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I personally wouldn't have a problem with the body scanners or a non invasive search etc. I can, however, understand why others would.

If you're going to be given a non invasive search then it will involve your groin area being touched, in order to ensure that you don't have anything stuffed in your underwear. I have had to carry out many searches of this nature, on some less than desirable people. It's no more fun for the person doing the search than it is for the person who is subject to it.

Having said that, you would need to have some grounds for suspicion that any person being searched was acting suspiciously, that they may have drugs, stolen property, weapons etc. This, on the face of it, seems fine but what some people consider reasonable grounds for a search is very different to what others would consider reasonable. In this case, it would be easy for the TSA to say that the guy was acting suspiciously, looked nervous etc. It's all very, very subjective.

One thing is for sure though. People should be informed, or be able to find out, what they will be subject to when going through airport security so that they can make an informed decision on whether they consent to the different measures. I haven't been through an airport in over a year but, to be honest, I would expect that I may be subject to a non invasive search and wouldn't be surprised if I was asked to go through a body scanner. If I had a problem with this then I would travel by alternative means.

This debate will probably be redundant in a couple of years time. I can see body scanners being a permanent feature in every airport in the very near future.
 

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The reality is that all this is, is smoke and mirrors... Security theater. People don't like the fact that there's absolutely NOTHING the government can do that will guarantee safety. Instead people that possess zero critical thinking ability prefer to cling to the ridiculous notion that these measures are somehow effective. If that was the case, you could kinda sorta make a case for this BS. How many terrorists have been caught by the TSA again? They couldn't even stop the underwear bomber after being given a heads up from the kids own father.

At the end of the day, if someone has the intelligence, the willpower and you're in the wrong spot at the wrong time... you're going to die. If someone is willing to die for their cause, do you think they are going to be afraid of those scanners or a thorough pat down? Both of those methods of "securing" airplanes can be easily circumvented via surgical implants or simply shoving a brick of C4 up your ass/vag. Do you think someone willing to die would be deterred by that inconvenience?

People need to stop being pansies and come to the realization that living in a free society comes with some downsides. Like, drunk a**holes being able to get behind the wheel and run you off the road... like bank robbers robbing a bank and you getting shot in the process... or terrorists taking over a plane. The only thing that needed to be done to prevent another 9/11 is hardening the aircraft doors... and train a few thousand bomb sniffing dog teams.

The sheeple need to learn statistics, and the fact that they are MANY times more likely to die in a fiery car crash while on the way to catch their plane then they ever will be via air travel itself.

Realistically, if terrorists really wanted to terrorize people... why would they even bother with airports at this point? All they have to do is set off a few bombs at a handful of shopping malls all over the country during holidays and watch the retail sector/economy come to a grinding halt.

Terrorists are winning this game by a LONG shot.
 

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The reality is that all this is, is smoke and mirrors... Security theater. People don't like the fact that there's absolutely NOTHING the government can do that will guarantee safety. Instead people that possess zero critical thinking ability prefer to cling to the ridiculous notion that these measures are somehow effective. If that was the case, you could kinda sorta make a case for this BS. How many terrorists have been caught by the TSA again? They couldn't even stop the underwear bomber after being given a heads up from the kids own father.

At the end of the day, if someone has the intelligence, the willpower and you're in the wrong spot at the wrong time... you're going to die. If someone is willing to die for their cause, do you think they are going to be afraid of those scanners or a thorough pat down? Both of those methods of "securing" airplanes can be easily circumvented via surgical implants or simply shoving a brick of C4 up your ass/vag. Do you think someone willing to die would be deterred by that inconvenience?

People need to stop being pansies and come to the realization that living in a free society comes with some downsides. Like, drunk a**holes being able to get behind the wheel and run you off the road... like bank robbers robbing a bank and you getting shot in the process... or terrorists taking over a plane. The only thing that needed to be done to prevent another 9/11 is hardening the aircraft doors... and train a few thousand bomb sniffing dog teams.

The sheeple need to learn statistics, and the fact that they are MANY times more likely to die in a fiery car crash while on the way to catch their plane then they ever will be via air travel itself.

Realistically, if terrorists really wanted to terrorize people... why would they even bother with airports at this point? All they have to do is set off a few bombs at a handful of shopping malls all over the country during holidays and watch the retail sector/economy come to a grinding halt.

Terrorists are winning this game by a LONG shot.
The real answer to that, you will never know, if you knew, then people in the united states would not fly


I was a Screener before 9/11 when the FAA failed to enforce strong enough rules before bad things happened, and i was a supervisor for the tsa for a few years before i got tired of "being the bad guy"

i cant tell you what i do know, but if you did know it, i can promise you would think twice about getting on a plane.



And you are right, there is no 100% way to stop these types of things happening, but does that mean we shouldn't even try?
 

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You know what I hate? The inconsistency. I leave Providence and have to put my briefcase in a bin. I leave Baltimore and the TSA guy (who looks like a criminal) tells me to take the briefcase out of the bin and put the bin on the table. I put it on the metal "thing" behind me and he says thats not a table, thats a shelf. They were both attached to eachother and looked like tables with shelf underneath. Basically I was tyring to put the bin back to where I got it. I'll tell you if I didn't want to miss my flight or be embarassed by some power hungry jerk I would have asked for his forgiveness in that I don't know the proper TSA lingo for TSA property. Then when I put the bin where he wanted me to, he told me to let the ladies go first.

