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Has it occurred to anyone else that America has become a hypocritical powerhouse where immigration is concerned?

I'm thinkin specifically of Mexicans hopping the border and entering the Southwest states illegally. Yes, I understand that many of them are given medical attention, welfare, etc, at American citizen taxpayers' expense. I'm not saying that's right or okay, by any means. I'm not incredibly well-informed regarding any political topic, and I won't pretend to be. But here in Arizona, some (I'm not sure if its a majority or a minority) of those illegals are returned to Mexico when caught. No, just to be clear, I don't have a problem with enforcing our immigration policy; in fact, I think its ridiculous that any illegals are allowed to stay. The law is the law, and whether I think its right or not, I want it to be enforced, because when you have a government who claims to stand for something, but turns and looks away when its policies are being broken, you end up with a country divided on itself, and that country will have begun it's downward spiral to destruction. My problem is with the policy itself.

When our country was formed, our policies and constitution were created in a way no other country had done so before. Our country was created by people who fled their governments because they were displeased with how they were ran, they wanted more rights in certain areas, etc. But now, America turns away people who seek exactly what we desired when we came here looking for freedom. And here's the problem with that. The very fact that we turn people away who are seeking asylum, or just a better way of life here in America, creates an elitist attitude among our citizens. The problem with that elitist attitude is that it breeds hate, contempt, and a misguided sense of power compared to other people ...which is clearly a mindset that opposes the ideals our country was built on from the ground up - that all men are created equal, and all men deserve the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. (Quote by Thomas Jefferson, who owned hundreds of slaves, but allegedly treated them well, so its okay...)

If you don't see the hypocrisy and downright stupidity that this country now thrives on, we, as a country and a people slowly being stripped of the freedoms you believe you have simply because you're "American", have an immense problem coming our way. You know what it means to be American? It means nothing. It's a self-imposed title, and a self-imposed title comes with zero credibility, and zero authority.
 

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to be honest, I cant imagine a large percentage of people come here because of they want freedom. what i do know is that most people want to get in to the US because it have more opportunity to make more money.

I'm personally inline with the Romans when it comes to border issues. As long as you paid your taxes and don't cause any trouble, you are welcome to stay here. however this is not the case. many Mexicans that came here that i know of don't pay taxes, using the public services such as roads, schools, hospitals, 911 call, etc with out paying into the city, the state, and the feds. when they make some money, they either piss it away by buying food and alcohols which leads to troubles, or they send it home which does nothing to the US.

I personally wont have too much of a problem if they were all on the path of obtaining permanent residency, however this is not the case.

the only reasons the Mexicans are under the spotlight is because they are the biggest immigration issues right now. so just like the Chinese, Irish, Italian, and the Blacks before them, they must suffer the unequal treatment before they earn their rightful place in America.
 

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20090812/hl_time/08599191576800
It's never been easy to be part of the huddled masses. The Statue of Liberty may not be choosy about the wretched refuse she allows in the door, but Americans haven't always been so hospitable. Immigrants from Ireland landed in the U.S. in the 1850s only to find shop windows festooned with signs reading "No Irish Need Apply." The Chinese toiled to build our transcontinental railroad in the 1860s only to see the infamous Chinese Exclusion Act signed in 1882, suspending further immigration. The unwritten rule was simple: pretty much anyone was welcome, except the newest group - or at least the one arriving in the greatest numbers - who would have a harder go of things.

All that's changed, though, right? In our new postracial world, haven't we risen above such petty prejudice? Actually, no, we haven't. But the good news is, we're doing better than you might expect. According to a new study released by a pair of sociology professors, the battle between Lady Liberty and Lou Dobbs is now being fought to a draw, and our better angels may slowly be prevailing. (See pictures of the U.S. border patrol tracking illegal immigrants.)

The research, conducted by Jeffrey Timberlake of the University of Cincinnati and Rhys Williams of Loyola University Chicago, was presented this week at the annual convention of the American Sociological Association, in San Francisco. In order to take America's temperature on the often overheated topic of immigrants, the researchers went to an unlikely place: Ohio.

