16 as pointed out in my post, Have you followed the wiring diagram at all?


the fuel pump relay is simple enough, it gets its power from the engine stop relay on the black/white, which also feeds the front side of the coil. the solid brown powers the fuel pump when the relay is engaged. the relay is controlled by the brown/black wire that goes to the ECU. the ECU switches this wire to ground to turn the pump on.

You're contradicting yourself here. The fuel cut relay only when energized by the engine stop relay and grounded by the ECU does power finally get transmitted to the Fuel pump


the engine stop relay is not controlled by the ECU

Who said the engine stop relay is controlled by the ECU? The Fuel cut relay is controlled however by the ECU supplying ground from a brown wire black tracer and getting power from the engine stop relay once energized

if the pump works with the relay jumped. your next step is to force the brown/black on the pump relay to ground (this is what the ECU does)

He's already solved for this by grounding the wire from Pin 25 to the fuel cut relay which only gives power once all conditions are met for the Engine stop relay to energize. Once doing this he has found he has power to his pump

with the key on, and kill switch set to run, simply take a piece of wire and connect the brown/black to chassis or battery negative. the pump should run. if it doesn't, swap the pump relay for the fan relay.

This is unnecessary as he's already discovered he doesn't have a ground being commanded by the ECM to allow the Fuel cut relay to energize and transfer voltage supplied by the engine stop relay to the pump and for it to run
I feel as though you've reiterated all of what I said and then also contradicted yourself and made a messy attempt at explaining something that was already laid out and understood by the OP. What then was the purpose of your post? To try and prove someone wrong by jumbling things up and making it seem like you know better? I was very clear on what was going on and why and it only confirmed what the OP was already aware of. I provided a work around which was to give a constant ground to the fuel cut relay which you also tried to do. Just seems like your response was rooted more in trying to prove me wrong than help the OP.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
I feel as though you've reiterated all of what I said and then also contradicted yourself and made a messy attempt at explaining something that was already laid out and understood by the OP. What then was the purpose of your post? To try and prove someone wrong by jumbling things up and making it seem like you know better? I was very clear on what was going on and why and it only confirmed what the OP was already aware of. I provided a work around which was to give a constant ground to the fuel cut relay which you also tried to do. Just seems like your response was rooted more in trying to prove me wrong than help the OP.
I think maybe he got things reversed as I'd got relay names backwards, it's all the same conclusion though. The ECU will be in the post tomorrow, thanks to some help i'm on the way the getting it running again.
 

·
BOTY 2014 Winner
Joined
·
4,935 Posts
Thanks for your post. The engine stop reply is pulling in, it's the fuel stop that isn't. The ECU is getting power, it's just the fuel pump that isn't, I got the names reversed in the first post!. This interesting the MIL comes on and goes out though, so presumably it ECU isn't deliberately shutting of the fuel pump and the control contact in the ECU is bad?

Good point that i could jump the fuel stop relay too, that would be a tidy solution, although still think i'd prefer to repair the ECU.
if there were any failed loop checks on power up the MIL would remain solid.
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
Top