[ShubniggurathsBastard]

After a year long break, we're back!

My bike died while I was riding it. This is important: it started, seemed to be running normally, and died while I was turning around.

It had been sitting for a few weeks, and the ignition switch was acting weird--sticking, and not working correctly--but it started once I was able to get the ignition switch working. I got about 4 miles, was turning around, and it died while I had the clutch in (i.e., no load on the engine). I did note that it seemed to take a little longer to get up to operating temperature than I would have expected.

I have tested a new ignition switch, and the switch seems to work well. The dashboard lights up, and the fuel pump primes when I put the kill switch in the 'run' position. It sounds like it's cranking normally, but it doesn't start.

The battery is currently reading at 12.5V or so, which isn't surprising since I've tried starting it multiple times, and it was sitting for a while before that. I need to charge it. The battery is fairly new, less than two years old.

No fuses are blown.

I need to try jumping the kickstand sensor and the clutch sensor. The neutral safety switch was replaced less than a year ago, so that doesn't seem like a probable culprit. I need to check the ground for continuity, but I'm not seeing anything visually. I have not removed the tank yet to see if there are any obviously broken wires. I do have a CEL, but it's for a knock sensor, and I'm not using anything below 93 AKI, so that shouldn't be an issue.

I had a crank/no start last year that started as a rat chewing through wires, and ended up with very bad compression; that was solved with a new wiring loom, and lapping all the valves and seats. I don't think it should be a compression issue again; electrical seems the most likely, and I'm guessing that I don't have spark at all.

My next step--once I've verified that it's not a clutch position or kickstand sensor--seems to be checking to see if the coil packs are getting electricity. So, once I've checked to see if I'm getting power to the spark plugs, what should be my next attack? If I'm getting spark, I assume that I should check injectors and compression? It seems like it would be weird for an engine that had been running correctly to die suddenly if it wasn't electrical though.

 

[NewRedRider]

You're making this harder on yourself as well as everyone who tries to help you by blindly swapping parts, assuming before verifying proper function testing, and conflating issues that may not have anything to do with this problem. The new ignition "seems" to work. Does that mean you actually installed a new ignition or just bench tested one?

Stop and verify the basics first. Charge you battery. Clean your cables and the main ground wire on the (L) side of the frame. Once you are sure your battery is fully charged (+13.0v) THEN you can start testing the rest of the system.

Just as a maintenance step I would go through and lube (Yamalubzall) the ignition switch, run/stop switch, and all of your main PIN connectors. Check for corrosion as you go.

Do you have a wiring diagram or SM to reference?

 

[ShubniggurathsBastard]

First, to be clear, there was definitely something wrong with the old ignition. When I turned the switch, the dash didn't start, lights turn on, etc.; I had to turn turn the key multiple times to get it to work, and the whole thing was sticking. As far as, "seems to work", I mean that I removed the old one, and tested the new one on the bike; the lights turn on, the dash powers up, it works the way I'd expect an ignition switch to work. BUT I don't have it installed in the triple tree yet; it's just hanging loose at the moment.

Do you have a wiring diagram or SM to reference?

Yes, I have the '07-'12 service manual.

Yes, I know that I need to charge the battery, and replace if I can't get it up to spec.

go through and lube (Yamalubzall) the ignition switch, run/stop switch

I already know that I need to clean and lube the left side switch; turn signals and high beams are not consistently working. Is it save to use dielectric grease on all electric connectors? I've never seen it used anywhere aside from switch housings.

 

[NewRedRider]

Yes, dielectric grease is fine for the cables but hard to apply for the PIN connectors. If you use silicone spray make SURE it is plastic safe.

Since you have a wiring diagram, start tracing out your flow of voltage going into and out of the ignition switch. Since you've already replaced it you need to eliminate the new ignition as the cause of the problem and ensure it is 100% functional and installed correctly. Once you do that and get a battery that is charged, then we can start actual troubleshooting.

 

[dannoxyz]

Did you measure FI fuse?
Measure power coming out of kill switch?