For all its purple-state, heartland rep, large portions of Ohio are still very monochrome - which is to say white - and mostly untouched by on-the-ground experience with people not born in the U.S. Local opinions about immigrants would thus presumably be shaped mostly by what people read or see on TV, combined with a general sense of America's shared melting-pot history. "This makes Ohio ideal for understanding public attitudes ... largely unaffected by actual immigrant levels," the researchers wrote.

Timberlake and Rhys surveyed more than 2,100 Ohioans about their attitudes toward four groups: Europeans, Asians, Middle Easterners and Latinos, specifically asking them about each group's intelligence, income levels, self-sufficiency, ability to assimilate and proclivity toward violence. The results were often surprising - and often not. (Read TIME's 1987 cover story on an Asian-American stereotype.)

Uniformly, Asians finished first in the wealth, intelligence and self-sufficiency categories, followed by Europeans and Middle Easterners, with Latinos finishing last. Asians fell a notch, to second, in willingness to assimilate, with Europeans taking the top spot. When it came to violence, the order was reversed: Latinos on top, then Middle Easterners, then Europeans and Asians.

"In some respects, this was exactly what we expected," says Timberlake. The stereotypes of wealthy, studious Asians and ready-to-fit-in Europeans have been fixed in the public mind for years now, and endure even in homogenous communities in which the need for real assimilation ended long ago.

The extremely low marks for Latinos, on the other hand, are of more recent vintage. Immigrants from south of the border may never have enjoyed the same cultural cachet as, say, those from France or England, but the cratering of their numbers is almost surely the result of more than two years of campaign-trail rhetoric and cable fulminations on the issue of illegal Mexican immigrants. "I can't say for certain how the data would have been different in the pre–Lou Dobbs or Glenn Beck era," says Timberlake, "but it seems we're seeing the reflection of the general debate." (See pictures of the fence between the U.S. and Mexico.)

Still, there's happy news within the findings. Timberlake was especially pleased by the relatively positive marks given Middle Easterners - hardly something that would have been expected after Sept. 11. "Even in the post-9/11 context, we're not seeing Middle Easterners stirring much fear, or at least as much as we thought," says Timberlake. Indeed, they stir a fair amount of respect, with 75% of respondents not questioning their self-sufficiency, 81% having no quarrel with their intelligence and 69% rejecting the stereotype that they are generally poor.

Similarly, though Asians must often combat a reputation for standoffishness, just 38% of Ohioans saw them that way. And while only 31% of respondents believed Latinos were self-sufficient enough to get by without government handouts, another 23% had no opinion, meaning the idea that immigrants from the Spanish-speaking world cannot get by without the federal dole is now, at least, a minority view.

That may be small consolation for the Latino community, which just saw one of its members ascend to the Supreme Court but must still struggle for basic respect. Yet the study does suggest ways to fix the problem. For one thing, Timberlake says, the cable ranters should pipe down - or the audience should switch them off. "These people are entertainers seeking attention," he says. "I don't see the value of ginning up hatred of a particular group. All that does is diminish our chance to solve the problem."

Hard economic times - and the desperation with which people who still have jobs guard them - may also be exacerbating the problem. So as the fiscal crisis eases, the anti-immigrant bias may too. Most important, says Timberlake, is to remember U.S. history. Every immigrant group that was demonized and ostracized eventually overcame the prejudice and became part of the nation's cultural quilt. "We've seen this movie before," he says. It almost always ends happily.
very interesting read
 

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Has it occurred to anyone else that America has become a hypocritical powerhouse where immigration is concerned?

