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missed this thread.

well most of you know how i feel about the GOP

i am firm for ronpaul, as far as i am concerned he wins them.

it seems to be standard that when the question arises that deals with law or the constitution, they look to RP. of course he would have the answers.

mb thats saying something.
 

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where u able to watch the debate from last saturday?

i dont like rick santorum at all but i gotta say, he brought up a pretty good point against our man RP. RP was referencing how the military picked up a couple of iranian soldiers/fisherman (?) and santorum stated that if RP was pres. there would have been no military to rescue them...i thought that was a pretty valid point.
 

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ok that is a valid point that our military would not have been there to rescue those handful of fishermen...

hmm i guess those fishermen warrant the lives of american soldiers, iraqi and afgani soldiers and civilians...

but on 2nd thought it doesnt. =)

mb somebody else would have been there for them, mb not.
fact is fishing is a dangerous job or can be, and its not our biz to be there, or to save them.

and if santorum was arguing that the fact they were there, so that may lead to diplomacy, which he isnt, the fact still remains that we would not having to talk about that issue if we were staying out of their biz.

if iran wants nuclear power, they should be able to have it. its not justified to bomb them because of that. even if they get a nuclear weapon, its still not justified to attack them.


strong national defense should not mean offense. if we kill every body who doesnt like our ways, it doesnt make us 'right'


look at Romney's foreign policy, its something like, "if america aint happy, no body happy"
im paraphrasing of course, haha.


i honestly dont think that santorum really had a 'comeback' with that statement. in all fairness.
 

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i see what you mean. but i brought it up cuz i thought RP was mentioning the act as an example of diplomacy with Iran rather than our current activities. so santorums point of "well we wouldnt have been there to rescue them if you were pres." refuted his point quite well IMO. by no means am i supporting santorum im just thinking out loud here.

i get what ur saying tho about american lives and how saving those few iranians doesnt justify our being there. thats a good point.

i also agree with you about the U.S. not meddling in their nuclear activities. its not in our best interest to police the world and force everyone to abide by "our" standards. yeah, its probably not safe for iran to have nukes but its really not our right to prevent them. i mean turn the tables. what if Iranians were assissinating american engineers in attempt to prevent us from having nuclear weapons to preserve their best interests. we cant govern the world, jus like RP is saying, we are stetching ourselves to thin to the point of inevitable collapse.
 

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yea santorum did have a quick answer, but i think once examined it is shown as hollow and meaningless.

if the tables were turned america would most def mot enjoy the sanctions or the blockage from technology.

nuclear weapons are not safe for anybody to have.

two have been used, and if you think about it, what a sad sad set of events. lot of innocent people died, a lot more than soldiers.

war sucks, period.
 

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war is war man. its inevitable. yea war sucks and is unfair, but no one ever said life was spose to be fair. the only thing we can do is accept that human life is a necessary sacrifice to be made for freedom and honor those who have fallen. i believe in war when the enemy is clear and evident.
 

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ok that is a valid point that our military would not have been there to rescue those handful of fishermen...

hmm i guess those fishermen warrant the lives of american soldiers, iraqi and afgani soldiers and civilians...

but on 2nd thought it doesnt. =)
So you are saying American lives are more valuable than Iranian lives and not worth risking just because they were Iranian? I feel bad for you.
 

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timmeh you are drunk or kidding right.

i should have put that in italics, because italics is what i use for sarcasm,
but when i said, and you quoted me on this, but on 2nd thought it doesnt =)
that was me hinting to the sarcasm.


gvelio_

yes war is a nasty devil, and lives must be lost during a war.
but, endless war, war over lies, war over things that are none of our biz,
i do not accept those and neither should you.

american citizens are not under attack by a foreign enemy. the enemy is right here at home.

who is taking away our freedom and liberty, the reason you cite as a justification for war?
did we loose freedom to afg, iraq, are we loosing it to iran? did we loose it to somalia or vietnam.

i say no

i say the people taking are freedoms away are right here at home passing laws like
NDAA
patriot act
homeland security.
TSA is a god awful group


please reconsider
 

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^no no no, i think uve misunderstood Dep. i said i believe in war when the enemy is clear and evident. in the case of the war going on in the mid. E. our enemy is not clear and evident. by no means am i supporting what were doing over there. thats not what i was getting at. my previous justificatoin for war was not aimed at our current military actions, it was a generalization. i apologize for not clarifying that.

i agree that we have to clean things up on our own turf before we even consider dealing with other nation's business. i dont support our actions in the Mid E trying to promote democracy...its not our place. but we are there and yeah, we had some success but i dont think we're at a point where we can pull out ASAP. yeah, we need to get out of there. but i think the answer of when is more complicated than just a simple answer. i could be wrong. mabye pullin out right now is the right thing to do. my opinion is that it isnt.
 