Starter circuit and EFI system are on completely different independent circuits. EFI system can be knackered and bike will still crank completely fine. For example, you can remove ECU, all injectors, coils, etc. and bike will still crank, just engine won't run.

I discovered this by accident one time at filling station, bike wouldn't start afterwards. Damn bastards gave me bunk tank of petrol!!! Crank and crank for minutes at time until battery was dead, nope... Turned out my kill-switch was off, ahahahhahah!!!!

 

[NewRedRider]

Did you measure FI fuse?
Measure power coming out of kill switch?

Starter circuit and EFI system are on completely different independent circuits. EFI system can be knackered and bike will still crank completely fine. For example, you can remove ECU, all injectors, coils, etc. and bike will still crank, just engine won't run.

I discovered this by accident one time at filling station, bike wouldn't start afterwards. Damn bastards gave me bunk tank of petrol!!! Crank and crank for minutes at time until battery was dead, nope... Turned out my kill-switch was off, ahahahhahah!!!!

Yet another reason why I don't normally use my kill switch. Leaving the bike in gear and using the kickstand to kill the bike is kinda like another level of security when you combine it with GP shift. One time I confused the dyno operator for a few seconds before he asked, "Is this thing GP shift?". "Oh yeah, sorry about that."

 

[ShubniggurathsBastard]

Did you measure FI fuse?
Measure power coming out of kill switch?

Starter circuit and EFI system are on completely different independent circuits. EFI system can be knackered and bike will still crank completely fine. For example, you can remove ECU, all injectors, coils, etc. and bike will still crank, just engine won't run.

I discovered this by accident one time at filling station, bike wouldn't start afterwards. Damn bastards gave me bunk tank of petrol!!! Crank and crank for minutes at time until battery was dead, nope... Turned out my kill-switch was off, ahahahhahah!!!!

First: I charged the battery, and it's holding at 13v. I checked the new ignition switch--the module that the key goes into--and I've got continuity when it's on, and no continuity when it's off (plus I can crank when it's on), so that's good.

I'm waiting until I have daylight to keep working, because I have a feral cat that I feed on my back porch (where my bike is currently parked; I don't have a garage) after dark, and I'm trying to avoid scaring him away. So that kinda limits me to working on weekends, or if I manage to get home from work before dark.

With that out of the way, I think that the obvious thing I've missed--because I'm a gosh darned idjit--is that I need to check the MIL. I had been getting code 25, which is a faulty knock sensor/circuit, but I didn't think to see if I had a new and improved DTC.

Are there fuses hidden anywhere other than in the fuse box just behind the battery? All of the fuses in the box look good.

 

[dannoxyz]

Follow manual's procedure for code 25 which is "error with knock-sensor circuit" which consists of:

• 5v reference power wire
• ground wire
• knock sensor
• knock sensor output signal wire

Each one needs to be measured and tested. Corroded connector terminals are most common. Sensor rarely goes bad, you can replace it 10x and error will still be there.


There's 2 fuses you missed. FI fuse which powers entire EFI system and 30-amp main fuse. Easiest way to determine if they're good is to measure voltage at destination.

This is 5-minute fix with multimeter and tests above. Continuity at kill-switch is no good if you don't have power going into it at all. Thus, no power going to ECU

 

[ShubniggurathsBastard]

There's 2 fuses you missed. FI fuse which powers entire EFI system and 30-amp main fuse. Easiest way to determine if they're good is to measure voltage at destination.

Okay, where are they? I'm reading through all the electrical sections in the '07-'12 manual, and I'm not seeing a diagram showing where they are on the bike. If the FI fuse is blown, I'll still need to figure out why it blew.

When you say measure voltage at the destination, what do you mean?

This is 5-minute fix with multimeter and tests above. Continuity at kill-switch is no good if you don't have power going into it at all. Thus, no power going to ECU

It's not continuity at the kill switch, continuity at the ignition switch. There's at least some power going to the kill switch, because when I turn the kill switch to the run position, the fuel pump primes.

