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post #1 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-11-2009, 01:25 PM Thread Starter
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I thought this was interesting..

Anybody notice any similarities between the Obama health care logo and something from the past that I am sure many of you know...?

Coincidence?

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post #2 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-11-2009, 02:39 PM
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Resemblance is there, but what is the fascination with Hitler? I don't get it...

Anyways, the winged symbol is a Caduceus, an ancient Greek medical symbol that's been around a lot longer than the Nazi party/Hitler.
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post #3 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-11-2009, 03:12 PM Thread Starter
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Resemblance is there, but what is the fascination with Hitler? I don't get it...

Anyways, the winged symbol is a Caduceus, an ancient Greek medical symbol that's been around a lot longer than the Nazi party/Hitler.
Who is fascinated with Hitler?

I know what the symbol is, just thought it was funny that he managed to get the placement and outline right to make it so closely resemble the logo of one of the most horrific party's in history, and the swastika replaced by his little Obama circle logo.

I am sure it was not intended, just interesting resemblance. I would fire my marketing team if I was him.
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post #4 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-11-2009, 04:48 PM
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pbeaul reminds me of alex trebek.....and a C a n a d i a n.......WHAT IS?????????? I would love to see his screen shot, and how many search engines he has running at one time.

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post #5 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-11-2009, 04:58 PM
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Who is fascinated with Hitler?
All the people that keep trying to compare Obama to Hitler... this is like the 4th or 5th time I've seen him compared to Hitler in one way or another. I'll agree the resemblance is there but I'm sure one could find many things that resemble Nazi party emblems/symbols if they tried hard enough.

Moreover, who cares if it shares a likeness to that symbol? Aren't there like a billion more important things to be worrying about right now?
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post #6 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-11-2009, 05:11 PM
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LoL we continue with the Hitler comparisons. The day you hear Obama hating on another type of race then be worried... and come on we are in the U.S how ignorant can people be? How can Obama or any President have the influences of Hitler when in the U.S there are all types of races? What can you remove from the U.S? Hindus? Blacks? Whites? Come on. Or maybe conquer Mexico or Canada? Merge them like it was suggested? Last time I checked that was suggested before Obama so I do not know where people are trying to go with the whole Hitler comparos.

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post #7 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-11-2009, 05:56 PM Thread Starter
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You poor souls seem very confused, I was never comparing Obama to Hitler, I was only pointing out the fact that his new Logo looks like the Third Reich logo, which it obviously does.... So I assume you guys are pro-national healthcare, lol!
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post #8 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-11-2009, 06:24 PM
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Then the comment wasn't directed at you, but the people who say they have similarities all over the web.

Why wouldn't I be pro-national health care? The debt we are in will remain there because the way our fed system works, so why not go in debt for something that will help the people?

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post #9 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-11-2009, 06:34 PM Thread Starter
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Why wouldn't I be pro-national health care? The debt we are in will remain there because the way our fed system works, so why not go in debt for something that will help the people?
Weeelllll...... maybe because it goes against everything this country was founded on in the first place? The original idea was to not end up like Britain, you know, the country we escaped from and fought off in order to create the U.S.A. Now, letting the government take over the entire health care system in America sort of tells the people that have died for our flag "hey, we know its against the original idea of freedom in America, but its ok, its all in good nature."... this country is supposed to be run by the people and for the people.... not by the government and for the people.... of course, all the morons on welfare that can't take care of themselves because they are too stupid would completely disagree.
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post #10 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-11-2009, 06:34 PM
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You poor souls seem very confused, I was never comparing Obama to Hitler, I was only pointing out the fact that his new Logo looks like the Third Reich logo, which it obviously does.... So I assume you guys are pro-national healthcare, lol!
Are you insinuating that you came to that conclusion/observation on your own? If so, I apologize... I only came to the conclusion I did because you're re-posting something Rush Limbaugh and a few other right-wingers have been crowing about for the last few days.

If you're not part of the crowd that's once again comparing Obama to Hitler than I apologize for directing it towards you.

Pro-national healthcare? Who is talking about national healthcare? The Obama bill isn't even national healthcare, it's national heathcare insurance... which is a significant difference. But just like me, you're assumption is wrong. I'm not in favor of the proposals presented thus far... Only good thing that's going to come from this are a few additional consumer protections.
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post #11 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-11-2009, 06:48 PM
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Weeelllll...... maybe because it goes against everything this country was founded on in the first place? The original idea was to not end up like Britain, you know, the country we escaped from and fought off in order to create the U.S.A. Now, letting the government take over the entire health care system in America sort of tells the people that have died for our flag "hey, we know its against the original idea of freedom in America, but its ok, its all in good nature."... this country is supposed to be run by the people and for the people.... not by the government and for the people.... of course, all the morons on welfare that can't take care of themselves because they are too stupid would completely disagree.
Not looking to start an argument... but I'm curious what your answers are to the following questions.

- What do you think of the current system?
- If necessary, what would you do to change the current system?
- How would you rate it compared to other nations around the world?
- Do you feel that the insurance companies are doing a good job/serving the people?
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post #12 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-11-2009, 07:03 PM
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I think this obama and hitler / third reich thing have gone way too far. if you look hard enough, stretch your imaginations far enough, you can turn anything into anything in a cognitive perspective. however, in reality, the truth is not that complicated. this is like the conspiracy theory, religion, Armageddon predictions where if you run it through Occam's razor that you are exhausting your energy on something that exist only in your mind.

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post #13 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-11-2009, 07:10 PM Thread Starter
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Not looking to start an argument... but I'm curious what your answers are to the following questions.

- What do you think of the current system?
- If necessary, what would you do to change the current system?
- How would you rate it compared to other nations around the world?
- Do you feel that the insurance companies are doing a good job/serving the people?
-Considering I am an intelligent human being, who has the ability to succeed in life, I have never had a problem with the current health care system. If I was a useless waste of life on welfare, that might be a different story.
-What is making it necessary? Control?
-I use to live in Austria, I actually have a house in Innsbruck and I plan on moving back, I have experienced national health care, it sucks, its absolutely terrible... BUT.. just like the proposed plan here, you can of course *upgrade* to 'High End' health insurance... using money(like we do now), and then you will get good doctors... funny huh?
-I like how you say "the insurance company's".. the insurance company's are the people, privately owned organizations that provide a service to the people... ever wonder what made this country so great in the first place? Even you might be able to figure this one out.

And wu dot com, what Obama Hitler thing? I read about this stuff ALL the time and I am failing to see this huge pandemic of Obama/Hitler propaganda, I guess I am not looking hard enough? Anyways Wu, a 2 year old could make the connection between these two symbols, its not my fault Obama's marking team sucks with photoshop and history.

Any more?

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post #14 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-11-2009, 07:23 PM
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Weeelllll...... maybe because it goes against everything this country was founded on in the first place? The original idea was to not end up like Britain, you know, the country we escaped from and fought off in order to create the U.S.A. Now, letting the government take over the entire health care system in America sort of tells the people that have died for our flag "hey, we know its against the original idea of freedom in America, but its ok, its all in good nature."... this country is supposed to be run by the people and for the people.... not by the government and for the people.... of course, all the morons on welfare that can't take care of themselves because they are too stupid would completely disagree.
It is true that universal health care has more cons than pros, but the one reason why it has so many cons is because instability in other areas of the government. Things in the U.S are supposed to be simple yet politicians make it complicated by adding more and more and of course things that will benefit them. I like the idea of everybody being able to receive health care, but, because the way the government has been ran to this date, it is a very hard program to make successful. Its funny most people disagree with this program because they will pay for it with their taxes when there are other cons stronger.

I like the idea, but when you have politics in the equation unfortunately it makes it useless and bad. Its not because the people fighting for their freedom, that's another funny statement. People fighting now are fighting with the belief that they are fighting for their freedom when they are really fighting for the interests of certain powerful individuals. Terrorists? Come on when will people wake up. A very strong con in the universal health care is created by some of the freedom you speak of. Freedom in America has enabled corporations like fast food, cigarettes, etc to operate stronger than anything... meaning that the con of taxes becomes greater when we have to pay for those who are obese, have cancer because of cigarettes and who is to blame? The government or the people for this one? After all its the people's choice to decide whether to consume those products or not, yet corporations have the freedom to market as much as they want these malicious products.. but still... the choice is there.

