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Discussion Starter #1
Did anyone notice Tony Elias won the race backing it in heavily in almost every corner? He simply was outbraking everyone, backing the bike in and passing them.

That's how he beat Rossi and KRJR in Estoril.

The knock on Hayden from the 250 riders is he backs it in more than trying to take the smoother line (which I agree is the faster way around a corner) but if it works for Elias to beat Rossi, why wouldn't it work for Hayden.

I will say this, when the 800s come to town, the 250 riders are going to own and Superbike riders in GP racing will be a thing of the past.... (unless we get bike/rider weight limits).
 

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I don't think it'll really matter that much. Sure the bikes are smaller, but significantly so? You're talking about going from 990s to 800s, as opposed to, going from 250 to 800s. From what I hear, the power on those 800s will be up to 990s the way technology is advancing. But yeah, I don't think that there will be a huge weight discrepency. And yeah, Hayden likes to back it in, but he's learning how to be smooth too. Think of it this way, I think Hayden's got a good combination: He can back it in SB style or cornerspeed it 250 style. It's like a quarterback who can make all the throws. Or a pitcher that has an extensive repetoire. He'll be fine. He'll put a lot of laps on the bike in the winter. It'll all be fun anyways, particularly if he takes the checkered flag in Valencia.
 

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Elias was riding the piss out of that bike, it was awesome to watch. He was so late on the brakes but still held good exit speed. That line he took on the corner where Rossi snuck in front was genious.

I wanna learn how to back it in!
 

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It's amazing the talent he has when it was contract time huh???

LOL.....If he can do this all year then 2007 will be great.
 

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hell yeah it was sweet watching elias slide into the corners...it was so pimp...he gets real low when hes leaning too...hes a fun rider to watch
 

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that my friends, was riding 110%. i think i counted 3 times that he almost wrecked/went off track... and that's what it took to beat rossi. awesome to watch, but when it comes to winning champtionships...well, ask biaggi what happens when you ride over your head for more then 5 laps.
 

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RelfF2 said:
that my friends, was riding 110%. i think i counted 3 times that he almost wrecked/went off track... and that's what it took to beat rossi. awesome to watch, but when it comes to winning champtionships...well, ask biaggi what happens when you ride over your head for more then 5 laps.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!! best statement yet. And thats what it will take to beat Rossi...
 

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Rossi would have walked away from them had he not known Hayden was out and who was behind him. He knew what he had to do...not wreck or take anymore chances than he needed to. You actually think Rossi would have let Elias beat him? Elias was riding for next year and Rossi was riding for the title. Yeah he would have a bigger lead had he won...but had he pushed himself harder like we know he can there was a chance he would have crashed out.

I can only hope Hayden is on top of his game and Rossi has issues like he had earlier in the year. With saying that...do I think Hayden can't run with Rossi...wrong...I think he can but he needs Rossi to fall back and not be right behind him. So I am hoping for some more technical difficulties for Rossi.
 

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tony, not completely true. did you hear rossi's interview? he knew the difference between 1st and 2nd was 5 points, and had to calculate how important those 5 points were. at the end he decided it was worth a try and set up a move. did he hang it out for the win? no. but he didn't lay back either. don't take all of it away from Elias.
 

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RelfF2 said:
tony, not completely true. did you hear rossi's interview? he knew the difference between 1st and 2nd was 5 points, and had to calculate how important those 5 points were. at the end he decided it was worth a try and set up a move. did he hang it out for the win? no. but he didn't lay back either. don't take all of it away from Elias.
For real....Toni DUG DEEP to ride like that.
 

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Yeah Rossi almost wrecked trying to get past Elias the last time.
 

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RelfF2 said:
tony, not completely true. did you hear rossi's interview? he knew the difference between 1st and 2nd was 5 points, and had to calculate how important those 5 points were. at the end he decided it was worth a try and set up a move. did he hang it out for the win? no. but he didn't lay back either. don't take all of it away from Elias.
You guys are right Elias rode his ass off but I still think Rossi would have won under normal conditions. For example, just by him saying he thought things through and decided to go for the extra points tells me his first thought wasn't to go balls out. The situation made him think it through and normally there wouldn't have been anything to think about. His killer insticnt would have pushed him right by Elias.

I do give credit where it is due...Elias rode well and deserves the win. Had Rossi won I would have been more pissed than I am now...being a Hayden fan and all. Thanks Elias :) Now if Roberts hadn't of thought the next to last lap was the last one maybe hayden would only be 4 points down.
 

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the power on those 800s will be up to 990s the way technology is advancing.
+1.

I agree with you, but the only way to make that kind've power out of a smaller engine is rev the crap out of it. (See: the new R6). Which would be more like a two stroke powerband. I gotta say the 250 guys may have a leg up on anyone who's only raced 4-stroke superbikes.
 

