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Discussion Starter · #41 · (Edited)
Sounds like I graduated from stupid to "uninteresting".
I maintain that the knee is a reference point and it is useful to have a ball park number in terms of tire max lean angle. Of course there is no precise formula, but when you're leaning in a corner how do you know you have more or less reached the end of the tire? Looking at the horizon? Waiting to see if the tire is losing "some" grip and then decide?

There is another benefit of using the elbow as the new reference point, when tire allows. That way it's easier to focus on putting down the upper body, which is where we carry most of the weight. It's common to see beginner/intermediate riders with their butt all the way down and the helmet at the top of the windshield ala Doohan, aka the crossover position. But why am I wasting my time, it seems nobody on 600rr.net is interested in pompous riding discussions.
 

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Sounds like I graduated from stupid to "uninteresting".
No, I said it's interesting, just not useful.


I maintain that the knee is a reference point and it is useful to have a ball park number in terms of tire max lean angle.
The knee is literally a reference point in touching down, but that is subjective to each rider based on height, bike, style, etc. Max lean angle is fixed, but you don't need to know this because:

Of course there is no precise formula, but when you're leaning in a corner how do you know you have more or less reached the end of the tire? Looking at the horizon? Waiting to see if the tire is losing "some" grip and then decide?
Yes, the rear will begin to slide, if all your other variables are in a line (that is, in 'perfect' riding), the first thing to give out in turns is the lateral grip of rear tires, which will cause the tire to drift and spin up, which is felt through the chassis, which is then felt by you through feedback through the bars and your position on the racing line as a conscious effect. None of this has anything to do with, or can be enhanced by, knowing the max lean angle of a tire. *You* will feel out the edges of grip adhesion through riding.
 

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The max lean angle of a tire does not mean that you can reach that lean angle in any circumstance, that's why this is a senseless discussion

There are people who can use up all grip at much less than the tire's 'max lean angle', there are also those who can exceed this value. It's completely arbitrary and shouldn't ever be used as a standard.

To think that because the q3 can maintain grip at 55 degrees in a lab means that it will for you is foolish.

You know you are out of lean angle when you run out of traction. Period.
 

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^^ Damn I look good. How'd you get that pic of me?
 

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I feel like you just got off on the wrong foot with our forum members to be honest.


Theres a few members that cant help them selves. TheX had a thread about not being a Ahole but I think he was just screwing with us ha:grin2:
 

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Who cares what the maximum lean angle is. You'll never find out here. There are variables everywhere including just what time of day and where you're riding. You want to know what the max lean angle is? Just go out and ride. When you feel yourself start to lose the grip, congratulations you've found max lean angle. It's a degree that changes day in and day out. Some days you'll be able to take a corner harder then you can other days.
 

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Theres a few members that cant help them selves. TheX had a thread about not being a Ahole but I think he was just screwing with us ha:grin2:
Yes it was something to adjust to here. Coming from a forum for my previous bike that was more of a niche sport bike to the two wheeled equivalent of a ricer forum you have to sift a lot of noise from signal. There's good, experienced, knowledgable, folks here but even some of them ride for team Massengill along with the squids & know nothings who are only here to fill time with smart ass comments.
 

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Discussion Starter · #50 ·
A low-side due to high lean angle happens instantaneously. Why, because the loss of grip is coupled with maximum weight imbalance at that time. Both the bike and the rider weight are exercising pressure on the edge of the tire. It's not like when you're riding a cold tire and you get plenty of feedback.
Sure you can get even more feedback while leaning at, say, 25/30 degrees, but that's only to read a cold tire, not the max lean angle.
 

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The max lean angle of a tire does not mean that you can reach that lean angle in any circumstance, that's why this is a senseless discussion

There are people who can use up all grip at much less than the tire's 'max lean angle', there are also those who can exceed this value. It's completely arbitrary and shouldn't ever be used as a standard.

To think that because the q3 can maintain grip at 55 degrees in a lab means that it will for you is foolish.

You know you are out of lean angle when you run out of traction. Period.
All true but also all considered in the OP's question quoted below. I think if the question were asked to a Dunlop engineer they'd get a simple answer instead of a couple of pages of condescending tripe. Maybe an answer of Dunlop Q3's are capable of X lean angle under optimum conditions. Pretty simple. If anyone here knew that answer they could have offered it up instead of wasting bandwidth. Now even knowing approx lean angles achievable on Q3's the second part of the question could be explored. At max lean angles could or would riders find themselves dragging elbow? My examples & Mina's post show that it's entirely possible in a practical sense to do so on a 600RR. Neither example though linked that with Q3's specifically but hey, that's why he asked the question. Maybe in the hopes that there just happened to be a racer or track day junkie who's been doing exactly that on Q3's. Don't know unless you ask.