In summary, universal health care is NOT a bad thing. It is just something that because the way things are today it will produce bad results. Thanks to the habits a lot of Americans have like consuming fast food, smoking, etc healthy people under this program will be forced to pay for those lazy bums when something goes wrong with them. Also thanks to this people money that goes toward other important programs like education have to be cut... So yea, its not because the fundamentals of these country what might make health insurance bad, but the habits and the way we live today.

Overall the people themselves are what make this program useless... and politics.

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post #15 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-11-2009, 07:24 PM
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Not looking to start an argument... but I'm curious what your answers are to the following questions.

- What do you think of the current system?
- If necessary, what would you do to change the current system?
- How would you rate it compared to other nations around the world?
- Do you feel that the insurance companies are doing a good job/serving the people?
i know this questions is not geared for me but here is my 2 cents (just like my unwanted 2 cents on every other topic)

- I think the current system is not perfect, but still practical for what it is. when the cost of health care have raised to a point where majority of the middle class American cant afford it, I will support obama 100%.
- Im a believer of the free market economic theory. so I wont change a thing at this point. however, this does not mean that i wont want to change things later.
- I have families around the world who have public health care. however, base on what i know, the current health care budget is bankrupt in Taiwan because people over used the system, meanwhile the medical system is so overcapacity where getting a good doctor is extremely difficult, in addition, the basic standers for new doctors have been lower to reflect the increasing demand. There have been no major medical achievements / break through coming out of Canada for decades now because the government have cap the margins, thus unable the costly new development to take place. the reason why america is at the front of medical developments is because this is a very lucrative market. if we take this incentive away, then what?
- there are always things that i can complain about the insurance companies. because we are paying for a derivatives that we may not use. however, the catch 22 is that the medical development companies uses this continue cash flow to fund their costly research for new medical break through that might save my life tomorrow. I would like to see a margin caped or a maximum % allowed to be made by insurance companies. as a result, we can cut down the profit of the middle man (insurance company) thus lowering the cost.

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post #16 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-11-2009, 07:25 PM
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post #17 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-11-2009, 07:43 PM
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Seriously, you got major attitude for no reason. I was simply curious... looking to understand your position. Sorry if that seems foreign to you.

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-What is making it necessary? Control?
Nothing is making it necessary, it was an optional question... if you felt that there was room for improvement. But you're obviously very polarized on the subject.

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-I like how you say "the insurance company's".. the insurance company's are the people, privately owned organizations that provide a service to the people... ever wonder what made this country so great in the first place? Even you might be able to figure this one out.
Wow, it was a question I think a chill pill is in order. Are they not insurance companies? Yes, they are private companies... but do you think they are serving the best interest of their customers "the people" or their share holders?

Either way, relax... never attacked anything you said. Was just curious how you perceived the situation because you're apparently vehemently opposed to the idea of national anything.

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i know this questions is not geared for me but here is my 2 cents (just like my unwanted 2 cents on every other topic)
Quite the contrary... I'm interested in what people think of the current system. I can't really understand why there's so much opposition to it.
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post #18 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-21-2009, 12:54 PM
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Quite the contrary... I'm interested in what people think of the current system. I can't really understand why there's so much opposition to it.
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman...shortage2.html

http://www.freedomslighthouse.com/20...ctor-says.html

http://purelypolitical.newsvine.com/...uicide-instead

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba596

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...-hospital.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...hospitals.html

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...cle2124936.ece

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washing...l-budget_N.htm

http://www.dailybreeze.com/business/ci_10978701

You can start with those. While I agree that no system is perfect, the most perfect system is that of a profit driven one, not one that the govt pays for. No govt system is EVER as efficient as the public sector version of it with 1 single exception. That is the military which Democrats in this country seem hellbent on destroying.

FedEx and UPS vs Post Office. FedEx can not opperate 2.8 billion in debt like the post office. Medicare/Medicaid vs private care. Govt has had its chance to show that it can balance a social budget with things like social security, Medicare/medicaid and the post office. It is trillions in debt because of mismanagment and robbing Peter to pay Paul. Single payer, socialized medicine, co-op, govt sponsered corporation for competition, whatever you want to call it is bad simply because the govt has no obligation to have a balanced budget. They dont go out of business when they run in the red. They just print more money or sell bonds. A private corp can only do this for so long before they are taken over or no one buys the debt.

My biggest issue is that I dont want the govt in my business. I believe the line that is used everytime a pro-life candidate is running is "My body, my choice" or something like that. I believe that slogan should hold true for EVERYONE at ALL TIMES! Not just for women.

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post #19 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-21-2009, 02:56 PM
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You can start with those. While I agree that no system is perfect, the most perfect system is that of a profit driven one, not one that the govt pays for. No govt system is EVER as efficient as the public sector version of it with 1 single exception. That is the military which Democrats in this country seem hellbent on destroying.
So there's only ONE exception, Only one? Public schools, Interstates and many other infrastructure projects don't count? Why are Americans so eager to spend/waste their money on military tech and fighting wars but completely against taking care of their own? Hellbent on destroying? You guys spend more on your defense budget than pretty much ALL other countries combined... You don't see anything wrong with that? Wouldn't it be better if some of that money ended up back in your pocket instead of Erik Prince's coffers?

Uhm, Public Sector = "the goberment" and you're not even close to correct in regards to efficiency. Private sectors introduce many kinds of inefficiencies. I'm generally very pro-business, but there are SOME things in life that don't need to turn a profit. It's one thing to provide a service and be compensated fairly for it, and it's a whole other thing to cut sick/critically ill patients loose to boost your bottom line.

I'm not saying that the US needs a single payer system or anything, there are MANY MANY examples of how to run a relatively successful health care system. Make no bones about it, the Canadian system isn't one of the best examples cause we have many things working against us (relative size of the country/population density, fact that we have to try and compete with the US system to keep doctors, poor economies of scale... etc.) But I'm extremely confident that 98-99% of Canadians would keep our current system over yours any day of the week. The fact is that the American system is broken, and if you think your system is anywhere close to "good" for the nation as a whole than you're seriously uneducated about the facts/reality of the situation.

The US is touted to have the "best" health care in the world, which is a half truth. Sure you have some of the best technology/doctors in the world, and some top notch clinics/hospitals... but overall your level/quality of care is not even close to the best in the world.

Many Americans have this false sense of self-sufficiency, they think that because they're not some dumb lazy bum and hold a decent job that they'll always be able to fend for themselves. The truth is that ANYONE can get sick or lose their job, and if your luck just so happens to run out and you get a shitty form of cancer (read: expensive to treat) your chances of losing everything you own in life or dieing because you can't afford it is VERY real.

Why is it that 50+% of bankruptcies in America are related to healthcare costs? Why is it that 80% of that 50+% are mostly hard working upper middle class WITH health insurance... yet still have to lose everything they own? Who ends up picking up the tab when they default on their bills?

The statistics are what the are... Americans spend WAY more (like 2x more) than any other country in the world and receive less in the end. You can cling to your pride and patriotism and try to defend your busted ass system all you like... but you're going to be in a world of hurt in 10 years when your country is going broke because no one can afford basic medical care.

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My biggest issue is that I dont want the govt in my business. I believe the line that is used everytime a pro-life candidate is running is "My body, my choice" or something like that. I believe that slogan should hold true for EVERYONE at ALL TIMES! Not just for women.
This might be a rhetorical question... but who do you think cares more for you/has your best interest in mind? The government, or some insurance company that only cares about it's bottom line? Regardless of which option you pick... you're going to have bureaucraps messing with your business and possibly your life... I'd personally prefer that the government be making those choices over some greedy/slimey schmuck that will try everything under the sun to drop my ass if I ever get sick.

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post #20 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-21-2009, 04:18 PM
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So there's only ONE exception, Only one? Public schools, Interstates and many other infrastructure projects don't count? Why are Americans so eager to spend/waste their money on military tech and fighting wars but completely against taking care of their own? Hellbent on destroying? You guys spend more on your defense budget than pretty much ALL other countries combined... You don't see anything wrong with that? Wouldn't it be better if some of that money ended up back in your pocket instead of Erik Prince's coffers?
Yup only one. Just the military. Private schools are far better than public. Why do you think poor people want school vouchers? So they can go to public school? Do you know how long the Second Ave subway line has been proposed in New York City? They just started work on it last year. The damn thing was proposed in the 1930s!!! As part of the original shovel ready projects. 70 years to build an undeground tunnel brought to you by the New York City govt. The time line for a local govt hiring a private company to repave a road is about 3 months shorter than having the local union guys do it. I would know. In the town next to mine they have been ripping up and widening a 3 mile, THREE MILES, section of road for about the past year and a half. Very efficient with their road building is the govt.

