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I started on a scooter then on a 125 then a 250 then a 500 then a 600 then a 750 then 1k... Not!

while a 600rr isnt a beginner bike it surely is the easiest to ride on. I had an 06 600rr for 4 yrs before buying my rsv1000 then the R1. A 250 would inly be good as track whore and nothing else imho

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I agree that the first bike you ever ride should not be a 600. With experience starting with Mini Trail 50's, then 70's and 90's I learned the basics of control before getting on a bike on tarmac.

Then went straight to riding my dad's 1100 Goldwing. That was a mistake. After sliding that down the street it was off to the MSF class.

Came out of that with the right mindset of tarmac riding and have been riding my RR since. 3k miles and still no problems. Not even a situation that worried me since caution is my main ride style.
 

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That's the best way to stay out of trouble on any bike. Know you limits and ride within them at all times and ride to the conditions. Also be sensible about your surroundings ie other road users, road surface, visibility etc.

Follow that and within reason it doesn't matter what you ride. If you hammer into a blind corner at 60mph on the limit of your ability for example and if doesn't matter if you're riding a 125 or a Panigale, you're likely to come off if anything goes wrong, whether its your fault or someone else's.


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That's the best way to stay out of trouble on any bike. Know you limits and ride within them at all times and ride to the conditions. Also be sensible about your surroundings ie other road users, road surface, visibility etc.

Follow that and within reason it doesn't matter what you ride. If you hammer into a blind corner at 60mph on the limit of your ability for example and if doesn't matter if you're riding a 125 or a Panigale, you're likely to come off if anything goes wrong, whether its your fault or someone else's.


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Where your argument falls flat (as well as a lot if others in this thread) is the difference between panicking and grabbing wide open throttle on a 125cc bike which will basically do nothing and accidentally doing that on an FI SS 600 is that the 600cc bike will go forward. Quickly. And stop. Quickly. Usually into a hard, immovable object.

Why do pilots learn to fly small Cessna's before they are unleashed in a jet? Because controlling something smaller, lighter and less prone to unexpected movements with little missteps is a much preferred way to actually learn to long term CONTROL a vehicle and learn what to expect before excessive power becomes another factor to have to overcome while learning. Taking that one possible fear out of the equation is huge.

I'd bet 99% of the people on here if they saw a 16 yo kid who literally got their license that day get handed the keys to daddy's new Shelby GT would say that's a bad idea. Why? It's all the same theory as a SS as your first bike: it starts, stops, runs like any car and its all about throttle control, right? You know, damn the parking dings, the first fender bender you have, the first time to try to park in a tight spot; all the **** you go through your first year of learning to drive.

Yeah driving moms old Cavalier sucked, right? But we beat the piss out of it and learned so after we got that out of our system we bought what we wanted and knew what to do.

And were better off for it. In my opinion.

Mike
 

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Where your argument falls flat (as well as a lot if others in this thread) is the difference between panicking and grabbing wide open throttle on a 125cc bike which will basically do nothing and accidentally doing that on an FI SS 600 is that the 600cc bike will go forward. Quickly. And stop. Quickly. Usually into a hard, immovable object.

Why do pilots learn to fly small Cessna's before they are unleashed in a jet? Because controlling something smaller, lighter and less prone to unexpected movements with little missteps is a much preferred way to actually learn to long term CONTROL a vehicle and learn what to expect before excessive power becomes another factor to have to overcome while learning. Taking that one possible fear out of the equation is huge.

I'd bet 99% of the people on here if they saw a 16 yo kid who literally got their license that day get handed the keys to daddy's new Shelby GT would say that's a bad idea. Why? It's all the same theory as a SS as your first bike: it starts, stops, runs like any car and its all about throttle control, right? You know, damn the parking dings, the first fender bender you have, the first time to try to park in a tight spot; all the **** you go through your first year of learning to drive.

Yeah driving moms old Cavalier sucked, right? But we beat the piss out of it and learned so after we got that out of our system we bought what we wanted and knew what to do.

And were better off for it. In my opinion.

Mike

The difference between learning to ride a bike and learning to drive a car (usually) is that you already know the rules of the road etc. I don't think that's a fair comparison. Some people just aren't meant to ride. If you panic and accelerate, probably not meant to ride anything. Take the msf and find out there

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Same can be said of a lot of car drivers :thumbup:
 

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Mike that was a fair way to out it in perspective. However there are others that feel fine jumping on that 600 first off. Forget honing your skills and learning maneuverability and awareness on a reasonable bike. Just go for the gusto.