I'm thinkin specifically of Mexicans hopping the border and entering the Southwest states illegally. Yes, I understand that many of them are given medical attention, welfare, etc, at American citizen taxpayers' expense. I'm not saying that's right or okay, by any means. I'm not incredibly well-informed regarding any political topic, and I won't pretend to be. But here in Arizona, some (I'm not sure if its a majority or a minority) of those illegals are returned to Mexico when caught. No, just to be clear, I don't have a problem with enforcing our immigration policy; in fact, I think its ridiculous that any illegals are allowed to stay. The law is the law, and whether I think its right or not, I want it to be enforced, because when you have a government who claims to stand for something, but turns and looks away when its policies are being broken, you end up with a country divided on itself, and that country will have begun it's downward spiral to destruction. My problem is with the policy itself.

When our country was formed, our policies and constitution were created in a way no other country had done so before. Our country was created by people who fled their governments because they were displeased with how they were ran, they wanted more rights in certain areas, etc. But now, America turns away people who seek exactly what we desired when we came here looking for freedom. And here's the problem with that. The very fact that we turn people away who are seeking asylum, or just a better way of life here in America, creates an elitist attitude among our citizens. The problem with that elitist attitude is that it breeds hate, contempt, and a misguided sense of power compared to other people ...which is clearly a mindset that opposes the ideals our country was built on from the ground up - that all men are created equal, and all men deserve the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. (Quote by Thomas Jefferson, who owned hundreds of slaves, but allegedly treated them well, so its okay...)

If you don't see the hypocrisy and downright stupidity that this country now thrives on, we, as a country and a people slowly being stripped of the freedoms you believe you have simply because you're "American", have an immense problem coming our way. You know what it means to be American? It means nothing. It's a self-imposed title, and a self-imposed title comes with zero credibility, and zero authority.
Man, I wish more people thought like this. That's one thing that really annoys me. Most Americans think too highly of themselves simply because they are American. I understand patriotism, but I wish that more people would realize just how good they have it and how truly fortunate they are to be born in the USA instead of Zimbabwe. Just because you were lucky enough to be born in the USA doesn't mean you earned anything and doesn't entitle you to boast about anything because a lot of it was handed to you... (not saying that people didn't work for the things they have, just that you had a stacked deck compared to many.)

Immigration is a sticky thing, US is now at the point where it's now trying to protect its jobs... There are many people from around the world that don't have/not accustomed to the American life style (cell phone, nice car, nice house... etc) and are therefore willing to work for much less.

Both China and India graduate more top 1% (summa/magna cum-laude) engineers than the total number of engineers graduating in the US. So there's a never ending stream of brilliant people overseas... what happens to American engineers? Should they be forced to fight against people willing to take 30-40K for an engineering position?

Corporations love immigration because they can bring of lots of fresh talent and pay them substantially lower than average wages... I feel that the government should look after/protect its current citizens before it looks after its future citizens. That doesn't mean I'm against immigration, I'm for it... but obviously it can't be a open door.

So basically, There's a certain balancing act that must go on for immigration otherwise you'll be catering to future citizens and leaving your current ones behind. The only real way is to setup a quota and give everyone a fair shot.

to be honest, I cant imagine a large percentage of people come here because of they want freedom. what i do know is that most people want to get in to the US because it have more opportunity to make more money.
It's a lot more than just making more money... it's a chance at a new life/future for yourself and your family. A chance to get away from crappy conditions and corruption. Some people are more than happy to be able to drive a taxi all day long and provide a modest living for their family.
 