No I dont see anything wrong with spending money on defense. I dont see a problem with spending more on it than all other countries combined. Especially when its such a small % of our GDP. There are many other countries all around the world that spend more as a % of GDP than we do. And those are real numbers not a total dollar figure which is a poor comparison. Which is exactly why you want to cling to it. China, and the Middle East spend upwards of 5% of their GDP on military. The US spends far more on social services than it does on the Military. If I want money in my pocket I want it knowing that my friends and family serving in the military have the baddest most advanced pieces of equipment in the world. Id rather not hand out wasted money to social services which is nothing more than money for buying votes. Im not against taking care of my own, but then again Im not for taking care of my own. People should learn how to take of themselves. It is not my responsibility to finance your 8 kids. It is not my responsibility to finance your unemployment. Its not my responsibility to put a roof over your head or food on your table or to pay for your cancer treatment. Its your responsibility.

Quote:
Uhm, Public Sector = "the goberment" and you're not even close to correct in regards to efficiency. Private sectors introduce MANY kinds of inefficiencies. I'm generally very pro-business, but there are SOME things in life that don't need to turn a profit on. It's one thing to provide a service and be compensated fairly for it, and it's a whole other thing to cut sick/critically ill patients loose to boost your bottom line.
Oh you mean like Oregon when they cut the woman loose and pay for the suicide pills but not her cancer drugs? You mean that kind of compassion? That kind of cutting loose? Or perhaps you mean the cutting loose of I believe it was 5 or 6000 surgeries in your Canada because they cant be done and are then demmed not needed? That kind of cutting loose? Ironically she got the drugs for free from the big bad pharma company when they found about her story. They wouldnt be able to do that if they didnt make any money.
I guess your defintion of fairly compensated and mine are different. I look at profit after bills are paid, aka Net profit and in this argument yes the private sector is FAR more efficient than the public sector. To say otherwise and you are liar. Dont tell me you very pro-business because you arent. You are pro-business that you agree with. As for cutting loose. Your govt healthcare does more of that in a ass-backwards way than our profit system ever does. You have just been convinced that if the govt says no then thats it. Thats how they cut people loose. By never taking them in to begin with. I had to wait 2 days to get an MRI and that was because I couldnt go in the next day. You guys have to wait 6 months. The most ineffecient thing about the private sector is taxes. Take an economics class. Private sector can not afford to be inefficent. Only govt can.

Quote:
I'm not saying that the US needs a single payer system or anything, there are MANY MANY examples of how to run a relatively successful health care system.
Oh really? Like where? The US is the best one so far. Highest cancer survival, most new medical inovations, most new drugs... Im failing to see what other example you are talking about.

Ive noticed this about you... Im typing this part as I go back and reread my post before posting it so this is the last thing Im typing. Ive noticed that you like to spout off at the mouth and yet you offer not a single shred of evidence to prove your points. You just say whatever the f*ck you want and expect people to debate you on your terms and your accusations. Prove your statements. After this post I wont be responding to anything you say unless you offer PROOF of your statements. Ive countered every statement you have made that isnt some half-cocked nutjob theory you got from Michael Moore's Sicko with FACTS. Its obvious you dont read them.

Quote:
Make no bones about it, the Canadian system isn't one of the best examples cause we have many things working against us (relative size of the country/population density, fact that we have to try and compete with the US system to keep doctors, poor economies of scale... etc.) But I'm extremely confident that 98-99% of Canadians would keep our current system over yours any day of the week.
Really? You asked 100% of Canadians? All 33 million of them? You are confident? Well you just torpedoed any shot you have of being taken seriously because I found the answer you just made up.
http://www.correntewire.com/canadian...le_competition
A poll of a measly 1001 Candians found that just over 8 in 10 would keep it. There are 33 million of you and 1001 is not a fair representation. In fact it has a 3.1% margin of accuracy. Not to mention that the article in question provides no link to the actual study with no margin of ERROR or level of confidence to actually determine if this study and poll is representative of the whole. My guess is that its not. Any GOOD polling company makes sure to put these figures with the study because of how important they are. A polling company that has an agenda however... Will leave those out and just tought the numbers since thats all people look at to begin with. But Either way you are still off by 13%. In statistics we call it insignificant. Why dont you ask the people who USE the healthcare. Go to a hospital and ask those people who are sick if they would keep it. Asking the general healthy public is bull since they arent involved in the system. Ask the sick if they like it.

Quote:
The US is touted to have the "best" health care in the world, which is a half truth. Sure you have some of the best technology/doctors in the world, and some top notch clinics/hospitals... but overall your level/quality of care is not even close to the best in the world.
Thats why cancer survival rates are higher here than anywhere else in the world with social medicine right? Because our quality sucks and isnt as good as the rest of the world? Cancer is the best indicator because its people's biggest concern. It cant be "caught" its not a virus or an STD. Its something that just shows up and scares the **** out of people.
US vs Europe
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/561737
I already put this up but im putting again for the other people that can read. Obviously you cant because you make up BS accusations like our quality of care is lower than the rest of the world when you have no FACTS to back this up. I on the other hand do.
US vs Canada
http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba596

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post #21 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-21-2009, 04:18 PM
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Many Americans have this false sense of self-sufficiency, they think that because they're not some dumb lazy bum and hold a decent job that they'll always be able to fend for themselves. The truth is that ANYONE can get sick or lose their job, and if your luck just so happens to run out and you get a shitty form of cancer (read: expensive to treat) your chances of losing everything you own in life or dieing because you can't afford it is VERY real.
You guys dont even treat cancer and wouldnt be able to WITHOUT the US. WE do all the reasearch that we graciously give to you. With out dirty profits we reinvest it into R&D. Dirty dirty profits... Your statement is spoken like a true person who knows NOTHING about the US Healthcare system. And the what you do know you learned from Micahel Moore's Sicko movie. See we have this thing called COBRA which is an extention of your healthcare benifits that MUST be given to you if you pay for it which is a limited continuation of your old policy. You have 18 months in the state of CT to find a new job and its being expanded. At that point if I cant find a job, Ive already lost everything and Healthcare is the least of my worries. I guess for you, you would rather be homeless and be able to get healthcare. We also have a little thing called Medicare/Medicaid which is just like your Candian healthcare. Its bloated, over budget and offers no real treatment options unless you have a run of the mill broken arm or something easy to treat. God help you if you get cancer because just like in Canada you are finished.

Quote:
Why is it that 50+% of bankruptcies in America are related to healthcare costs? Why is it that 80% of that 50+% are mostly hard working upper middle class WITH health insurance... yet still have to lose everything they own? Who ends up picking up the tab when they default on their bills?
Nice lines of BS. I cant find this "claim" anywhere on the internet. Where did you get it? Show some freakin proof to back up your accusations!!! The short answer Im going to make up just like you make sh!t up is probably because they have to have the big house, the new BMW and a 75 inch HD plasma with a released yesterday PS3 and XBox360, while taking a ski vacation in Italy. They spend themselves into debt rather than save their money. Again, its not my problem. Learn to take care of your own. If these truely are "Upper Middle Class" as you claim they should be able to balance a budget and not over spend.

Quote:
The statistics are what the are... Americans spend WAY more (like 2x more) than any other country in the world and receive less in the end. You can cling to your pride and patriotism and try to defend your busted ass system all you like... but you're going to be in a world of hurt in 10 years when your country is going broke because no one can afford basic medical care.
Wont justify or answer your accusations till you show me some proof. Im tired of the phantom BS. I have seen none of the studies or reseach that back up your claims and you havent shown any to me. So I just assume they are made up. Prove it and Ill respond. Ive already posted that this is BS when I showed cancer survival rates.