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Backing it in doesn't really result in having a smoother/faster line through a corner. In fact, it's actually a bit slower on the GP bikes. If you combine their light weight, crazy electronics, and advanced tires it results in a bike that can rip through a corner using extreme lean angles and higher speeds. Backing it in is a very useful defensive technique and also a good way to make passes because you can be late on the brakes.

Even Rossi has quoted saying that he doesn't slide anymore because the tires are so good now that you end up going slower if you slide around. But if you're leading and someone is trying to pass you, then getting the bike sideways (perpendicular to the apex somewhat) covers more ground and can deter a rider from taking a certain line to pass.

But I'm not too sure on the debate of whether backing it in saves tires or eats them up. I've always thought it saved tires because you're not riding on the edge of the tire to make a turn, rather using wheelspin and steering forces to get around.


Onto the 800s:

You guys honestly think a 190cc restriction is going to make the MotoGP bikes rev crazy and have hostile power bands like the GP bikes of yesteryear? That's insane. The goal of each team is to build a bike with useable/manageable power with good tractability.

These bikes will just have higher rev ceilings, slightly smaller powerbands, and the biggest difference will be straight line speed (the entire point of the restriciton). I think corner speed will slightly increase with the lower weight and advances in electronics and tires. Even in the 500cc days, Honda was always trying to build a GP bike with useable power and a "friendly" torque curve. The new bikes are going to be nowhere near a 2-stoke in terms of power. Currently, the bikes build power smoothly from 3,000 to whatever RPM (I'm just speculating here). The new 800s will probably start building power a bit later. After that, it will be a question of whether a manufacturer wants more power or tractability, resulting in peaky and smooth power respectively.

The 250cc riders aren't going to have this huge advantage that some of you believe. They still have to deal with 4-stroke characteristics like engine-braking. Sure, the transition from a 250cc 2-stroke to a 800cc 4-stroke is going to be less difficult than if the rules never changed at all, but not to the degree that I'm reading here.

I do see the the GSV-R (finally) and the Ilmor/Suter X3 doing well because of their use of pneumatic valves. The high(er) revving bikes will take full advantage of that F1 technology. Hopefully, we'll see Hopper on the podium for once.

To sum it up:

GP racing is NOT going to be turned upside-down because of lower displacement and slightly altered power curves. And 250cc riders aren't going to have it any easier, it's just going to be a bit less difficult for them. That's it.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
aren said:
Backing it in doesn't really result in having a smoother/faster line through a corner. In fact, it's actually a bit slower on the GP bikes. If you combine their light weight, crazy electronics, and advanced tires it results in a bike that can rip through a corner using extreme lean angles and higher speeds. Backing it in is a very useful defensive technique and also a good way to make passes because you can be late on the brakes.

Even Rossi has quoted saying that he doesn't slide anymore because the tires are so good now that you end up going slower if you slide around. But if you're leading and someone is trying to pass you, then getting the bike sideways (perpendicular to the apex somewhat) covers more ground and can deter a rider from taking a certain line to pass.

But I'm not too sure on the debate of whether backing it in saves tires or eats them up. I've always thought it saved tires because you're not riding on the edge of the tire to make a turn, rather using wheelspin and steering forces to get around.
I didn't mean to imply that backing it in is the faster way around. I know it's the slower way. What I was implying is that you CAN back it and still be fast. Elias proved that :)


Onto the 800s:

The 250cc riders aren't going to have this huge advantage that some of you believe. They still have to deal with 4-stroke characteristics like engine-braking. Sure, the transition from a 250cc 2-stroke to a 800cc 4-stroke is going to be less difficult than if the rules never changed at all, but not to the degree that I'm reading here.

I do see the the GSV-R (finally) and the Ilmor/Suter X3 doing well because of their use of pneumatic valves. The high(er) revving bikes will take full advantage of that F1 technology. Hopefully, we'll see Hopper on the podium for once.

To sum it up:

GP racing is NOT going to be turned upside-down because of lower displacement and slightly altered power curves. And 250cc riders aren't going to have it any easier, it's just going to be a bit less difficult for them. That's it.
Here is my take on the 800s. Removing 190ccs is removing a LOT of torque from the bikes. Torque matters a lot when you are carrying extra weight. It's what gives you good drive out of the corners.

The 800s will be down on torque by a good margin. With lighter cranks, that will shave even more torque. Now, slap a 105lb rider vs a 150lb rider on the same bike and the advantage goes directly to the lighter rider.

Pedrosa, Capirossi, Stoner, Melandri. They will all have an advantage. I think MotoGP needs to implement a minimum rider/weight restriction to insure the BEST riders get on the track and not just the smallest, lightest....

Otherwise you'll see no more AMA/WSBK/BSBK, etc riders making it to MotoGP unless they're tiny. Like DiSalvo....
 
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