At the moment, I'm looking at page 6-7 in the '07-'08 service manual, and it says that for crank no start, with no DTC and MIL blinking, that I should crank for 10 seconds, check the DTC, and then execute troubleshooting, along with inspection of the fuel supply system. All the diagnostic trouble codes that would cause a no-start condition seem to be centered around fuel except the cam position sensor, and the crank position sensor. So. Hmmm.

I'll check the diagnostic codes, and report back as soon as I can. No sense in borrowing trouble thinking of worst-case-scenarios until I've check the MIL.

 

[NewRedRider]

The main fuses are under the seat right next to the battery. Yellow 20 amp (FI) and red 30 amp (Starter).

Have you tried to start it on some starter fluid to see if it fires up? I'm wonder if some of these knock sensor DTC's are from a dirty/clogged fuel system running the engine too lean.

Do check your PIN connectors and your main ground wire on the left side of the frame. Corrosion and vibration may have caused a fault.

 

[dannoxyz]

When you say measure voltage at the destination, what do you mean?

Follow path of electricity flow like water down a river. It starts somewhere, then flows off in branches here and there. Somewhere, it might hit a dam and stop flowing.

START - battery
DESTINATION - fuel-pump, ECU, injectors, ignition-coils, idle-valve, exhaust-valve, etc.

TESTS - measure voltage at each of these components to make sure they can operate. So you measure for power at injectors, ignition-coils, etc. Either one of them not getting power from broken wire, corroded connectors will prevent bike from starting.

You can rule out fuel-pump because you can hear it. BUT... does that mean petrol is actually making it into cylinders? Again, petrol-flow is just like water and river:

• Is fuel flowing out of tank? How can you test verify this?
• Is fuel flowing past fuel-filtre? Clogged filtres are not uncommon and is source of lots of issues
• Is fuel flowing out of pump when it's running? How can you test and verify this?
• Is fuel flowing into fuel-rail? How would you know yes or no?
• Is fuel flowing out of injectors? Dirty and clogged injectors are a thing.

How do you know if coils are sparking? How would you test and verify this?

 

[ShubniggurathsBastard]

The main fuses are under the seat right next to the battery. Yellow 20 amp (FI) and red 30 amp (Starter).

Have you tried to start it on some starter fluid to see if it fires up? I'm wonder if some of these knock sensor DTC's are from a dirty/clogged fuel system running the engine too lean.

First: I did check the DTCs, and there's nothing new; still just the knock sensor circuit. The knock sensor circuit has been an issue since the wiring harness was replaced last year (rodents + wires = bad); the knock sensor circuit warning popped up as soon as I started it up after lapping the valves and seats. It could be a fault with the replacement harness, or I could have damaged the sensor itself in some way. I suppose that, since I had the whole thing apart, the injectors could have gotten clogged while they weren't installed.

Follow path of electricity flow like water down a river. It starts somewhere, then flows off in branches here and there. Somewhere, it might hit a dam and stop flowing.

START - battery
DESTINATION - fuel-pump, ECU, injectors, ignition-coils, idle-valve, exhaust-valve, etc.

TESTS - measure voltage at each of these components to make sure they can operate. So you measure for power at injectors, ignition-coils, etc. Either one of them not getting power from broken wire, corroded connectors will prevent bike from starting.

You can rule out fuel-pump because you can hear it. BUT... does that mean petrol is actually making it into cylinders? Again, petrol-flow is just like water and river:

• Is fuel flowing out of tank? How can you test verify this?
• Is fuel flowing past fuel-filtre? Clogged filtres are not uncommon and is source of lots of issues
• Is fuel flowing out of pump when it's running? How can you test and verify this?
• Is fuel flowing into fuel-rail? How would you know yes or no?
• Is fuel flowing out of injectors? Dirty and clogged injectors are a thing.

How do you know if coils are sparking? How would you test and verify this?