Quote:
This might be a rhetorical question... but who do you think cares more for you/has your best interest in mind? The government, or some insurance company that only cares about it's bottom line? Regardless of which option you pick... you're going to have bureaucraps messing with your business and possibly your life... I'd personally prefer that the government be making those choices over some greedy/slimey schmuck that will try everything under the sun to drop my ass if I ever get sick.
I think the person that has my best intrest in mind is ME!!!! What a stupid f*cking question to justify a sh!tty healthcare system.
[Me mocking you in a whiney voice] Dont you think the govt has your best intrest in mind?[/Me mocking you in a whiney voice]
NO I DONT! THATS THE WHOLE POINT!!!Thats the whole debate! That I am smart enough to take care of myself. That I am smart enough to save my money for a rainy day. If you arent it is not my problem.

Now onto this little gem you typed here:
Quote:
The fact is that the American system is broken, and if you think your system is anywhere close to "good" for the nation as a whole than you're seriously uneducated about the facts/reality of the situation.
Says the guy who has to wait 6 months for an MRI, and has people coming to the US for surgeries the govt wont cover. No one is going to Canada for surgeries or healthcare coverage. The drugs you guys steal, and yes you steal them by saying to drug companies who have invested BILLIONS unless you sell at this price we will STEAL and VIOLATE international patent laws so we can have what we want. You guys are short doctors. Hospitals are filled and nurses are leaving. We have medical breakthroughs every day. It taks you 12 years to do it. We have the first heart, liver, kidney, lung, succesful hand and double hand transplants. I know this for a FACT. I have Canadian friends whose parents work in the healthcare industry up there and they say it sucks. End of story. Drs and nurses are over worked and underpaid.

Nice idea to say someone is uneducated to make a point. You sound just like Nancy, Harry and Barry. Insult those who disagree with you especially when they disprove your points. The American system is far from perfect, but it is far closer to perfection than your precious Canadian care system will ever be. Ive already proven that we have higher cancer survival rates, we have quicker more efficiant diagnocies so we can get to treating problems quicker and the cherry ono top is that there are no stories of people going to Canada or the UK or anywhere in Europe to get healthcare. Its the other way around. People are coming here to the US because we provide the best healthcare and yea you are going to pay for it, but apprently to some people in your country and around the world, the care given here in the US and their lives and health are PRICELESS!

"Oh and if you dare say that I dont know whats it like get a freakin clue! I date models and strippers. So dont tell me that I dont know whats its like!" - BDiddy
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post #22 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-21-2009, 07:26 PM
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*Golf clap* I'm genuinely impressed. I'll gladly backup my claims... going to take me a few, but I'll get back to you.
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post #23 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-21-2009, 10:19 PM
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I live twenty minutes from Canada and I see the Canadian license plates at the local hospital all the time. They come here and pay cash rather than wait until their health care is rationed out to them. Why not include how its illegal in Canada to try to pay cash to expedite medical services rather than wait in line for govt hand out.
You may be a proud, out spoken socialist, and thats cool, just please keep your opinion in Canada and dont come here for the exchange rates. I guess after you guys were forced to turn in your fire arms or face the penalty of imprisonment I guess key board rant is all you have left, so have fun with that , K.

Obama spent 20 years in a Black Nationalist church you say ..Balderdash !. I say racist. Many times in his own words he has issues with whites and the white blood in his veins.

His good friend Van Jones is a out spoken Black supremacist and Black Nationalist who now heads a govt funded group called "The Color of Change ".
You can keep your liberal head in the sand all you wish. But my eyes are wide open my friend. . Do your home work and look into the 1920 -30s German socialist movement that started with "stimulus" packages and bailouts that built the autobahn and founded Germany's govt run health care system.

Hitler was half Jewish, so we know how that turned out.
And before you start you typical liberal shout down BS with me, there is a difference between self awareness and racism . America was a singular beacon of light on this light on this filthy mud ball . No other country offered the freedom and opportunity we did foe nearly a decade.
Its not just Obama (corporate flesh sack ), our government is bending us all over and giving the entire rest of the world a shot at a good reaming at this point. Mainly due to pantie waisted pacifist that have been allowed to run things. It disgusts me.
How can any one run a country they have never truly served and fought for ?

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post #24 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-22-2009, 02:11 AM
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Originally Posted by JPRaceCraft View Post
I live twenty minutes from Canada and I see the Canadian license plates at the local hospital all the time. They come here and pay cash rather than wait until their health care is rationed out to them. Why not include how its illegal in Canada to try to pay cash to expedite medical services rather than wait in line for govt hand out.
You may be a proud, out spoken socialist, and thats cool, just please keep your opinion in Canada and dont come here for the exchange rates. I guess after you guys were forced to turn in your fire arms or face the penalty of imprisonment I guess key board rant is all you have left, so have fun with that , K.

Obama spent 20 years in a Black Nationalist church you say ..Balderdash !. I say racist. Many times in his own words he has issues with whites and the white blood in his veins.

His good friend Van Jones is a out spoken Black supremacist and Black Nationalist who now heads a govt funded group called "The Color of Change ".
You can keep your liberal head in the sand all you wish. But my eyes are wide open my friend. . Do your home work and look into the 1920 -30s German socialist movement that started with "stimulus" packages and bailouts that built the autobahn and founded Germany's govt run health care system.

Hitler was half Jewish, so we know how that turned out.
And before you start you typical liberal shout down BS with me, there is a difference between self awareness and racism . America was a singular beacon of light on this light on this filthy mud ball . No other country offered the freedom and opportunity we did foe nearly a decade.
Its not just Obama (corporate flesh sack ), our government is bending us all over and giving the entire rest of the world a shot at a good reaming at this point. Mainly due to pantie waisted pacifist that have been allowed to run things. It disgusts me.
How can any one run a country they have never truly served and fought for ?
Yawn. Where do I say I love Obama? Where do I say you need to adopt a socialist healthcare plan? Enough with the pathetic attacks... It's so damn lame. How about just keeping a level head and debating the issues? Why does everything have to be so adversarial... It's not like there's a single correct answer/solution... no one is ever going to be "right". Both sides have extremely valid points. The constant references to Hitler and the Nazi party is utterly retarded, whose only purpose is to evoke emotional responses. It does nothing more than make your arguments/opinions look batshit crazy to me.

You can toss around the term socialist all your like. I stated the obvious, your current system is broken for A LOT of people. I don't claim that the Canadian system is peachy/picture perfect... but overall we do take better care of our ENTIRE population. As evidenced by numerous global metrics (life expectancy, infant mortality rates, etc.) There are MANY things I would change with the Canadian system, and allowing privatization of many services (MRI, and other medical imagery, etc) is pretty damn high on my list.

You consistent insinuation that I'm a liberal/socialist because I feel that the American people are being raped and pillaged (as you eluded to) by corporations/government... that doesn't make me a liberal. Just because I don't agree with the current form of "capitalism" and the imaginary "free market" that supposedly exists in the health care industry doesn't make me a socialist. Do I think some services are more efficient if centralized at the government level... Yes, I do.

At no point did I say the US needs to latch on to a socialist health care plan... Only that the system needs reform because THE PEOPLE are getting the shaft. The current system is highly beneficial for 2 groups, insurance companies and wall street... Consumers are getting shafted left and right and it's only going to get worse because health care costs are spiraling out of control. Health care costs are growing MUCH faster than inflation/wages... It's only a matter of time before people can't afford it... It's just simple economics.

Don't worry BDiddy, I'm not ignoring/avoiding you. You've taken the time to thoroughly respond to me and I plan to do the same.
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post #25 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-23-2009, 08:58 AM
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First of all, I’m glad you posted your point of view, a touch hostile, but that’s fine… I’ll roll with it. In interest of brevity I’m going to concentrate on healthcare aspects you’ve identified and ignore most of the other stuff (such as military spending, and misc other things that I don’t feel belong is this retort… feel free to call me out on anything you feel I unjustly skipped if you so choose.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDiddy View Post
Oh you mean like Oregon when they cut the woman loose and pay for the suicide pills but not her cancer drugs? You mean that kind of compassion? That kind of cutting loose? Or perhaps you mean the cutting loose of I believe it was 5 or 6000 surgeries in your Canada because they cant be done and are then demmed not needed? That kind of cutting loose? Ironically she got the drugs for free from the big bad pharma company when they found about her story. They wouldnt be able to do that if they didnt make any money.
Listen, for every government suicide/death panel incident you find… I can find the same or more incidents where patients were denied care from their insurance companies and actually died. There are so many documented cases of people that reached their quotas and were subsequently dropped from coverage for malicious/BS reasons (like not disclosing a case of acne or something retarded.) Since you quoted Sicko so many times I believe you’re already familiar with a handful of cases… I’ll leave it at that.