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I can't get on board w/letting Iran obtain nuclear weapons when it's clear that any sacrifice is worth it in their eyes to destroy Israel. We should at least keep the support of Israel, in terms of weapons, up.

It pains me to say this, especially having done an 11 month tour for OIF, but Iraq was a mistake. That kind of stuff, I agree, we should stay out of.


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I can't get on board w/letting Iran obtain nuclear weapons when it's clear that any sacrifice is worth it in their eyes to destroy Israel. We should at least keep the support of Israel, in terms of weapons, up.

It pains me to say this, especially having done an 11 month tour for OIF, but Iraq was a mistake. That kind of stuff, I agree, we should stay out of.


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proof of a weapon?

iraq was a mistake, dont make the same mistake with iran.

also, isreal CAN defend themselves, they have nuclear weapons. if iran bombed them, then iran would surely be destroyed by isreal, they have more defensive capability than Iran.

it is NOT OUR BIZ.. period.

dont be fooled by the war propaganda.
 

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proof of a weapon?

iraq was a mistake, dont make the same mistake with iran.

also, isreal CAN defend themselves, they have nuclear weapons. if iran bombed them, then iran would surely be destroyed by isreal, they have more defensive capability than Iran.

it is NOT OUR BIZ.. period.

dont be fooled by the war propaganda.
I don't think it's a secret that they are building a bomb. Let's not play devils advocate b/c Iraq was a complete intelligence failure. Why else would the Mossad be sticking bombs to the side of cars Iranian scientists are riding in? They live and die by intel and remaining a step ahead of whomever is trying to kill them. (See six day war)

That being said, if you think we can just sit in our little cocoon with our fingers in our ears while we shout "not my problem", you have another thing coming. Problems have a way of crossing oceans. You will care when gas is 10.00 a gallon b/c of conflict between Israel/Iran.

Now, I would agree that we are involved in way, way, too much. We've made all kinds of nonsense our business. Personally, I'd like to stop funding the UN. We shouldn't pay a dime more than the next highest paying member with veto power if we stay in. We need to stop giving away money to countries like Pakistan, we don't need to do that kind of trash.

We need to stop allowing Chinese imports to come across cheap while they manipulate their currency and jack the price of our stuff. We need to stop borrowing and learn to live within our means.

That's the kind of change I want to see.Who represents that? No one..RP is the closest I suppose...



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RP is the closest youre right.

less medlin' in others biz and i think we would be quite a bit safer .

frankly, i want individual liberty to be protected, not sacrificed for security.

rather die and live free, than live forever in a cage
 

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I don't think it's a secret that they are building a bomb. Let's not play devils advocate b/c Iraq was a complete intelligence failure. Why else would the Mossad be sticking bombs to the side of cars Iranian scientists are riding in? They live and die by intel and remaining a step ahead of whomever is trying to kill them. (See six day war)

That being said, if you think we can just sit in our little cocoon with our fingers in our ears while we shout "not my problem", you have another thing coming. Problems have a way of crossing oceans. You will care when gas is 10.00 a gallon b/c of conflict between Israel/Iran.

Now, I would agree that we are involved in way, way, too much. We've made all kinds of nonsense our business. Personally, I'd like to stop funding the UN. We shouldn't pay a dime more than the next highest paying member with veto power if we stay in. We need to stop giving away money to countries like Pakistan, we don't need to do that kind of trash.

We need to stop allowing Chinese imports to come across cheap while they manipulate their currency and jack the price of our stuff. We need to stop borrowing and learn to live within our means.

That's the kind of change I want to see.Who represents that? No one..RP is the closest I suppose...