I'm currently watching videos on testing coils; I can readily test for voltage going to the coils, and if there's no voltage to the coils in the first place, then I have to figure out why the EFI system is apparently working, and the spark isn't.

There's no filter on this year, just a strainer (per the 2006-2007 service manual, page 6-48).

I'm not getting any codes that indicate issues with injector circuits; I'd been assuming that bad injectors would give me an injector error, but I'm not sure that's the case.

I truly, deeply hate electrical problems, they make me feel so incompetent. Hopefully it's warm enough this weekend to work outside for more than a few minutes without my fingers going numb.

 

[dannoxyz]

Electrical issues are difficult because as humans, we can't see electrons flowing in wires. It's simpler to imagine it being like water-flow which is easier for most people to understand. You have a river and water flows from high to low. It branches off at some points. Some flows to your local water treatment-plant. Then pump sends it to your house and it branches off to your garden hose, and bathroom and kitchen sinks.

You can test each junction and see if water's flowing at that point. If garden-hose isn't flowing, you disconnect it from tap on wall. Then turn on tap and it flows, you can conclude that clog is inside garden hose. Same thing with electrical issues. You measure for power at various junctions. Where it doesn't flow indicates problem upstream somewhere.

 

[_Bus1_]

Electrical issues are difficult because as humans, we can't see electrons flowing in wires. It's simpler to see imagine it being like water-flow which is easier for most people to understand. You have a river and water flows from high to low. It branches off at some points. Some flows to your local river treatment-plant. Then pump sends it to your hose and it branches off to your garden hose, and bathroom and kitchen sinks.

You can test each junction and see if water's flowing at that point. If garden-hose isn't flowing and you disconnect it from tap on wall. Then turn on tap and it flows, you can conclude that clog is inside garden hose. Same thing with electrical issues. You measure for power at various junctions. Where it doesn't flow indicates problem upstream somewhere.

Well said!!

 

[NewRedRider]

the knock sensor circuit warning popped up as soon as I started it up after lapping the valves and seats.

In my mind there's your smoking gun right there. By the way you worded this it sounds like you replaced the harness and then the code came up after the valve adjustment. Is that correct? Did you run the bike with the new wiring harness without it throwing a code?

Just brainstorming here but If you changed the shims in cylinder "x" and cylinder "x" is now showing signs of predetonation, it leads me to believe you may have too much compression in that cylinder. (I.e. wrong shim spacing)

Did you change any shims during the valve adjustment?

There's no filter on this year, just a strainer (per the 2006-2007 service manual, page 6-48).

Honda doesn't list a separate filter because the fuel filter for the 03-06 models are inside the sealed housing and cannot be serviced or changed. Stupid huh.

'm not getting any codes that indicate issues with injector circuits; I'd been assuming that bad injectors would give me an injector error, but I'm not sure that's the case.

The ECU cannot tell if the injector is physically clogged. It can only see the signal loop when it applies the ground.

 

[_Bus1_]

First: I did check the DTCs, and there's nothing new; still just the knock sensor circuit. The knock sensor circuit has been an issue since the wiring harness was replaced last year (rodents + wires = bad); the knock sensor circuit warning popped up as soon as I started it up after lapping the valves and seats. It could be a fault with the replacement harness, or I could have damaged the sensor itself in some way. I suppose that, since I had the whole thing apart, the injectors could have gotten clogged while they weren't installed.




I'm currently watching videos on testing coils; I can readily test for voltage going to the coils, and if there's no voltage to the coils in the first place, then I have to figure out why the EFI system is apparently working, and the spark isn't.

There's no filter on this year, just a strainer (per the 2006-2007 service manual, page 6-48).

I'm not getting any codes that indicate issues with injector circuits; I'd been assuming that bad injectors would give me an injector error, but I'm not sure that's the case.

I truly, deeply hate electrical problems, they make me feel so incompetent. Hopefully it's warm enough this weekend to work outside for more than a few minutes without my fingers going numb.

Not sure how I missed this, but as far as harness replacement was this full harness..what year is it out of? And what year is your bike? 07-08 pin-out for knock sensor is different than 09-12.