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Where your argument falls flat (as well as a lot if others in this thread) is the difference between panicking and grabbing wide open throttle on a 125cc bike which will basically do nothing and accidentally doing that on an FI SS 600 is that the 600cc bike will go forward. Quickly. And stop. Quickly. Usually into a hard, immovable object.

Why do pilots learn to fly small Cessna's before they are unleashed in a jet? Because controlling something smaller, lighter and less prone to unexpected movements with little missteps is a much preferred way to actually learn to long term CONTROL a vehicle and learn what to expect before excessive power becomes another factor to have to overcome while learning. Taking that one possible fear out of the equation is huge.

I'd bet 99% of the people on here if they saw a 16 yo kid who literally got their license that day get handed the keys to daddy's new Shelby GT would say that's a bad idea. Why? It's all the same theory as a SS as your first bike: it starts, stops, runs like any car and its all about throttle control, right? You know, damn the parking dings, the first fender bender you have, the first time to try to park in a tight spot; all the **** you go through your first year of learning to drive.

Yeah driving moms old Cavalier sucked, right? But we beat the piss out of it and learned so after we got that out of our system we bought what we wanted and knew what to do.

And were better off for it. In my opinion.

Mike
Personally (I know everyone is different) the last thing that my brain did was learning, and the last thing it does now, is the situation of "panicking and grabbing wide open throttle" as you put it. Maybe that's just me though. I guess that having the calmness of mind not to do that is a big factor of being ready to ride a SS bike, that's what I was getting at when I said:

Know your limits and ride within them at all times
But then I also respectably disagree with what you say about driving. I was driving a friend's Ferrari flat out around a race track 5 days after passing my driving test and didn't kill myself. But then I've also never had any of "the parking dings, the first fender bender you have, the first time to try to park in a tight spot; all the **** you go through your first year of learning to drive" that you mention. Maybe I've just been lucky with everything I've driven and ridden every day for the 7 years though.

Again, everyone is different and therefore has a different learning rate. I'm not saying that you're wrong or that everyone should start on something powerful, just that everyone learns at their own rate and that if you feel ready for it and are sensible in your approach, then there is no reason why it should be a disastrous experience.


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If you had done the course with an RR, you would have wished you had a 250 instead.


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The MSF Beginner Rider Course. That's exactly what I'm talking about. We never went very fast with a lot of stop and go, which would not have been very enjoyable on the RR, or any SS. These bikes aren't the most nimble for slow speed. It'd probably be like taking a Veyron to an AutoX.


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Heck yeah I am very glad I didn't take the course on a 600rr cause it would have scared the living daylights out of me with it's jumpy first gear. I am sure, for me at least, it would still have been enjoyable once I figured out what i was doing but hell, there is a good reason why you learn on a 250.

As far as a 600 not being nimble....it is all about the skills of the rider:

 

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The difference between learning to ride a bike and learning to drive a car (usually) is that you already know the rules of the road etc. I don't think that's a fair comparison. Some people just aren't meant to ride. If you panic and accelerate, probably not meant to ride anything. Take the msf and find out there

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I completely respect what you're saying but the point of my post was not rules of the road but simply the need to learn skills to properly handle a motorcycle by experience. I completely agree some are not meant to ride, but in teaching my 42 (yes, 42) year old fiancee to drive I am finding that there have been times she has hit the gas instead of the brake. It happens, I simply used that as an example but there are hundreds of other things someone may do and it would be far easier to control on a smaller bike.

In one of my local forums in the last 2 or 3 weeks 3 guys have gone down on group rides because they panicked and hit the rear brake; in both instances others before and after them stopped without issue, they all realized what they did but still did it. I do not want this to turn into a rear brake arguement, but my opinion is if those riders had LEARNED the skills on smaller bikes for a few years (or my personal favorite, dirt riding) these lapses of skills would not have happened.

Mike that was a fair way to out it in perspective. However there are others that feel fine jumping on that 600 first off. Forget honing your skills and learning maneuverability and awareness on a reasonable bike. Just go for the gusto.

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While SOME people can ride without incident and SOME poeple have no problems getting on a Hayabusa and going right away just like some people can pick up a guitar and play without ever having a lesson yet SOME that play for 50 years take lessons now and again, MOST need to check their ego at the door and start small. What's good for one, isn't always good for another and the vast majority of riders would benifit from a couple years on a smaller bike to actually LEARN the skills instead of being another moving road block. To "Just go for the gusto" as you put it may have worked for you, but I bet had you started on a 250 you'd have had a far quicker and safer learning curve. It won't hurt is my point or else why would MSF use these small bikes for learners and not just readily available 600's?