No one is going to win this battle, I personally would rather put my faith in government doing the right thing over a company that needs to turn a profit… but we can agree to disagree in regards to who we feel would best represent our collective interests. As for big pharma stepping in to save the day it’s nothing more than a perfect moral/PR victory for them… Kudos to them for stepping up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDiddy View Post
I guess your defintion of fairly compensated and mine are different. I look at profit after bills are paid, aka Net profit and in this argument yes the private sector is FAR more efficient than the public sector. To say otherwise and you are liar. Dont tell me you very pro-business because you arent. You are pro-business that you agree with. As for cutting loose. Your govt healthcare does more of that in a ass-backwards way than our profit system ever does. You have just been convinced that if the govt says no then thats it. Thats how they cut people loose. By never taking them in to begin with. I had to wait 2 days to get an MRI and that was because I couldnt go in the next day. You guys have to wait 6 months. The most ineffecient thing about the private sector is taxes. Take an economics class. Private sector can not afford to be inefficent. Only govt can.
Indeed they are. I personally don’t feel that peoples’ lives should have a price tag on them… while I realize this is a bit idealistic but morally I think it’s the right thing to do. Unfortunately, this is in direct conflict with the priorities of a business. Like you said, a government can “afford” to run in the red… businesses can’t. Businesses have to make tough choices (like dropping the sick/costly, denying coverage etc.) otherwise people on Wall Street get pissed at them. Their goal is not to achieve productive, healthy and vibrant societies… but tangible and increasing profits every quarter.
Governments don’t have to make those life/death decisions (yea, I know… I read your article about the Oregon lady.) But generally speaking governments that do value their citizens try to offer the best possible care available regardless of how sick the person is or what color their skin is or how big their bank account is.

I can’t and won’t deny that there are several convenient aspects of the US healthcare system… the ones that make you feel so proud of your system that you put a cherry on top. There’s no question that if you have money the American system is bar none. Yup, I said it! You guys have the BEST HEALTH CARE IN THE WORLD if money is no object. But that sadly isn’t the case for most Americans.
As for efficiencies, Canadians spend ½ as much money and relatively speaking we get better overall care for our dollars. A second point to make is that administrative costs for the US healthcare system (billing, marketing, etc) is roughly 31% of total health care costs while its somewhere around 17% in Canada… again close to half. So the notion privatization is always more effective/efficient is wrong. Yea! Facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDiddy View Post
Oh really? Like where? The US is the best one so far. Highest cancer survival, most new medical inovations, most new drugs... Im failing to see what other example you are talking about.
So according to you, the best indicator (and only apparently) is how good your cancer survival rates? There are many examples of good healthcare systems, such as France, Netherlands, Switzerland, etc all of which are arguably less “socialized” than the Canadian and British system and utilize more privatization. While I’m not an expert on their system the Netherlands has a completely private health insurance industry and it probably resembles the US system the most. The major exception being that the government determines a basic set of rules and guidelines that all insurance companies have to adhere to. Appart from those basic rules… the Dutch are free to shop around for a plan on their liking (basic stuff, or a high end premium plan that covers everything under the sun.) I also believe that Switzerland uses a fairly similar approach. France on the other hand provides a basic level of care (like medicare) to the entire population, and if you want you can optionally purchase supplemental healthcare insurance.

The major difference is that the US is the ONLY system in the world that is market driven, human lives/treatment are viewed as a commodity. Healthcare in the US is treated like a business, and doesn’t necessarily guaranty that those that actually need care get anything… only that those who can afford it do get it. Sure you can get a MRI done in a day… but did you really need it? Are you simply getting one because you can? Did someone else need one but couldn’t afford it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDiddy View Post
Ive noticed this about you... Im typing this part as I go back and reread my post before posting it so this is the last thing Im typing. Ive noticed that you like to spout off at the mouth and yet you offer not a single shred of evidence to prove your points. You just say whatever the f*ck you want and expect people to debate you on your terms and your accusations. Prove your statements. After this post I wont be responding to anything you say unless you offer PROOF of your statements. Ive countered every statement you have made that isnt some half-cocked nutjob theory you got from Michael Moore's Sicko with FACTS. Its obvious you dont read them.
Sorry, this is an internet forum… not some peer reviewed paper. Unlike you, I don’t have an entire industry spending millions to push out propaganda pieces and biased reports of healthcare systems around the globe. I’m sure you found 99% of those links on some right wing blog/forum and you feel like a badass now that you think you’ve given me a smack down. It’s quite clear that you have a differing opinion than I do, that doesn’t make yours any more credible than mine… and your “facts” largely come from right-wing think tanks… Not to saying that they lie, but don’t kid yourself and think they don’t have a vested interest in keeping sh*t just the way it is. 1/6 of the entire US economy revolves around healthcare spending… trillions of dollars each year.

I’m also curious what half-cocked nut-job theories I provided? Since you appeared to have touched on almost everything I said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDiddy View Post
Really? You asked 100% of Canadians? All 33 million of them? You are confident? Well you just torpedoed any shot you have of being taken seriously because I found the answer you just made up.
http://www.correntewire.com/canadian...le_competition
A poll of a measly 1001 Candians found that just over 8 in 10 would keep it. There are 33 million of you and 1001 is not a fair representation. In fact it has a 3.1% margin of accuracy. Not to mention that the article in question provides no link to the actual study with no margin of ERROR or level of confidence to actually determine if this study and poll is representative of the whole. My guess is that its not. Any GOOD polling company makes sure to put these figures with the study because of how important they are. A polling company that has an agenda however... Will leave those out and just tought the numbers since thats all people look at to begin with. But Either way you are still off by 13%. In statistics we call it insignificant. Why dont you ask the people who USE the healthcare. Go to a hospital and ask those people who are sick if they would keep it. Asking the general healthy public is bull since they arent involved in the system. Ask the sick if they like it.
You caught me! I made up a statistic… The truth is, I don’t know the actual number of people that would keep the Canadian system. Congrats on calling me out, I deserve that. But from my experience with the system and the general opinions of the system I still strongly feel that an overwhelming number of Canadians wouldn’t give up their system for the American system… but that’s still a moot point. Pbeaul: 0 You: 1

As for asking “the sick if they like it”, our patient satisfaction (in 2005) was 85% which isn’t too shabby.

Last edited by pbeaul; 08-23-2009 at 09:29 AM.
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post #26 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-23-2009, 09:03 AM
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Thats why cancer survival rates are higher here than anywhere else in the world with social medicine right? Because our quality sucks and isnt as good as the rest of the world? Cancer is the best indicator because its people's biggest concern. It cant be "caught" its not a virus or an STD. Its something that just shows up and scares the **** out of people.
US vs Europe
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/561737
I already put this up but im putting again for the other people that can read. Obviously you cant because you make up BS accusations like our quality of care is lower than the rest of the world when you have no FACTS to back this up. I on the other hand do.
US vs Canada
http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba596
You’re entirely correct that US leads the way in cancer detection/treatment... in the rich and whites. Conveniently, the NCPA neglected to mention that…Possibly because it didn’t fit with their agenda? If you look up their referenced sources Mirror, Mirror on the Wall: An International Update on the Comparative Performance of American Health Care that they conveniently distort the truth. And they certainly don’t convey what the report is actually trying to say.

If you look at that report you’ll note that they say this about the American healthcare system:
Quote:
Among the six nations studied—Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States—the U.S. ranks last, as it did in the 2006 and 2004 editions of Mirror, Mirror. Most troubling, the U.S. fails to achieve better health outcomes than the other countries, and as shown in the earlier editions, the U.S. is last on dimensions of access, patient safety, efficiency, and equity. The 2007 edition includes data from the six countries and incorporates patients' and physicians' survey results on care experiences and ratings on various dimensions of care.
If you’re interested in their latest publication (2008) which tries to quantify/measure the quality of the American healthcare system on more than a cancer metric that you so desperately like to cling to.