I hear that the limit lean angle for Dunlop Q3s and most other performance street/track tires in the that range is about 52 degrees (GP-A racing tires probably closer to the 60 degrees range, like MotoGP?). I know, I know, there are many variables, like speed, curb, chassis, body positions etc, tire size, etc. But can you confidentely say that dragging the elbow on Q3s/600RR is possible under some conditions? Or is it looking for low-sides matter?
 

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All true but also all considered in the OP's question quoted below. I think if the question were asked to a Dunlop engineer they'd get a simple answer instead of a couple of pages of condescending tripe. Maybe an answer of Dunlop Q3's are capable of X lean angle under optimum conditions. Pretty simple. If anyone here knew that answer they could have offered it up instead of wasting bandwidth. Now even knowing approx lean angles achievable on Q3's the second part of the question could be explored. At max lean angles could or would riders find themselves dragging elbow? My examples & Mina's post show that it's entirely possible in a practical sense to do so on a 600RR. Neither example though linked that with Q3's specifically but hey, that's why he asked the question. Maybe in the hopes that there just happened to be a racer or track day junkie who's been doing exactly that on Q3's. Don't know unless you ask.
Reread the question...he didn't even ask what max lean angle is. He has heard (from who/where) that it is 52. Admits that it contains crazy variables. And actually ASKS if anyone can confidently say dragging elbow is possible...

The responses in this thread are as they are because everyone got really tired of the facepalm meme and decided to use words instead.

EDIT: btw, Dunlop engineers won't even tell you proper tire pressure and will only regurgitate the legally approved crap in their manual. Not a chance in hell they're going to start throwing around lean angle stats.

I hear that the limit lean angle for Dunlop Q3s and most other performance street/track tires in the that range is about 52 degrees (GP-A racing tires probably closer to the 60 degrees range, like MotoGP?). I know, I know, there are many variables, like speed, curb, chassis, body positions etc, tire size, etc. But can you confidentely say that dragging the elbow on Q3s/600RR is possible under some conditions? Or is it looking for low-sides matter?
 

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Discussion Starter · #54 · (Edited)
Guys push the front and rear tires around at max lean all the time
The slides you have in mind happen well below 60 degrees in MotoGP, happen in the first part to mid of the corner, and leave marks on the asphalt. To mark the track like that the contact patch must be wide. Check this video, there are a few slides at the begin and end in slow motion, the knee doesn't even touch the ground during the slide. https://youtu.be/PgaQsCLNKNw

I'm not ruling out that today's tires are designed to give riders some feedback when losing grip on the side, but I've never seen or heard of such a thing from expert riders at my track. Logically I would never want to test a tire when fully leaned because I know it's the weakest bike spot. Where does your confidence come from?
 

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Reread the question...he didn't even ask what max lean angle is. He has heard (from who/where) that it is 52. Admits that it contains crazy variables. And actually ASKS if anyone can confidently say dragging elbow is possible...
I read it for exactly what it was. Questions. The only statements were the disclaimers knowing that max lean angle was not an absolute & depended on many factors. That didn't stop everyone from parroting those same factors back at him as if he's an idiot or naive. Other than an impulse to lecture why reiterate the same considerations the OP states in framing the question in the first place? To which the whole point was as you say he ASKS if anyone can confidently say dragging an elbow is possible? No one steps up to answer that because maybe they don't know? I know I'd much rather hear the views from anyone dragging elbow on track in a purposeful way than the hot air (including my own) filling up this thread.

The responses in this thread are as they are because everyone got really tired of the facepalm meme and decided to use words instead.
Again because everyone here is dragging elbows on Q3's or any other tire and the answer is obvious or they know for certain it's not possible or productive as a byproduct of lean angle/body positioning?

EDIT: btw, Dunlop engineers won't even tell you proper tire pressure and will only regurgitate the legally approved crap in their manual. Not a chance in hell they're going to start throwing around lean angle stats.
Are we talking trackside techs or real engineers in the depts who develop the tires? You're right, the guys in the branded shirts selling tires on race weekends are not going to say anything to incur liability. On the other hand tire companies love to flog what actual results are being achieved by their tires (without a "how to" per se) and promote all sorts of data out of their engineering depts whether it's useful or not to us paying yobs. Lean angle is often one of those tidbits they like to throw out. Bridgestone loves to point out the 60+ degrees of lean angle their MotoGP tires achieve. Dunlop & others have also marketed the 50+ degrees of lean angle possible with a given sport tire. Where, how, & under what conditions this happens I'd be curious to know. What that has to do with the recent development of riders now starting to put elbow sliders to work I'd also be curious to know.


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Yes it was something to adjust to here. Coming from a forum for my previous bike that was more of a niche sport bike to the two wheeled equivalent of a ricer forum you have to sift a lot of noise from signal. There's good, experienced, knowledgable, folks here but even some of them ride for team Massengill along with the squids & know nothings who are only here to fill time with smart ass comments.
Haha im not sure if its sarcasm and/or your referring to me about smart ass comments lol
 
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