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Alot of what you are wanting RP is going to do. He is not going to get rid of the Military, he is just going to get us back here where we can focus on us and not everyone else. Gas wouldn't be $10gallon because we would be drilling in Alaska and our coast line to keep the oil here. We would then become an exporter of oil and then we can pay back China for our debts. Stop borrowing to pay for government regulated entities. No more of these. Get rid of the government problems and make them private industries.
If you want an example cut and dry of a government run agency that doesn't work and can't even break even in 100 years of doing business is USPS.
You would think in 100 years of doing something you could at least break even one year!!!! Too much union involvement and nice pensions being handed out without knowing how they were going to pay for them.

If usps fails that is the start of big problems.
 

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I don't think it's a secret that they are building a bomb.
Actually, it is. Despite all the media bullsh*t, there is no evidence that Iran is actively seeking a nuclear bomb. What they are seeking, is a nuclear industry/capability which is currently for peaceful purposes. They are 100% entitled to this right due to being signatories of the NPT and incidentally, they are also in full compliance with it.

You're probably clueless, but both of Iran's enrichment sites are under video surveillance, internationally monitored at all times. To date, all enrichment material is 100% accounted for.

Feel free to read the latest IAEA report, and prove me wrong. Or you can continue to listen to the propaganda in the media and in 10 years time you can look back and feel the same way you do about Iraq.

Let's not play devils advocate b/c Iraq was a complete intelligence failure. Why else would the Mossad be sticking bombs to the side of cars Iranian scientists are riding in? They live and die by intel and remaining a step ahead of whomever is trying to kill them. (See six day war)
So you acknowledge the colossal intelligence failure that was Iraq, but somehow Iran is drastically different? How exactly? You're implying that because Israel is bombing them, that they must have some killer intel or something... Take a guess who else Israel has bombed and f^cked with in the past? Iraq. But I'm sure that's just a coincidence.

That being said, if you think we can just sit in our little cocoon with our fingers in our ears while we shout "not my problem", you have another thing coming. Problems have a way of crossing oceans. You will care when gas is 10.00 a gallon b/c of conflict between Israel/Iran.
Yea, and who's fault will it be when/if a conflict erupts? If China sent some assassins to the USA and was picking off scientists and other influential people, who's going to get blamed when the war starts?

Israel is being the little sh*t disturber that it is, is trying to provoke a response from Iran, they desperately want a war with Iran but they don't want to be the bad guy. They want Iran to lash out and give people such as yourself the "justification" for war.
 

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Actually, it is. Despite all the media bullsh*t, there is no evidence that Iran is actively seeking a nuclear bomb. What they are seeking, is a nuclear industry/capability which is currently for peaceful purposes. They are 100% entitled to this right due to being signatories of the NPT and incidentally, they are also in full compliance with it.
There is no evidence that Iran is ONLY seeking peaceful use of nuclear power either. Did you actually read the IAEA report? Did you read any analysis? The fact of the matter is Iran could easily silence the accusations of weapons pursuit by allowing unrestricted access to inspectors. Whats interesting is that despite the fact that reports are coming out both claiming Iran is seeking nuclear tech for peaceful means and claiming Iran is seeking weapons, you choose to claim as fact that their pursuit is for peaceful means while dismissing any possibility of weapons pursuit, all based on the same evidence. When the IAEA has restricted access as it is how can you make such a claim?

From the 13 page annex of the IAEA report: "The 13-page annex to the IAEA's report released Tuesday included claims that while some of Iran's activities have civilian as well as military applications, others are "specific to nuclear weapons." Among these were indications that Iran has conducted high explosives testing and detonator development to set off a nuclear charge, as well as computer modeling of a core of a nuclear warhead. The report also cited preparatory work for a nuclear weapons test, and development of a nuclear payload for Iran's Shahab 3 intermediate-range missile — a weapon that can reach Israel.

You're probably clueless, but both of Iran's enrichment sites are under video surveillance, internationally monitored at all times. To date, all enrichment material is 100% accounted for.
Someone is clueless, but it isnt me. They are not under video surveillance, they are under satellite surveillance. Thats not even close to the same thing. This is but one link, and there are many sources available, concerning this subject. Please take the time to get yourself up to speed. You will see that opinions, even at the IAEA are not unanimous, people are concerned about Iran's intentions at all levels. Iran has no intention of letting unfettered inspections happen, I can't imagine why.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/07/world/middleeast/united-states-hangs-back-as-inspectors-prepare-report-on-irans-nuclear-program.html

Feel free to read the latest IAEA report, and prove me wrong. Or you can continue to listen to the propaganda in the media and in 10 years time you can look back and feel the same way you do about Iraq.