If cancer detection was the only thing that determined quality of care, you’re correct the US system would technically be considered the best system in the world… (at least for the rich/white Americans… blacks would be better off in Canada.) That said, I don’t wish to denigrate the results of cancer survival in the US, but you might be curious to know that Canada is doing MUCH better on cancer than the US likes to give them credit for.

Most recent Canadian Cancer statistics, section 7.1 which indicate that we’ve made progress (since 2004, which is what you quoted) we now have an average of 62% survival rate over 5 year period.

If you’d like to read a relatively new and comprehensive study on how the US, Canada and like 17 other countries stack up in regards to cancer treatments here is the primary reference that most use to draw those conclusions If you make it through the entire thing, you’ll notice that the US is not consistently first. It’s a fairly technical and thorough piece of work, and I’m not a doctor so I’m not going to try and interpret the results… suffice to say that both Canada and the US are doing exceptionally well on the Cancer front… but that the US does generally edge us out by a slight margin. One thing to note, however, is that Canada achieves very similar results to the US but spends 1/2 as much doing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDiddy View Post
You guys dont even treat cancer and wouldnt be able to WITHOUT the US. WE do all the reasearch that we graciously give to you. With out dirty profits we reinvest it into R&D. Dirty dirty profits... Your statement is spoken like a true person who knows NOTHING about the US Healthcare system. And the what you do know you learned from Micahel Moore's Sicko movie. See we have this thing called COBRA which is an extention of your healthcare benifits that MUST be given to you if you pay for it which is a limited continuation of your old policy. You have 18 months in the state of CT to find a new job and its being expanded. At that point if I cant find a job, Ive already lost everything and Healthcare is the least of my worries. I guess for you, you would rather be homeless and be able to get healthcare. We also have a little thing called Medicare/Medicaid which is just like your Candian healthcare. Its bloated, over budget and offers no real treatment options unless you have a run of the mill broken arm or something easy to treat. God help you if you get cancer because just like in Canada you are finished.
Since we’re requiring proof and “facts” how about you try and back up this claim? More specifically, that Canada would be unable to treat cancer without the aid of the US.

I’m well aware of what COBRA is, and that you have eligibility to continue your coverage. The REALLY shitty part is that unsubsidized (as it currently is) it costs over a $1000 a month for family coverage. How many employed people have $1000+ each and every month in disposable income? I don’t care to look it up. But how do you suppose that recently fired/laid off workers that are trying to keep food on the table, pay rent/mortgage and many other things… now also have to pay out the ass for COBRA.

And basically, until you’re flat broke and your life is turned upside down… you don’t have access to Medicare. Which is great, one rough patch in your life and you get a free pass to the bottom of the heap.

Again, you can keep trying to quote how bad the Canadian system is, but you’re wrong. But I suspect that you’re not likely to care and/or believe any of this because you’re bombarded by BS/biased facts and sensationalized stories all day long and you feel that is representative of the Canadian/British healthcare systems… But there’s not much I can do if you insist on keeping your blinders on and believing whatever you like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDiddy View Post
Nice lines of BS. I cant find this "claim" anywhere on the internet. Where did you get it? Show some freakin proof to back up your accusations!!! The short answer Im going to make up just like you make sh!t up is probably because they have to have the big house, the new BMW and a 75 inch HD plasma with a released yesterday PS3 and XBox360, while taking a ski vacation in Italy. They spend themselves into debt rather than save their money. Again, its not my problem. Learn to take care of your own. If these truely are "Upper Middle Class" as you claim they should be able to balance a budget and not over spend.
My bad, those were old figures. It’s now 62.1% as of 2007. I wasn’t able to find the original study that was more detailed and broke it down into income classes. But hopefully this will suffice.

http://www.pnhp.org/new_bankruptcy_s...uptcy-2009.pdf
Quote:
RESULTS: Using a conservative de?nition, 62.1% of all bankruptcies in 2007 were medical; 92% of these medical debtors had medical debts over $5000, or 10% of pretax family income. The rest met criteria for medical bankruptcy because they had lost signi?cant income due to illness or mortgaged a home to pay medical bills. Most medical debtors were well educated, owned homes, and had middle-class occupations. Three quarters had health insurance. Using identical de?nitions in 2001 and 2007, the share of bankruptcies attributable to medical problems rose by 49.6%. In logistic regression analysis controlling for demographic factors, the odds that a bankruptcy had a medical cause was 2.38-fold higher in 2007 than in 2001.

Last edited by pbeaul; 08-23-2009 at 09:17 AM.
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post #27 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-23-2009, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by BDiddy View Post
Wont justify or answer your accusations till you show me some proof. Im tired of the phantom BS. I have seen none of the studies or reseach that back up your claims and you havent shown any to me. So I just assume they are made up. Prove it and Ill respond. Ive already posted that this is BS when I showed cancer survival rates.
Seriously? You want talk the big game on how you know so much about healthcare… yet you don’t even know BASIC sh*t like this? If you actually cared… or spent half the time you do on right-wing think tank garbage you'd know this information.

Here’s a quick wiki breakdown If you don’t like that source… feel free to read the Commonwealth Fund’s Study (more specifically pg 15, exhibit 3) which details how much American healthcare costs and compares it to other countries since 1980.

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Originally Posted by BDiddy View Post
I think the person that has my best intrest in mind is ME!!!! What a stupid f*cking question to justify a sh!tty healthcare system.
[Me mocking you in a whiney voice] Dont you think the govt has your best intrest in mind?[/Me mocking you in a whiney voice]
NO I DONT! THATS THE WHOLE POINT!!!Thats the whole debate! That I am smart enough to take care of myself. That I am smart enough to save my money for a rainy day. If you arent it is not my problem.
This just goes to prove how ignorant and naïve you are. How many people have 100’s of thousands of dollars socked away for a rainy day? If you get sick, and ever lose your healthcare (due to dropping it, not being able to make payments… whatever) you’re now officially screwed over for life. You have a pre-existing condition, and no-one is going to want to touch you with a 10 foot pole… and if they do, they’ll charge you more and that pre-existing condition will be excluded from coverage.

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Originally Posted by BDiddy View Post
Says the guy who has to wait 6 months for an MRI, and has people coming to the US for surgeries the govt wont cover. No one is going to Canada for surgeries or healthcare coverage. The drugs you guys steal, and yes you steal them by saying to drug companies who have invested BILLIONS unless you sell at this price we will STEAL and VIOLATE international patent laws so we can have what we want. You guys are short doctors. Hospitals are filled and nurses are leaving. We have medical breakthroughs every day. It taks you 12 years to do it. We have the first heart, liver, kidney, lung, succesful hand and double hand transplants. I know this for a FACT. I have Canadian friends whose parents work in the healthcare industry up there and they say it sucks. End of story. Drs and nurses are over worked and underpaid.
Yes, I’ll concede that wait times are possibly the biggest problem with the Canadian system. But it’s nowhere near as bad and scary as it’s portrayed every day in the US media. If you need emergency life saving surgery you’ll get it (and an MRI if medically necessary)... I don’t have to call someone to be denied coverage and therefore not be able to afford the surgery like it’s all too common in the US. Not perfect, but relatively easy to address if more resources are added to the system.

Whoa, am I missing something here? I don’t see a link to all these “facts” that you’re reporting. Where have all your facts gone? All I see is you making lots of assumptions… Let’s start posting these “facts”… and your friend’s parent’s cousin’s brother’s next door neighbors stories too! (Don’t worry, I’ll ignore the statistics lesson you just tried to give me)

I have Canadian relatives and many friends that work in the industry too… and they don’t say it sucks. Tada Facts! As for them saying they are “over worked and underpaid” name me a field that doesn’t say that. But since you like facts this proves you and your friends parents are mostly wrong.

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Originally Posted by BDiddy View Post
Nice idea to say someone is uneducated to make a point. You sound just like Nancy, Harry and Barry. Insult those who disagree with you especially when they disprove your points. The American system is far from perfect, but it is far closer to perfection than your precious Canadian care system will ever be. Ive already proven that we have higher cancer survival rates, we have quicker more efficiant diagnocies so we can get to treating problems quicker and the cherry ono top is that there are no stories of people going to Canada or the UK or anywhere in Europe to get healthcare. Its the other way around. People are coming here to the US because we provide the best healthcare and yea you are going to pay for it, but apprently to some people in your country and around the world, the care given here in the US and their lives and health are PRICELESS!
Well look at the pot calling the kettle black. You might have been insulted but sadly it’s the truth. You haven’t “proven” anything. You cherry picked a bunch of right-wing articles and claim those to be fact… some if it is fact and some of it is a distortion of the truth.