Another time I went through a full body scanner and had 2 quarters in my back pocket. That resulted in a pat down. God forbid you take the quarters out and show them. Even if policy isn't to go back in the scanner, a wand would have worked fine.

Without 9/11 these TSA guys would be out of work or doing low level security work like patrolling company parking lots keeping people similar to them out.
 

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The real answer to that, you will never know, if you knew, then people in the united states would not fly

i cant tell you what i do know, but if you did know it, i can promise you would think twice about getting on a plane.
Yawn, sorry I ain't buying that crap. Government wets it's pants every time it gets the opportunity to foil some terrorist plot and it's all over CNN/FOX/CNBC for weeks. Government loves leaking this stuff to the public to show how awesome of a job they are doing.

The only thing that makes me think twice about getting on a plane is all the irrational BS that has gone on in the past decade. Smoke and mirrors. I don't have irrational fears of dying on a plane. I realize that I can just a easily be hit by a drunk or some old lady that failed her eye exam while crossing the street.

And you are right, there is no 100% way to stop these types of things happening, but does that mean we shouldn't even try?
No, you should try, things that are proven to be effective. Putting 99.9999% of the flying public through a big waste of time to catch 0.0001% of the misfits is extremely counter productive. That might sound callous, but when anyone with the a moderate intelligence and sufficient dedication can circumvent the checks/balances with ease it's pointless. Confiscating peoples' 6oz shampoo but letting them bring on 10x 3.2oz shampoos does NOTHING but annoy people and perpetrate this charade.

Practices should be routed in REAL security practices/principals not this reactionary garbage. TSA has not caught a single terrorist, and it was only due to the incompetence of the recent terrorists that nothing more serious happened. There are many instances of TSA red teams being able to circumvent the BS all the time and bring knives/weapons/explosives on the plane.

You get what you pay for... You hire rent-a-cops to man security, that's exactly what you get. A bunch of people that know very little about real security.
 
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Yawn, sorry I ain't buying that crap. Government wets it's pants every time it gets the opportunity to foil some terrorist plot and it's all over CNN/FOX/CNBC for weeks. Government loves leaking this stuff to the public to show how awesome of a job they are doing.
That's because our government are the real terrorists. They get their power, make their bills, and get our support because they lead us by fear. Tell us that if we don't do this or that, or let them to this or that, we'll be attacked and so on.
 

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You get what you pay for... You hire rent-a-cops to man security, that's exactly what you get. A bunch of people that know very little about real security.

Exactly.

Also I'll tell you where the biggest flaw is IMHO. The people working at airport restaurants that are between security screening and the gates. They could easily hand a knife or some other weapon to an associate who will board a plane.
 

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No, you should try, things that are proven to be effective. Putting 99.9999% of the flying public through a big waste of time to catch 0.0001% of the misfits is extremely counter productive. That might sound callous, but when anyone with the a moderate intelligence and sufficient dedication can circumvent the checks/balances with ease it's pointless. Confiscating peoples' 6oz shampoo but letting them bring on 10x 3.2oz shampoos does NOTHING but annoy people and perpetrate this charade.

Practices should be routed in REAL security practices/principals not this reactionary garbage. TSA has not caught a single terrorist, and it was only due to the incompetence of the recent terrorists that nothing more serious happened. There are many instances of TSA red teams being able to circumvent the BS all the time and bring knives/weapons/explosives on the plane.

You get what you pay for... You hire rent-a-cops to man security, that's exactly what you get. A bunch of people that know very little about real security.
i will say, belive what you want

but let me ask you, what is proven to work?

you want more invasive?

We could go the route of places like isreal, and have armed guards with semi auto rifles who are quick to pull them up and say you looked at me funny, why....

and its noy always the government that leaks info, those news stations have scanners, and are MORE than eager to leak info for the government

i KNOW terrorists have been caught, but you continue to believe what you want if it makes you happy.

think about it

if the government came out and said we found 2 guys with c4 rolled in a layer in their jackets attempting to board an american airlines flight

how fast do you thing a huge portion of flight just STOPS



now, you say these 'red' teams get through with fake items, yes, yes they do

Have you ever seen an xray image and actually tried to study it...

your smart remark tells me no, bitching about the shampoo bottles

hint: a nice thick creamy conditioner, has the same look and consistency on the xray monitor as c4.

i love how easy it is to armchair quarter back.
 

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Yea, tenjin... I'm 100% clueless. TSA is a model organization. Nothing they do is completely and utterly pointless. My bad.

There are many things that are more effective, but I really don't feel like wasting my time. We have diametrically opposed points of view, and neither one of us is going to budge so I'd rather save my breath.

How much longer before this McCarthyism 2.0 is over? Hopefully things can go back to "normal" a few years after Iran gets bombed...
 