So you acknowledge the colossal intelligence failure that was Iraq, but somehow Iran is drastically different? How exactly? You're implying that because Israel is bombing them, that they must have some killer intel or something... Take a guess who else Israel has bombed and f^cked with in the past? Iraq. But I'm sure that's just a coincidence.
I was sitting in the gulf waiting for word for the invasion to start, even then I knew Iraq was none of our business. Iran is drastically different. When, from the highest levels of their gov, they claim the Holocaust didn't happen, claim Israel doesn't have a right to exist, and if not for Israel's strong military, would probably attack now, they should be taken seriously.

The sort of people who strap bombs to their chests are the sort of people ruling Iran. Perhaps you should take some time to understand the significance of the land that is Israel in the Islamic world. Its a religious war, we here in the west think there is a political solution however. Do I think they would sacrifice themselves (obviously Israel would nuke them back) to rid the ME of Israel? Truthfully, I don't know. For what its worth I believe the people of Iran want change, that they are interested in overthrowing their gov and living in peace with their neighbors, the gov has the guns and cracks down hard on dissenters.


Yea, and who's fault will it be when/if a conflict erupts? If China sent some assassins to the USA and was picking off scientists and other influential people, who's going to get blamed when the war starts?

Israel is being the little sh*t disturber that it is, is trying to provoke a response from Iran, they desperately want a war with Iran but they don't want to be the bad guy. They want Iran to lash out and give people such as yourself the "justification" for war.
People such as myself? What does that even mean? Israel is surrounded on all sides by hostile countries. It wasn't always so, they had an arrangement with Egypt until the Obama admin gave the nod of approval for the overthrow of the Egyptian gov in the name of democracy. Of course now we have the Muslim brotherhood running the show and cutting ties with Israel. Imagine that. Whats funny is Obama didn't give that same nod to Iranian's protesting in the streets during the election Mahmoud Ahmadinejad just stole. Funny how that works huh? "No democracy for you Iran!"

Iraq was an intel failure. That doesn't mean that no cause is worthy of war from here on out. It just means that we better be sure, that we better have a smoking gun, before we fight again. Israel won't stand by and allow their existence to be threatened, although it easy for you who faces no threat to say they should. Bottom line, Israel is our ally. We need not supply troops, Id sell them all the weaponry they need though.
 

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The worst part about the GOP is that some weak link will get the nod and Obama will beat the **** out of him. RP FTW.
 

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There is no evidence that Iran is ONLY seeking peaceful use of nuclear power either. Did you actually read the IAEA report? Did you read any analysis? The fact of the matter is Iran could easily silence the accusations of weapons pursuit by allowing unrestricted access to inspectors. Whats interesting is that despite the fact that reports are coming out both claiming Iran is seeking nuclear tech for peaceful means and claiming Iran is seeking weapons, you choose to claim as fact that their pursuit is for peaceful means while dismissing any possibility of weapons pursuit, all based on the same evidence. When the IAEA has restricted access as it is how can you make such a claim?
LOL, what kind of retarded sh*t is that. There's also no evidence that Iran isn't planning to take over the world. Having no evidence isn't evidence that something nefarious is going down. I'm not claiming anything as fact other than what the evidence suggests. Go ahead show some tangible proof that Iran is still working on a nuclear weapons program. It's widely believed by experts that they stopped that in 2003. If you disagree, show me the new evidence that suggests otherwise.

Maybe you're heard of Leon Penatta, Secretary of Defence, formerly the Director of the CIA:

Oh sh*t! He just said that he doesn't believe Iran has a nuclear weapons program. Yea, I know, there's still something out there that hasn't been discovered. Iran MUST be developing weapons because Israel says so.

From the 13 page annex of the IAEA report: "The 13-page annex to the IAEA's report released Tuesday included claims that while some of Iran's activities have civilian as well as military applications, others are "specific to nuclear weapons." Among these were indications that Iran has conducted high explosives testing and detonator development to set off a nuclear charge, as well as computer modeling of a core of a nuclear warhead. The report also cited preparatory work for a nuclear weapons test, and development of a nuclear payload for Iran's Shahab 3 intermediate-range missile — a weapon that can reach Israel.
It's nice that you're a johnny come lately, this is all sh*t they discovered prior to 2003. There is no NEW evidence contained in this latest report, so please feel free to keep quoting new speculation on old evidence. Go read the 2003/4 reports and see how much of this "evidence" is new, then please come back and educate me.