Also @NewRedRider is referencing valve lash and is correct in everything he said, but you said "lapping the valves and seats". If you did actually lap the valves in, it is possible (in theory) that too much material was taken away causing an actual "knock" that the sensor is picking up, assuming the harness is correct for your bike.

 

[NewRedRider]

Good catch @_Bus1_ !

When I read that I totally had valve lash in my head and missed that he said lapping.

@ShubniggurathsBastard - Run a compression test and see what the cylinders are running now.

 

[ShubniggurathsBastard]

Okay, for starters: I checked the 30A starter fuse, and it's visually good. Which makes sense, since I don't think I'd get any cranking if the starter fuse was blown. I still don't see the 20A FI fuse, which tells me I'm short-bus "special". I checked the ground (battery to starter/engine), and I've got continuity. I did a quick visual inspection as I was removing the tank, and--with the airbox still on--I don't see any obviously damaged wires, nor do I see any pinched fuel/vacuum lines. I have not yet removed the fuel pump to double check the screen.

In my mind there's your smoking gun right there. By the way you worded this it sounds like you replaced the harness and then the code came up after the valve adjustment. Is that correct? Did you run the bike with the new wiring harness without it throwing a code?


Just brainstorming here but If you changed the shims in cylinder "x" and cylinder "x" is now showing signs of predetonation, it leads me to believe you may have too much compression in that cylinder. (I.e. wrong shim spacing)


Did you change any shims during the valve adjustment?

Honda doesn't list a separate filter because the fuel filter for the 03-06 models are inside the sealed housing and cannot be serviced or changed. Stupid huh.


The ECU cannot tell if the injector is physically clogged. It can only see the signal loop when it applies the ground.

tl;dr - The bike was never started after the wiring harness was initially installed.

A shop replaced the wiring harness, but the crank, no start condition persisted. They checked compression and found that all cylinders were running was below spec. I paid for the electrical work, did the leak down testing myself, and determined that everything was from the valves. After lapping the valves, I was running >90% across all cylinders. I did check valve clearances, and I think that after lapping there were3 (?) that needed to be re-shimmed. I verified clearance after reinstalling the cam shafts and torquing all bolts to spec. After the valves were lapped and I had compression, the bike started up immediately.

I'm not hearing any signs of pre-ignition. That's not proof that it's not happening though

Not sure how I missed this, but as far as harness replacement was this full harness..what year is it out of? And what year is your bike? 07-08 pin-out for knock sensor is different than 09-12.

Also @NewRedRider is referencing valve lash and is correct in everything he said, but you said "lapping the valves and seats". If you did actually lap the valves in, it is possible (in theory) that too much material was taken away causing an actual "knock" that the sensor is picking up, assuming the harness is correct for your bike.

...I was not aware of that. I had thought that '07-'12 had no significant changes. I'll have to check my eBay purchase history to see what year the harness was, because that could be doing it. (Yes, I bought one off a crashed bike, because $1000 for a new main harness was definitely more than I had.)

 

[ShubniggurathsBastard]

I checked the listing for the wiring harness; it just says '07-'12, so short of trying to find the part number on the harness itself, I have no good way of knowing.

 

[_Bus1_]

I checked the listing for the wiring harness; it just says '07-'12, so short of trying to find the part number on the harness itself, I have no good way of knowing.

Hmm, that's annoying it was listed that way, but I guess its not that well known of a wiring change through the years but I digress lol.

Any way
This is the 07-08 diagram from my service manual.

And this is the 09-12 non ABS (knock sensor pin out is still the same for ABS and non ABS though)

Basically, for 07-08 the black/yellow wire from knock sensor should go to ECU plug-B(grey) pin-5 and for 09-12 it is plug-B pin-23. Check your pin-out and adjust accordingly if needed. Hopefully this will at least solve the knock sensor code for you. I'm not sure if this code would actually cause the bike not to start all together to keep from damaging the bike BUT it is possible. I hope this helps though.