Personally (I know everyone is different) the last thing that my brain did was learning, and the last thing it does now, is the situation of "panicking and grabbing wide open throttle" as you put it. Maybe that's just me though. I guess that having the calmness of mind not to do that is a big factor of being ready to ride a SS bike, that's what I was getting at when I said:

But then I also respectably disagree with what you say about driving. I was driving a friend's Ferrari flat out around a race track 5 days after passing my driving test and didn't kill myself. But then I've also never had any of "the parking dings, the first fender bender you have, the first time to try to park in a tight spot; all the **** you go through your first year of learning to drive" that you mention. Maybe I've just been lucky with everything I've driven and ridden every day for the 7 years though.

Again, everyone is different and therefore has a different learning rate. I'm not saying that you're wrong or that everyone should start on something powerful, just that everyone learns at their own rate and that if you feel ready for it and are sensible in your approach, then there is no reason why it should be a disastrous experience.


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I repect your opinion as well, but what is your suggestioin for determining who should or shouldn't handle be able to have a bigger bike as a first one, a conversation with them? A forum post? Maybe a written test? As you stated there should be no reason it WILL be a disaster, but would it have killed you to have not started on 600? I see your point but as much as starting on a SS worked for you, how many friends would you have trusted to go balls out in a Ferrari on a track 5 days after they got their license if it was your personal car they were driving? I had no parking dings or issues either, but I still wouldn't ever suggest anyone getting a new Vette for a first car, would you?

I'm not saying your wrong and I'm right, just saying there may be some who would be fine, but talk to a group of old bikers and the vast majority of them started on Honda 50's, CT90's and XR75's. Want to be a lifelong rider? Do it all, never stop learning, check your ego at the door and ride a 250 around for a year or so. Or spend a day sliding around a dirt track, running through the woods on an XR250 or riding the local fireroads on an XT250.

It's cool either way, I'm just saying my opinion. I am a HUGE proponant for tierd licensing as most people today don't have the self control to limit themselves or a parent who limited me even though I grew up on two wheels. Had I had a SS for a first bike I'm not sure I would still be here to bitch about this like some friends aren't.

Mike
 

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It pretty much boils down to your priorities. If you are more interested in straight line speed, then you'll get bored with a 250 real soon. If you like your ride how you like your women, with curves, then you will learn more and quicker on a 250. It is safer to find out that a 250 is not enough than to find out that a 600 is too much IMO.




As far as a 600 not being nimble....it is all about the skills of the rider:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxK2v4jCXwM
Sure, but that bike is not stock and the rider is not your average Joe.



I completely agree some are not meant to ride, but in teaching my 42 (yes, 42) year old fiancee to drive I am finding that there have been times she has hit the gas instead of the brake.
She must be Asian. :lol:
 

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I bet had you started on a 250 you'd have had a far quicker and safer learning curve. It won't hurt is my point or else why would MSF use these small bikes for learners and not just readily available 600's?
Well after only 6 months riding I passed my IAM course and was asked to come back and be one of their instructors so I'm just saying that while it is without doubt a steep learning curve to start on a 600, its more than possible to learn good skills without starting on a 250 first. Obviously some people will have their preferences and will always be better off starting on a smaller bike.

As for your point above, I don't know that much about the MSF course, but here in the UK, you do an initial CBT test on a 125 and then to get your full unrestricted licence, the second two tests (which involve both high speed avoidance, emergency stops and a 1-2 hour 1 on 1 on road examination) actually HAVE to be done on a 600 in order to be allowed anything over 46bhp.

That's how you show that you can handle riding one, by having to do multiple test proving ride one!



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Wow, I get to be sexist and racist all with one little statement. :lol:

My wife is Asian, my mom is Asian, all of my aunts are Asian, most of my female cousins are Asian, many of my and my wife's female friends are Asian. There are over 50 Asian women that I can think of right now, and I can count all of the ones who can drive decent with the fingers on one hand.


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Well after only 6 months riding I passed my IAM course and was asked to come back and be one of their instructors so I'm just saying that while it is without doubt a steep learning curve to start on a 600, its more than possible to learn good skills without starting on a 250 first. Obviously some people will have their preferences and will always be better off starting on a smaller bike.
This is always how this debate goes. A week of arguing before everyone involved concedes that in general, starting on a small displacement bike is wisest, after bragging that they starting on a 12-cylinder drag bike with their arm in a cast and were just fine.