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Yea, tenjin... I'm 100% clueless. TSA is a model organization. Nothing they do is completely and utterly pointless. My bad.

There are many things that are more effective, but I really don't feel like wasting my time. We have diametrically opposed points of view, and neither one of us is going to budge so I'd rather save my breath.

How much longer before this McCarthyism 2.0 is over? Hopefully things can go back to "normal" a few years after Iran gets bombed...
see thats the thing i hate about anti tsa people

they have 2 statements negative about tsa
1) Their methods are ineffective
2) Nothing will prevent the most determined

but NO ONE has a better answer for 1, or will give one, why is this?

and we as motorcyclists know about #2 as much as any one else.

I am not saying TSA is going to stop every possible attack, obviously they havnt, and there are always going to be holes

Especially when the traveling public hates the methods used to stop an attack


just answer this:

What is sitting to the left, of my left hand ... you have the same initial view that a tsa screener has of whats "behind the shroud" pretend your screen is my jacket, and you need to ID whats in there. How do you do it?
 

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see thats the thing i hate about anti tsa people

they have 2 statements negative about tsa
1) Their methods are ineffective
2) Nothing will prevent the most determined

but NO ONE has a better answer for 1, or will give one, why is this?
The truth of the matter is, that if you believe in the constitution and you value living in a free and open society... It is theoretically and physically impossible to make it anything but relatively secure (i.e. pre 9/11). There will always be weaknesses. Realistically, how hard would it be to find one crooked $13/h screener (or anyone working behind the curtain) to help you perpetrate your crime? Or perhaps you kidnap his/her family members and tell them that they need to do X or they never see them again.

It's all about diminishing returns, do you keep throwing billions of dollars and destroying an extremely valuable industry in the process of trying to deter a handful of thugs? When the reality is, that those very people you are trying to deter can still usurp these security measures with relative ease.

So what you're doing is annoying 99.9999% of the flying public (some put up with it because they think it makes them safer) to catch 0.0001%. And you have ZERO guarantee that all the BS that everyone is being put through is going to lead to any quantifiable increased safety.

The underwear bomber purchased a one-way ticket, using cash... He didn't check-in any luggage for a one-way international flight. Was outed by his father to the consulate as being "radicalized" in Yemen and yet he STILL didn't raise any flags. Seriously, wake up. You didn't need to feel up that guys crotch to know something suspicious was going on.

These machines/procedures aren't going to do sh*t when someone packs a brick of C4 up their ass or has one surgically implanted and opts for the porno scan and sails right through security. When someone finally succeeds at that what's the next technological step? Full blown PET/CT/MRI scans for everyone? Sounds like freedom to me.

just answer this:

What is sitting to the left, of my left hand ... you have the same initial view that a tsa screener has of whats "behind the shroud" pretend your screen is my jacket, and you need to ID whats in there. How do you do it?
I'm not interested in riddles or imaginary what if games. If someone is smart enough and determined enough, they will succeed regardless of what the rent-a-cops do. And once they've succeeded in making airport travel hell (as they pretty much already have) they'll just move on to softer targets that are 1000x easier to penetrate, and could potentially have a much larger psychological and economical impact... Think shopping malls, sporting events, concerts... etc.

How do we solve that problem? Do we barcode everyone so that we can track everyone's every move and analyze the sh*t out of it to try and discern "terrorist" activities?

At which point are you going to stop asking the government to hold your hand as you cross the street? At what point are you going to say enough is enough... this is EXACTLY what the terrorists want us to be doing. They are all sitting there watching CNN from their caves and they are laughing at at us. They are watching the USA and everything it stands for being systematically ripped to shreds because people are scared. You guys are inflicting more damage to yourselves and your economy than the terrorists could have ever dreamed.

The terrorists know they can't win a conventional war. All they have to do is keep coming up with crack pot ideas and the perpetual fear machine (media) goes back into full action blowing everything out of proportion and scaring everyone.
 

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That's because our government are the real terrorists. They get their power, make their bills, and get our support because they lead us by fear. Tell us that if we don't do this or that, or let them to this or that, we'll be attacked and so on.


BAM!

10 mother f*ckin char!
 

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We are all in for a horrible future. The moment we start giving up a few rights to "protect" us, is the moment we lose our freedom.

Eventually we will have signed ourselves over to the government, receiving their "protection" from a made up enemy* in return.



*I say made up for a few reasons. One is because i believe there is more to 9/11 then we are being told. I do realise the USA does have enemys. Another is like Demented said, we will be attacked if we dont let the government do something.
 
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We are all in for a horrible future. The moment we start giving up a few rights to "protect" us, is the moment we lose our freedom.

Eventually we will have signed ourselves over to the government, receiving their "protection" from a made up enemy* in return.



*I say made up for a few reasons. One is because i believe there is more to 9/11 then we are being told. I do realise the USA does have enemys. Another is like Demented said, we will be attacked if we dont let the government do something.
We'll be attacked either way. Our government is so worried about foreign terrorists, they overlook the simple fact that one person could cause so much hell from within our own country.

Our government will just tell us that we need to give up our freedoms and allow them to do what they want to do or we'll all die from a terrorist attack.
 
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