Someone is clueless, but it isnt me. They are not under video surveillance, they are under satellite surveillance. Thats not even close to the same thing. This is but one link, and there are many sources available, concerning this subject. Please take the time to get yourself up to speed. You will see that opinions, even at the IAEA are not unanimous, people are concerned about Iran's intentions at all levels. Iran has no intention of letting unfettered inspections happen, I can't imagine why.
Oh Really? Not under video surveillance. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Iran+IAEA+video+surveillance

Would you like to keep talking out of your ass? The IAEA has CCTV cameras installed, and they can look around the enrichment facilities anytime they like. Just because all you listen to/watch is bullsh*t western media that conveniently omits facts, and distort reality doesn't mean I do.

IAEA has all the access it needs for Iran to be compliant with their NPT obligations. Which is far more transparency than some countries.

I was sitting in the gulf waiting for word for the invasion to start, even then I knew Iraq was none of our business. Iran is drastically different. When, from the highest levels of their gov, they claim the Holocaust didn't happen, claim Israel doesn't have a right to exist, and if not for Israel's strong military, would probably attack now, they should be taken seriously.
Yawn. I don't feel like getting into Israel's "right to exist". Separate issue.

The sort of people who strap bombs to their chests are the sort of people ruling Iran. Perhaps you should take some time to understand the significance of the land that is Israel in the Islamic world. Its a religious war, we here in the west think there is a political solution however. Do I think they would sacrifice themselves (obviously Israel would nuke them back) to rid the ME of Israel? Truthfully, I don't know. For what its worth I believe the people of Iran want change, that they are interested in overthrowing their gov and living in peace with their neighbors, the gov has the guns and cracks down hard on dissenters.
Right, Iran is a terrorist state, the one constantly making aggressive threats against all its neighbors. Why would Iran nuke Israel? Why would it piss 5000 years of Persian history down the drain? Iran knows full well that Israel/US would retaliate. But more importantly, lets ignore that Iran hasn't attacked anyone in 100+ years, so you're suspicions are based on nothing more than paranoia perpetuated by the media.

People such as myself? What does that even mean? Israel is surrounded on all sides by hostile countries. It wasn't always so, they had an arrangement with Egypt until the Obama admin gave the nod of approval for the overthrow of the Egyptian gov in the name of democracy. Of course now we have the Muslim brotherhood running the show and cutting ties with Israel. Imagine that. Whats funny is Obama didn't give that same nod to Iranian's protesting in the streets during the election Mahmoud Ahmadinejad just stole. Funny how that works huh? "No democracy for you Iran!"
LOL, you're so ignorant that it's laughable. Egypt was only "friendly" with Israel because the US propped up (read: paid) their dictator for like 3+ decades, to the detriment of the Egyptian people. They finally caught wind of the depth of the corruption when wikileaks published all those diplomatic cables, it has nothing to do with Obama giving a nod of anything. Obama simply said that Mubarak should step down if that's the will of the people. Last I heard/read the military was still running the show, not the Muslim Botherhood... So I don't know where your "intel" is coming from but I'd recommend checking your sources again.

Want to talk about stolen elections? How about 1953, when the US/Britain actually did say "No democracy for you Iran" by overthrowing the democratically elected Mohammad Mosaddegh, and installed their very own US friendly puppet. Funny how that works huh? It's OK when the US does it, but not the other way around.

Iraq was an intel failure. That doesn't mean that no cause is worthy of war from here on out. It just means that we better be sure, that we better have a smoking gun, before we fight again. Israel won't stand by and allow their existence to be threatened, although it easy for you who faces no threat to say they should. Bottom line, Israel is our ally. We need not supply troops, Id sell them all the weaponry they need though.
Israel is a big boy. Let it fight its own battles. The only person that threatens Israels existence, is Israel. If they want to pick fights with all their neighbors, and not work towards peaceful resolutions, let them deal with the consequences.

I could go on all day trashing your pathetic one-sided knowledge of the region, you know FAR less than you think you know. But if you want to keep it coming feel free.
 
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