As for your point above, I don't know that much about the MSF course, but here in the UK, you do an initial CBT test on a 125 and then to get your full unrestricted licence, the second two tests (which involve both high speed avoidance, emergency stops and a 1-2 hour 1 on 1 on road examination) actually HAVE to be done on a 600 in order to be allowed anything over 46bhp.

That's how you show that you can handle riding one, by having to do multiple test proving ride one!
Isn't the 2nd test typically 2 years after you start riding, mandatorily so if you're under 20-something? It's not like the UK is just throwing people on sportbikes after a week or so, which can happen in the US.
 

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This is always how this debate goes. A week of arguing before everyone involved concedes that in general, starting on a small displacement bike is wisest, after bragging that they starting on a 12-cylinder drag bike with their arm in a cast and were just fine.



Isn't the 2nd test typically 2 years after you start riding, mandatorily so if you're under 20-something? It's not like the UK is just throwing people on sportbikes after a week or so, which can happen in the US.
I have no intention of bragging, if that's how it comes across then I humbly apologise. Just stating my personal experience, just think that someone's mentality is a far more important factor to safe riding and rider development than what bike you start on.

You're right in the UK you do have to be older (24) to get your full licence, but once you are that age there's no time limit on how quickly you can take the separate tests. I did something called 'direct access' which is available to those old enough and is basically a week course that gets you from your very first bike right up to your full licence.


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I have no intention of bragging, if that's how it comes across then I humbly apologise. Just stating my personal experience, just think that someone's mentality is a far more important factor to safe riding and rider development than what bike you start on.

You're right in the UK you do have to be older (24) to get your full licence, but once you are that age there's no time limit on how quickly you can take the separate tests. I did something called 'direct access' which is available to those old enough and is basically a week course that gets you from your very first bike right up to your full licence.


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But you still needed to learn on a small bike, and do so with instructors to point out where you were going wrong the whole time.

The other option is that you figure it out for yourself but then your restricted no what bike you can ride right?

As far as I know in the states they have a graduated license scheme which requires you to have a learners permit before you can get an unrestricted license, but they don't restrict the kind of bike you can ride at all. So, you get your learners and then on your way home from the DMV you stop by the dealer and pick up a bussa or a RR... nothing illegal done at all.
 

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But you still needed to learn on a small bike, and do so with instructors to point out where you were going wrong the whole time.

The other option is that you figure it out for yourself but then your restricted no what bike you can ride right?

As far as I know in the states they have a graduated license scheme which requires you to have a learners permit before you can get an unrestricted license, but they don't restrict the kind of bike you can ride at all. So, you get your learners and then on your way home from the DMV you stop by the dealer and pick up a bussa or a RR... nothing illegal done at all.
A graduated scheme would make sense and would most likely lead to most riders being safer. Here in the UK you can get a small bike at 16, move up to a 500cc with no more than 46bhp at 20 or 21 I think it is and then up to an unrestricted licence at 24. That said there's no minimum time limit between these other than age, so if you're already 24 like I was then you can do the whole thing in one go. To me that supports my point about the maturity of the rider being a key factor. A 16 year old will generally be more at risk on a bike than a 24 yeah (generally! there are always very sensible 16 year olds and really stupid 30 year olds!) old with the same experience due to their relative levels of maturity common sense.

I see what you're saying about learning on a small bike. My initial training was on a 125 to learn basics of moving off , stopping and steering. But the whole day was less than 8 hours including lunch and the test at the end, so probably a max of 5 hours instruction and I've been on a 600 ever since after that.

I know that makes me somewhat biased towards it being fine to start riding on a 600, it's all I've known and my experience of riding and my path of skill improvement as a rider has been a really smooth and enjoyable one.


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A day? We do a two day course to get a learners license and that restricts you to bikes under a certain power (has to be under 150KW/tonne and 660cc - A 600RR is around 375kW/t and even the humble RGV250 is at around 390kW/t). After at least 6 months then you can do another one day course that gives you a probationary license, still restricted in choice of bike, and then again after a certain amount of time you can apply for an unrestricted license (they never say no when you apply though, it's just an excuse for more money)
 

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First bike was a 1984 cb450. Then a 2002 F4i. Can end some weight a d got a 2007 boulevard M50. Lost some weight and got a 2006 600RR :)

I can see how beginners wind up dead on these. Its not the power, its the fact that the smallest Input at the bar has great effect. Not very forgiving

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