Do Canadians and other wealthy individuals from around the world travel to the US for more immediate access advanced healthcare procedures? Yes. Does that mean the US has the best healthcare system in the world? Depends if you have access to it (read: money). Do people in the US die from preventable and completely unnecessary deaths illnesses to the tune of 75,000+ each year? Yes. Does the US do a better job on that front than “socialized” countries? No, they’re dead last… # 19 of 19.

Listen, we could go back and forth all day long cherry picking articles that “prove” our version of reality… The reality is, that there is no “perfect” system and that BOTH Canadian and American systems provide excellent care to those that have access to it. Difference being that more people have access to it in Canada. We just have different philosophies on how to provide that care… and according to independent studies the USA generally tends to do worse than Canada (when all things are considered.)

I don’t care to make this into a Canada vs US healthcare pissing match… Only to inject a different perspective that Americans generally don’t get exposed to because their media and government is largely bought and paid for by companies that have a vested interest in keeping things just the way they are. That’s not to say that the US system doesn’t have bright spots it does… you’ve mentioned most of them. But there’s also a very real problem with the current system, it’s that it benefits insurance companies and Wall Street more than the people of the United States.

Like everything else, take everything I have said with a grain of salt… do your own research, visit the dreaded “liberal” websites and see if they have stories/facts that contradict your own. There are almost always 2 (or more) sides to a story… if you accept one side without even acknowledging the existence/possibility of the other side you’re “research” is worthless.

Either way, I respect the fact that you’re so passionate about the cause. I don’t expect to change your mind, but hope to have at least opened your eyes/mind to a few things you didn't know…

Last edited by pbeaul; 08-23-2009 at 09:21 AM.
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post #28 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-24-2009, 03:59 PM
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I think the fundamental issue here is not about who needs the health care, but rather who's worth that health care. the reason why i say this is because you can put a price on life, otherwise life is worthless. because we don't have unlimited resources, not everyone needs health care can get health care. thus the only way to make it fair is if you can pay for it you deserve it, otherwise there will be no determining factor as to who gets what. because everyone wants 100% of dedicated health care for them regardless if their condition is curable or not.
as a result, your rights to live really all comes down to how much does the society value your life i.e. how much you or others who's willing to pay to keep your alive. if you so happens to run out of money before you are cure, than you don't worth enough to the society to be keep alive. it doesn't take a genius to figure out that bill gate's life worth a lot more than mine, his contribution to society is far grater than mine. thus if we got the same sickness that is curable but costly, he will live and i will die. partly because i am replaceable, there are way too many people can contribute to the society in the same way as i do, however, there is only 1 bill gates.

i understand to many, money is not an indication of success. however, money is the best common denominator when evaluating the worth between multiple uncorrelated subjects.

so back to the topic, do poor people have the right to live if they get sick which will be costly to cure?

Answer: only if they can pay for it. otherwise they are just not worth it.

RIP Phatty

Said whaaaa!!!

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post #29 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-24-2009, 09:50 PM
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Listen, for every government suicide/death panel incident you find… I can find the same or more incidents where patients were denied care from their insurance companies and actually died. There are so many documented cases of people that reached their quotas and were subsequently dropped from coverage for malicious/BS reasons (like not disclosing a case of acne or something retarded.) Since you quoted Sicko so many times I believe you’re already familiar with a handful of cases… I’ll leave it at that.
Then do it. Cause Sicko was the biggest hatchet job I have ever seen. It really belongs on the fiction shelf. Ill wait while you dig up all the "examples" of people who have been "kicked off" their health care and "died." More specifically I want the ones where they were denied an appeal or a second opinion. Because this is what happens in your beloved healthcare system. You get one shot or else...

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No one is going to win this battle, I personally would rather put my faith in government doing the right thing over a company that needs to turn a profit… but we can agree to disagree in regards to who we feel would best represent our collective interests. As for big pharma stepping in to save the day it’s nothing more than a perfect moral/PR victory for them… Kudos to them for stepping up.
See this is the point. So many times does big Pharm step up that its never mentioned in the mediathat you have to give a backhanded compliment. And you know what? You want to put your faith in govt... That's YOUR deal. Dont force me to put my faith in them. Like Reagan said, the 9 scariest words one can hear are: "I'm from the govt and I'm here to help."



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Indeed they are. I personally don’t feel that peoples’ lives should have a price tag on them…
Yet this is EXACTLY what govt healthcare does! With govt healthcare you have no chance to change their mind. There is STILL a bean counter that is there to decide who gets what and how much. How many appeals are filed vs how many are won? Are you even allowed to appeal a healthcare decision?
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while I realize this is a bit idealistic but morally I think it’s the right thing to do.
Yes of course. Its morally acceptable for the GOVT to decide if you should live or die than a corporation. I guess those who we elect to office ARE that much better than us. WTF is the difference between them?

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Unfortunately, this is in direct conflict with the priorities of a business. Like you said, a government can “afford” to run in the red… businesses can’t.
They can only afford to do this for so long before this little thing called inflation shows up or the taxes get so high you have a bloody revolution and I mean actual blood. It it within govts best interest to run black or green or very little in the red. Not billions like we already are thanks to Bam and his bailouts. Yea yea I know W and the lot. But it was a bad policy then that I didnt support and I dont support continuing a bad policy which Bam has done.

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Businesses have to make tough choices (like dropping the sick/costly, denying coverage etc.)
You cant just do that. If you knew anything about private insurance you would know that this is a straight up LIE and can not be done. Unless it written SPECIFICALLY in the contract. The contract that the insured signed and agreed to. At that point its up to you to have read it. I have read my insurance policy cover to cover in a week. Took notes and know what is and isnt covered. You can not be "dropped" just because you have a serious illness. You can be dropped for non-payment. You can be dropped if you violate the terms of the contract. But you can not be dropped because you are sick.
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otherwise people on Wall Street get pissed at them. Their goal is not to achieve productive, healthy and vibrant societies… but tangible and increasing profits every quarter.
Those 2 are in direct conflict with each other. You can not have profits without a healthy society. Not only that, with this statement it is clear to me that you have NO idea how insurance companies work internally. All you know is what you read or saw in Sicko.

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Governments don’t have to make those life/death decisions (yea, I know… I read your article about the Oregon lady.) But generally speaking governments that do value their citizens try to offer the best possible care available regardless of how sick the person is or what color their skin is or how big their bank account is.
Really? That's awful idealistic of you and you are again contradicting yourself. First you say they dont have to make those choices, yet the next sentence acknowledges that they DO have to make these choices and you finally settle on GENERALLY they dont. Which is it? With the up coming retirement of the baby boomer generation, all of our social systems are already going to be stretched to the max and adding another one isnt going to make things better or easier or more efficient. Ive already seen just how good the govt is at running simple systems like the Post office and Ive seen how good they are at running more complicated systems like social security and medicaid/medicare. Im not buying that they can run ANOTHER system. They cant even run the cash for clunkers program. Sorry. This is the whole crux of my argument. I KNOW the level of care will decrease if this socialized crap is passed. I dont think it will. I KNOW it will. And I dont trust the govt to do things efficiently as they have proven that they can not do that. So i will not trust them with my health. I would rather trust a company that has stayed in business because I KNOW that they have to be giving the care otherwise no one would be a customer of theirs. See its called competition and if they dont do what they claim to do, they go out of business.

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I can’t and won’t deny that there are several convenient aspects of the US healthcare system… the ones that make you feel so proud of your system that you put a cherry on top. There’s no question that if you have money the American system is bar none. Yup, I said it! You guys have the BEST HEALTH CARE IN THE WORLD if money is no object. But that sadly isn’t the case for most Americans.
Guess what? All those places that are the BEST treatment centers, dont take insurance to begin with. And when they get turned over to the govt control, they will close. Those great places are great because they do great work. And they do great work because people fund them with the payments for services. They are great because they have the best doctors and they have the best doctors because they get paid the most money. No matter how hard you try and how hard you believe, your idea of a utopia where everyone does the job they are best at for free and for "the good" is imaginative and fake. People do what they are best at because they get paid money. Deal with it. Stop living in fantasy land. The US didnt become a world leader in medicine by having people do it out of the goodness of their heart.