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As a Mexican American I can tell you they pay taxes whether you believe it or not. A few percentage of Latinos get paid under the table. Most illegal Latinos obtain jobs by using false documentation and thus every time they get paid just like me and you, taxes are deducted. They also buy homes or rent an apartment taxes are also included, they buy vehicles taxes included, and they also buy consumer products like you and me and guess what taxes also included. I feel very disrespected when you said Mexicans waste their money away on food and alcohol. Their are plenty of mexicans who work to put their kids through college, because let me tell you something just like their is drunk and drug addicted Mexicans their are more Americans with the same problems. I am not saying that Latinos are all good because their are a few bad apples that ruin the bunch and give us a bad name. Just like their is so called dirty mexicans their are a bunch of white trash people like my neighbors. This argument can go on for ever and we will get nowhere, I do agree that those illegal immigrants who commit crimes should be automatically deported. If you want someone to blame look in the mirror and blame ourselves as americans, we hire these people to do the dirty work we do not want to do. I live in Nebraska where their a couple of slaughter houses around and those companies are to blame too. They would rather hire an illegal immigrant pay him $7 an hour to do the same or more amount of work, rather then hiring an American citizen for 12.50 an hr. These companies are in a bind right now being sued by some employee's because they have not been paid for their overtime in six months. Also it seems like every year the INS shows up to this companies and rounds up all these immigrants and deport them, and it seems like the next month the company just goes out and hires some more. My father when he was promoted in his line of work and moved to Texas he told me about some illegal immigrants who have been working with the company for years and they have not received a raise since they started which was minimum wage and they do the same amount of work as the American citizen making 18+ an hr. These people work in these conditions because they don't want to loose their job so they do not complain about their raises. But like I said this argument can go on forever. I thank my parents for coming here even if it was illegally and giving me a chance to become something of myself and they worked hard all their life.
 

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As a Mexican American I can tell you they pay taxes whether you believe it or not. A few percentage of Latinos get paid under the table. Most illegal Latinos obtain jobs by using false documentation and thus every time they get paid just like me and you, taxes are deducted. They also buy homes or rent an apartment taxes are also included, they buy vehicles taxes included, and they also buy consumer products like you and me and guess what taxes also included. I feel very disrespected when you said Mexicans waste their money away on food and alcohol. Their are plenty of mexicans who work to put their kids through college, because let me tell you something just like their is drunk and drug addicted Mexicans their are more Americans with the same problems. I am not saying that Latinos are all good because their are a few bad apples that ruin the bunch and give us a bad name. Just like their is so called dirty mexicans their are a bunch of white trash people like my neighbors. This argument can go on for ever and we will get nowhere, I do agree that those illegal immigrants who commit crimes should be automatically deported. If you want someone to blame look in the mirror and blame ourselves as americans, we hire these people to do the dirty work we do not want to do. I live in Nebraska where their a couple of slaughter houses around and those companies are to blame too. They would rather hire an illegal immigrant pay him $7 an hour to do the same or more amount of work, rather then hiring an American citizen for 12.50 an hr. These companies are in a bind right now being sued by some employee's because they have not been paid for their overtime in six months. Also it seems like every year the INS shows up to this companies and rounds up all these immigrants and deport them, and it seems like the next month the company just goes out and hires some more. My father when he was promoted in his line of work and moved to Texas he told me about some illegal immigrants who have been working with the company for years and they have not received a raise since they started which was minimum wage and they do the same amount of work as the American citizen making 18+ an hr. These people work in these conditions because they don't want to loose their job so they do not complain about their raises. But like I said this argument can go on forever. I thank my parents for coming here even if it was illegally and giving me a chance to become something of myself and they worked hard all their life.
for one, I'm assuming you are legal and paid your fair share so im glad you are a true American. but, do consider that you live in Nebraska, while i live in LA. so perhaps what you are seeing is very different than what i am seeing.

here having a Mexican family moved in to a neighborhood around here is usually not a good thing. they will have 30 people lived in a 3 bedroom house, it will be noisy from dusk till dawn. their kids will create havoc on other people's properties. it brings down the property values. the worst of all, they get their identities by stealing SSN from other people in the neighborhood. its a real mess. yes they do paid sales tax when they buy the car, but they usually dont register that car, nor do they buy insurance. if they hit you, you are SOL. they refuse to speak English, they harass just about every girl that walked by because of their culture... the list goes on and on.

the list i just provide is some stuff that is hard to swallow, but its happening here and now. if more are like you and your family, Immigration wont be an issue.

just to be clear, I do have plenty of borwn friends, and i have no problem with peoples from the south of the border. i understand that not all are like what i've discribe, but there are enough of them that are like that to cause a serious problem.
 

