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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I had a fall today and after getting back on the bike I was over-paranoid about the bike possibly having any problems. When I hopped back on I was running through the gears makingnsure the shift pedal was ok. I noticed at low rpms I was able to upshift AND downshift without the clutch lever. Is this normal or something I should have checked?
 

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yes you can shift without using clutch, hurts nothing
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
That's upshifting, which I have read about, but is it normal to be able to downshift at the low rpms as well?
 

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Yes, but if your going to continue to shift without the clutch, I recommend only doing it while upshifting, mainly after 1st gear because it can get caught in neutral. Use the clutch to downshift so you can engine rev and match rpm's correctly.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
yeah, I didn't mean to do it while downshifting. After I wrecked, I picked it up and just wanted to make sure everything was ok and had my foot atop the pedal by accident when cruising in either 3rd or 4th at maybe 3k rpms and it downshifted. I was immediately worried as I didn't know if that was normal behavior.

Def not something I will continue to do, but didn't know if that should throw up a red flag or not.
 

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recommand for up shift use as downshift there will be engine braking that might throw u out when u down shift from a high speed.

I am still learning the correct way of up shift as sometime i do get throw out abit when my timing is not right
 

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recommand for up shift use as downshift there will be engine braking that might throw u out when u down shift from a high speed.

I am still learning the correct way of up shift as sometime i do get throw out abit when my timing is not right

very easy to accidentally downshift with gp style your first time out on it, haha, it will standyou up and spit you off the track.. not that i did that or anything... :ciao: LoL.

op, like posted, dont no clutch DS, IMO not a good idea, also i pretty much use my clutch all the time, cause its there to take the load off your transmission while your shifting.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Yeah, I think I did it only a total of 4 times to see if the "issue" was repeatable, but now that I know it can happen at low RPMs, I won't do it anymore.

I just hope I didn't mess anything up during that time. The times that it did happen, I was at constant low revs and not accelerating.

I just really hope I didn't mess anything up doing that.
 

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i used to upshift often without the clutch but, I kept hearing mixed debate on whether you should or should not so I started using the clutch again
 

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i shift w/o using clutch all the time, up and down. been doing it for years w/ my cars, and never had issues. Have yet to have issues w/ the bike. I blip the throttle barely right b4 i downshift, works pretty well. I rarely go into first like that tho, gets a lil tricky then, same w/ neutral.
 

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i used to upshift often without the clutch but, I kept hearing mixed debate on whether you should or should not so I started using the clutch again
One way isn't inherently better than the other, for for the sake of longevity. All manual transmissions are basically the same in cars truck and motorcycles, with a main shaft and cluster gears. the only difference i how the shifter is actuated and how the gears engage. Motorcycle transmissions don't have syncros like the vast majority of car transmissions. Heavy trucks of the early days used dog engagement transmissions which are very similar to our transmissions. Dog engagement is usually reserved for higher HP/RPM cars (after 7000 or so RPM syncros don't work so well at matching speeds in the transmission so you can't shift as fast) and almost always the track. This is one reason there is no syncros in our transmission, the other is that a shift pattern would be a PITA, so a sequential shifter is uses, our happens to be loaded with a strong detent, where if you push it slow it will move quite a bit before the shifter snaps to the next gear. This keeps you from accidentally shifting because of the spring pressure as well as the amount of movement needed to get to the next gear, as well as keep shift speed under control (you can't change how fast the trans shifts by varying your movement of the shifter) so that its one less thing to design the trans around.

This is where the dogs come into play; when you are cruising around,when shifting without the clutch, you have instant feedback about how your speeds were matched inside the transmission with your timing by how much the bike lurches. If you did it smoothly, where you didn't really feel anything, you just noticed a drop in revs. You will notice that there was no transmission noise (THWACK!) during a smooth clutchless upshift. With no jolt and no thawack, your transmission dogs hardly had any loading at all when they engaged.

With the clutch, it adds another step to "shift" smoothly. I prefer to think of strictly using the shifter for shifting, if using the clutch you are "changing gears" and one of the operations is shifting. Anyway to be smooth, you are shifting the transmission early so that it is all the same speed wit the rear tire so you don't have the quick acceleration or deceleration when you let out the clutch. If it was smooth, then the gears were changed early and that is where the thwack comes from, the engine is still spinning a little faster than the transmission and they instantly match speeds with the dogs.

Now to the detent in the shifter, this was done so that a weak shift still send the next gears snapping together during clutchless upshifts while racing around at high throttle/RPM. This is the essence of this transmission, racing. Its a track refugee, and it was built to go as fast as possible, and that means not using a clutch on upshifts. Now, doing so is way rougher on the transmission than either using the clutch while cruising around. Frankly I feel that is is irrelevant, but also that a good clutchless shift is easier on the dogs in the long run (tens of thousands of miles, versus a race season or two) but again, the trans is made for much more serious abuse that debating the use of the clutch in regards to hurting the transmission is kind of a moot point. If you want to baby your transmission, than use your clutch on upshifts when you are using 100% throttle, then you at least have the engine rotating mass separated from the transmission, and it only has to deal with the mass inside the trans case when instantly matching rotational velocities. Again, this is what the bike was made for, so doing it once in a while will have no effect on longevity, doing it constantly, then you end up on the race bike maintenance schedule, because you are racing around everywhere :)
 

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i downshift sometimes without the clutch but i never try to force it. i just put some pressure on the shifter as the rpm's come down until it falls in
 

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no clutch

After reading "Total Control" by Lee Parks ( a must read btw) For everyday in town riding I do not use the clutch on the upshifts, just back off the throttle a hair and click it goes. I do use the clutch on full throttle rips and down shifting though.

Cheers, Jim
 
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