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As for efficiencies, Canadians spend ½ as much money and relatively speaking we get better overall care for our dollars.
You spend half as much money with a population that is only about 10% the population of the US. Yes you are very efficient at spending money per person. Taking this into account you do not have better over all care per dollar.
Quote:
A second point to make is that administrative costs for the US healthcare system (billing, marketing, etc) is roughly 31% of total health care costs while its somewhere around 17% in Canada… again close to half.
Again at 10% the population. So how efficient are you really? Billing is an issue because people abuse the insurance companies. Having worked in all areas of insurance I have seen this first hand. I had a woman submit a claim for a broken ankle. In her own report she stated that she was wearing 3 inch heels while carrying too many books and couldnt see in front of her and fell down the stairs. While this is an obvious wont be taken serious claim, the problem becomes that someone must be employed to read the claim, laugh and tell the woman she is an idiot. The problem is that much more frivilous claims are being leveled and people need to be employed to say no to them. This costs money and the cost is passed onto the consumer. Im sure you have the same problem. If I remember the outcome of that claim, the woman got her med bills paid and she had to use her own sick days for time off but her claim of suing the school for workers comp was denied. I think she got too good of a deal personally. You keep forgetting that there is more to "healthcare" than just health. There is also the liability issue. These are the REAL bankrupters of the American Insurance company.

"Oh and if you dare say that I dont know whats it like get a freakin clue! I date models and strippers. So dont tell me that I dont know whats its like!" - BDiddy
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post #30 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-24-2009, 09:50 PM
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Guys like John Edwards(the politician, not the psychic) who sued a Doctor and WON because he deduced that Cerebral Palsy was caused by a lack of oxygen at birth. His claim was that if only the Doc had don a c-section, this wouldnt have happened. He was successful in this suit and used the outcome to file 20+ more lawsuits against other Doctors on behalf of patients. This was the late 80s. Low and behold fast forward to the 00s and we now do 20% more C-sections, a FAR more dangerous and EXPENSIVE procedure because Docs have to practice preventive medicine or else get sued. One could deduce that the chance of a baby being born with CP would be 20% less than it was in the 1980s? Well guess what? The rate, THE RATE, not the number, the RATE of babies being born with CP has stayed the same since we increased the c-section operations. It would seem that John Edwards lied to the judge and jury and falsely claimed that natural birth as a cause of CP. Now why do we not look at this piece of evidence? Why hasnt John Edwards been forced to return all the money he "won" or in this case stole? Time has proved his theory and his claim FALSE. Why are Docs still FORCED to perform a more dangerous, painful and more expensive procedure. I already stated its preventive medicine. This is one of the problems with the American system. Ive already stated that the system isnt perfect, but Im not about to destroy it for some pie in the sky you are trying to sell. And what you and Obama are trying to sell is that the medical treatment you are receiving today will be exactly the same, but you wont have to pay for it. Which is a lie. You will be taxed on it and there is NO gaurentee that the govt will use it for its intention. The US govt has already proven that they WILL NOT put it away. They spend social security and medicare/medicaid on other crap and not its intended purpose. This is, AGAIN, why I dont trust the govt to handle this. They lie cheat and steal. More so than a private company.

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So the notion privatization is always more effective/efficient is wrong.
Wow, Im blown away. Oh except that the writers of that article were dishonest and were called on it. See the spot that says a correction has been published? Of course we spend more! Some of us demand a better policy that OMG! Costs more money! That was NOT taken into account in your example. The writers pretended that healthcare covered the same things in Canada as it did in the US. The comparison is apples to oranges since everyone in Canada gets the EXACT SAME LEVEL OF CARE. Vs in the US where different people have the option to pay more or less depending on their preference. If they want to spend more, they are free to do so, and if they want less they are free to do so. What you and again, Obama is peddling is standard class warfare argument. Everyone wants the Caddy or the Benz or the Bimmer or the Rolls Royce or the Big B; Bently. But they all want to pay Hyundai prices. And if you are FAIR about it, the Hyundai is a fine vehicle, but compare it with no mention of price to the Rolls Royce and its a piece of junk. And that is the unfair comparison you are trying to make. That everyone deserves the Rolls Royce. But we all cant pay for the Rolls Royce so instead of being allowed to buy the Hyundai if you want, we, the govt, will buy you the Lincoln Town Car. Its got all the features of the Rolls, leather, heated seats, big V8, 4 doors, but its not quite the Rolls. As stupid as that comparison seems, that is what the healthcare debate is all about to me. Trying to force me to buy someone something they didnt earn and make me buy something I dont want. To put it bluntly: I dont believe that health care is a right. I believe that you have a right to buy health care, but you are not entitled to it.

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So according to you, the best indicator (and only apparently) is how good your cancer survival rates?
Me and most Doctors yes. The reason being that cancer is not something you can prevent. Most diseases and viruses can be prevented by lifestyle choices. Heart disease, STDs, AIDs, ect, all of these can be prevented. Heart disease is the #1 killer in the US, but with proper exercize and diet, it can be avoided. We still havent figured out why 1 guy gets cancer and the other doesnt. It strikes at random. This is why i choose cancer, because its the most difficult to understand when it hits you.

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There are many examples of good healthcare systems, such as France, Netherlands, Switzerland, etc all of which are arguably less “socialized” than the Canadian and British system and utilize more privatization. While I’m not an expert on their system the Netherlands has a completely private health insurance industry and it probably resembles the US system the most. The major exception being that the government determines a basic set of rules and guidelines that all insurance companies have to adhere to. Appart from those basic rules… the Dutch are free to shop around for a plan on their liking (basic stuff, or a high end premium plan that covers everything under the sun.) I also believe that Switzerland uses a fairly similar approach.
Ummm, this is what the US has. How are those any different than what the US has? You say that for-profit healthcare is a horrible idea and yet when I ask you to provide an example of a GOOD healthcare system, you pick and deem the best to be for-profit systems!!! OMG!! Im not saying that the US needs to keep exactly what it has right now. Im saying that your style of healthcare is inferior to ours. We can tweek and tune our healthcare system and Ill make a post after this my ideas, but WOW. Way to completely torpedo any argument you had. I mean like wow. I know the US system needs work but switching to single payer govt system like you is not the answer and apparently you dont think its the best either.
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France on the other hand provides a basic level of care (like medicare) to the entire population, and if you want you can optionally purchase supplemental healthcare insurance.
Actually the US provides this as well. Go ahead. Walk into an ER and see if you are turned away. Im not holding my breath on this because you wont be. You wont get constant care, but if its an emergency you will be treated.

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The major difference is that the US is the ONLY system in the world that is market driven, human lives/treatment are viewed as a commodity.
Except for the Netherlands and Switzerland and France which you admit have private healthcare systems with a basic set of rules that GOSH is exactly like the US. The simple fact that its a private system where people can pick and choose means its market driven. Thats Econ 101. Because a policy isnt going to be there if no one chooses it.

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Healthcare in the US is treated like a business, and doesn’t necessarily guaranty that those that actually need care get anything… only that those who can afford it do get it. Sure you can get a MRI done in a day… but did you really need it? Are you simply getting one because you can? Did someone else need one but couldn’t afford it?
Healthcare is a business! People do work and need to be compensated for their work. PEOPLE file the papers. PEOPLE write the checks. PEOPLE write the policies. Insurance companies arent the autonomous drones you want to think they are.
And yea I actually did need the MRI. I divulge that information, but if I didnt want to tell you, its none of your business. Im paying for it and I want it. END OF STORY. Did someone else get one? I dont care. Its not my business. In Canada the street goes the other way. You may need one, but if the Doc can get away with NOT getting you one, thats a better way isnt it? How do you determine if someone NEEDS and MRI? Are you a Doctor? What is your expertise to decide if I need it? Again another problem with the Canadian system. The Doc may say yes, but if the bean counter says no. And here is the problem. Who decides what is needed and what isnt needed? It would seem that Doctors are the best qualified and they seem to be giving alot of MRIs and surgeries up in Canada. So many that its too many and some need to be canceled. Never had an MRI canceled by the govt here.

"Oh and if you dare say that I dont know whats it like get a freakin clue! I date models and strippers. So dont tell me that I dont know whats its like!" - BDiddy
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