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If the new Health Care bill is passed, everybody except for non-residents will be taxed, but, being a good humanitarian nation, we will not be denying non-residents health services when they are invading the country :icon_lol: I love paying for other peoples misfortune!

Page 170 of the new bill: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes.
The bill specifies that the mandates and tax penalties do not apply to individual who is a non-resident alien.
 

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If the new Health Care bill is passed, everybody except for non-residents will be taxed, but, being a good humanitarian nation, we will not be denying non-residents health services when they are invading the country :icon_lol: I love paying for other peoples misfortune!

Page 170 of the new bill: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes.
The bill specifies that the mandates and tax penalties do not apply to individual who is a non-resident alien.
Why not start a health care thread? I love that so many Americans are getting involved/interested and are really passionate about this health care debate. But there's no need to jack someone elses thread... that's un-American. :icon_lol:
 

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Why not start a health care thread? I love that so many Americans are getting involved/interested and are really passionate about this health care debate. But there's no need to jack someone elses thread... that's un-American. :icon_lol:
My post was also associated with immigration in regards to them, as usual, being able to take advantage of services that we pay taxes for. Don't have another hissy fit pbeaul :icon_lol:
 

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My post was also associated with immigration in regards to them, as usual, being able to take advantage of services that we pay taxes for. Don't have another hissy fit pbeaul :icon_lol:
Haha, I was mostly kidding around. I do think you should start a health care thread though...

Another hissy fit? That implies that I had one to begin with I don't remember that... :book1:
 

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I think people that worry about immigrants should just focus on their own lives. They really don't make that big of a differnece in the country.
 

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Has it occurred to anyone else that America has become a hypocritical powerhouse where immigration is concerned?

I'm thinkin specifically of Mexicans hopping the border and entering the Southwest states illegally. Yes, I understand that many of them are given medical attention, welfare, etc, at American citizen taxpayers' expense. I'm not saying that's right or okay, by any means. I'm not incredibly well-informed regarding any political topic, and I won't pretend to be. But here in Arizona, some (I'm not sure if its a majority or a minority) of those illegals are returned to Mexico when caught. No, just to be clear, I don't have a problem with enforcing our immigration policy; in fact, I think its ridiculous that any illegals are allowed to stay. The law is the law, and whether I think its right or not, I want it to be enforced, because when you have a government who claims to stand for something, but turns and looks away when its policies are being broken, you end up with a country divided on itself, and that country will have begun it's downward spiral to destruction. My problem is with the policy itself.

When our country was formed, our policies and constitution were created in a way no other country had done so before. Our country was created by people who fled their governments because they were displeased with how they were ran, they wanted more rights in certain areas, etc. But now, America turns away people who seek exactly what we desired when we came here looking for freedom. And here's the problem with that. The very fact that we turn people away who are seeking asylum, or just a better way of life here in America, creates an elitist attitude among our citizens. The problem with that elitist attitude is that it breeds hate, contempt, and a misguided sense of power compared to other people ...which is clearly a mindset that opposes the ideals our country was built on from the ground up - that all men are created equal, and all men deserve the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. (Quote by Thomas Jefferson, who owned hundreds of slaves, but allegedly treated them well, so its okay...)

If you don't see the hypocrisy and downright stupidity that this country now thrives on, we, as a country and a people slowly being stripped of the freedoms you believe you have simply because you're "American", have an immense problem coming our way. You know what it means to be American? It means nothing. It's a self-imposed title, and a self-imposed title comes with zero credibility, and zero authority.

there is a huge difference between the immigrants we had as a fledgling country vs what we have no, perhaps part of it is due to the laws we have in place, perhaps not

But when we were starting, and immigrants were coming in, they were not a burden to the country, rather they were a massive help to the country for the most part.

When we were starting out, we didn't have the jail system we have now, we didn't have the medical system we have now

as far as the "majority" of illegal immigrants getting deported, that's no so true.

MCSO (Maricopa County Sherrifs Office) has a very hard time getting ICE to come out and deport people, this is why Sherrif Joe Arpio and the Government are not getting along, they refuse to help him do his job, and he presses buttons to get their attention.

As far as people wanting to come here to better them selves, that's fine, but there is now a proper way to do it, and its not just run across the boarder, steal some ones identity so you don't get deported, work (ok i give them that, MOST, work), and not pay taxes, because, well, you cant, you have stolen some ones identity, and then based on the stolen identity claim government aid.
 

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I think people that worry about immigrants should just focus on their own lives. They really don't make that big of a differnece in the country.
And i take it your not from a state that is heavily affected by imigration.

When i goto my local walmart, i now have to read 2 different signs, Spanish, and English

and Illegal Immigrants, do ad millions, if not billions of dollars onto the health care / criminal system that we as citizens have to pick up.
 

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yes they do paid sales tax when they buy the car, but they usually dont register that car, nor do they buy insurance. if they hit you, you are SOL.
:+1: for this ... this is my number one fear, getting splattered by an undocumented person, and here in PHX Arizona, thats a good probability, i know well over 20 people who have been involved in some sort of vehicle accident with an illegal, uninsured, from parkinglot paint scrapes, to fatality hit and runs.
 

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My personal opinion.................

We have limits on how many immigrants are allowed in the country every year. It is based on their native land. We have to have limits or else we will be overwhelmed with housing issues, jobs, and food. Which we can see in any big city that has an excess of people creating a huge demand on a system that cannot meet it with the current tax base. Take a look at your schools. Too many students and not enough teachers. I have not been to college but I have been to every continent. We definately have it pretty nice compared to the rest. But as mentioned above, the Romans had it under control for a few hundred years and then got too big to manage. History does repeat itself. Just my opinion.
 

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the real issue at hand is not so much of the immigrants, but rather the processes of absorbing them into the american society. when you look back into history, they said that America is a big cultural melting pot. as a result, regardless of your native culture, once you set foot in America, you are now an American. as an american in the pass, you and every other native born american are all working toward a common goal; making America better. however, with the recent individualism movement of keeping your own native culture while under the grand american culture simply doesn't work. you cannot fuse the two or more distinctly different culture value systems and expect the people to strive toward a common goal. as a result, this individualism created a division among people; you vs them instead of us as one single entity.

IMO the real fix of the current immigration issue should not be focusing on how to keep them out, but rather how to integrate them effortlessly into one american culture so they can be come one of us.
 

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I think people that worry about immigrants should just focus on their own lives. They really don't make that big of a differnece in the country.
You can argue the issue on either the positive... contribution side, doing jobs others won't, cheaper labor, filling a need... or you can argue the issue on the negetive... cost to us tax payers, free ride, taking american jobs side...

BUT YOU CAN"T BEGIN TO THINK THEY DON'T MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE IN THE COUNTRY!!!!!

It's scary to even think that someone thinks that they don't make that big a difference.
 

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You know what it means to be American? It means nothing. It's a self-imposed title, and a self-imposed title comes with zero credibility, and zero authority.
That's not true. And you saying that demonstrates a great point. We have diluted the meaning of 'American' over the last hundred years or so with out slide toward the liberal left. 'American' used to mean that you were a member of a mixed society of people, united under a common flag, commonly supporting a democratic, capitalistic society. When we started using words like 'African American', 'Mexican American', 'Chinese American' etc... We started breaking our united society apart into fragments of people, which is exactly the opposite of the idea that brought the pilgrims here to begin with. Its the self imposed fragmentation of our society that has stolen some of our power as a 'united' United States.

I feel that I should briefly state that this is exactly what the democratic leadership wants. A bunch of disconnected, unstable fragmented groups of people, who can neither stand on their own or understand that they can unite with other groups and stand together. The result is that those groups all lean on the government. We have been effectively castrated by this agenda.
 

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Drink. Duh!
 
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