Afghanistan- still worth it? - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old 12-09-2009, 06:36 AM Thread Starter
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Afghanistan- still worth it?

Okay so we had an interested chat today, granted all the people involved were Army and we are returning from Afghanistan, but still interesting none the less. We were talking about how Obama doesn't know how to ask the military leadership on the ground what they need to win the fight, but instead takes their suggestion, thinks it over for a few months, then comes up with a lower number than what was needed. I'm referring to Gen. McCrystal asking for 65,000 troops to help combat the insurgency in AFG, but instead Obama says "I'll give you 30,000." Bush was better at this as he asked all the leaders in Iraq (not just Gen Petreus) what they needed to win the fight and we would do our damnedest to get that for you. Now it's looking like Obama doesn't want to commit, kinda like back in another time (read: Vietnam), the lack of commitment lost us the fight.
Obama seriously needs to stop worrying about his public image and go with the men on the ground. Not to bash my leadership, but the joint cheifs doesn't know f^ckall about what's going on on the ground in AFG sitting in the Pentagon, they need to listen to the commanders in the field, then work to get them what they want. We don't need naval superiority so they can cancel all these new programs to improve an already strong Navy, what we need is better tactics and training, and give them the troops the leaders need to win.
What do you all think? Is Afghanistan a lost cause? Should we cut our losses and just bail? Or should we stay the course and win this so it doesn't turn into another Anarchist nation like Somalia?

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post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old 12-09-2009, 07:21 AM
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To me, Afghanistan wasn't worth it 8 years ago when everyone went over there. Sure bombing Al Qaeda was a good idea, but trying to stabilize that country is a waste of time. Afghans have been though this charade one too many times, they know the US isn't going to be there forever, they understand that eventually the US will pull out and the Taliban will be back terrorizing all those that betrayed them. Let the extensive history of this region be a lesson...

But most importantly, you can't force freedom/democracy onto those that don't want it/unwilling to sacrifice what's necessary to achieve it themselves. It just doesn't work that way no matter how hard you try. Not saying you don't help them achieve it... but the primary drivers have to be afghans, not the the US military.

In regards to Obama's leadership, it can go both ways... I think it's good that Obama is taking a hard serious look into this, that he's not just sending people needlessly into harms way. I think it's great that Obama came to show his respects to the fallen heros. I don't recall Bush ever doing the same... at least not publicly.

Additionally, from what I've read there were a few surge options presented by Gen. McCrystal... and that he was looking for around 40,000 more troops not 65,000. At the end of the day the Military is there to serve the people, if their duties are no longer needed/in the best interest of the country it's time for them to come back home. If they're not going back home, give them the tools they need to get the job done...

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post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 05:53 PM
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I'm just sick of politicians doing things based off of what will make them look the best to the most people. What ever happened to standing by their original beliefs, instead of changing them suddenly because public opinion changes. If we could have a president who had the balls to just get some **** done without clusterfucking around for months looking at polls, there might actually be hope that one day this country could get $12 trillion dollars out of debt, and finished with these wars.
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post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 07:13 PM
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I think to leave now would be disrespectful to those who lost their lives. The oil coming out of that area will pay for it, eventually..

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post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 07:47 PM
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The Russians had to bail out after so many years the US will eventually do the same



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post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 08:35 PM
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the oil pipeline & the opium farms in Afghanistan ($500B a year trade) is too lucrative to be left alone for somebody else to takeover.


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post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old 12-23-2009, 05:21 AM
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No one will ever be able to over take Afghanistan. Especially if the Pashtun people are still there. They're one of the oldest societies in the world. They didn't make it that far by being push over either. They're very honorable people towards each other.

So personally I think Afghanistan isn't worth fighting or dying for anymore. But if duty calls I will fight for my country.

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post #8 of 30 (permalink) Old 12-31-2009, 08:10 AM
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post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old 12-31-2009, 01:50 PM
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Rip to our fallen soldiers as well in the Afghan war, if you ask me its not worth it but alot of them feel what there doing is still worth while. Sad day for Canada today.

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post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old 12-31-2009, 08:56 PM
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I've been in the military for 9 years now and I have deployed overseas 4 times, about to be a 5th in March. If I believe in why we are there or if I dont..I still have to do my job... Not because I care about the politicians back home but because of the people on my left and right. That's what everyone must realize. I go over there with one thing in mind.... Getting all my Soldiers home in one peice back to their families.
post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old 12-31-2009, 09:08 PM
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how many more lives must be lost before y'all realize this war is for special interests.

this war isn't worth fighting & getting yourself maimed or killed just to get a paycheck.


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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old 12-31-2009, 09:30 PM
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When I joined there wasn't a war in Aghan or Iraq...It's not up to me to determine when this war will end. Like I said before I do my job and that's that.

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Originally Posted by OveRReV View Post
how many more lives must be lost before y'all realize this war is for special interests.

this war isn't worth fighting & getting yourself maimed or killed just to get a paycheck.
post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old 01-01-2010, 09:22 AM
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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old 01-02-2010, 03:35 AM
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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-10-2010, 04:54 PM
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The question comes back to, what do we have to gain, it doesn't seem like anything obvious which probably means it's business for some. A trillion dollars a year on defense is absurd you could buy everyone in the country 50,000 assault rifles with ammo each.
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post #16 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-11-2010, 07:07 AM
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War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
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post #17 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-11-2010, 07:09 AM
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yes it is still worth it... bottom line is business... but, i hope we gain some controll over the insane who are running around trying to blow everything up...

From time to time, the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots.
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post #18 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-11-2010, 07:52 AM
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Its just a case of a thirsty man and dirty water...

Are we over there so rich can get richer? To a degree yes, But are we also over there to surpress terriost training and atleast try to give good honest people freedom? Id like to believe more of the ladder but the road to hell is paved with good intentions...

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post #19 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-11-2010, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by awd-turbo View Post
yes it is still worth it... bottom line is business... but, i hope we gain some controll over the insane who are running around trying to blow everything up...

From time to time, the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots.
--Thomas Jefferson--
Go put your blood on the line then, you have mis interrupted TJ's quote he for one would have never been in favor of this war. I don't thing most people would be a against a war with an obvious target but declaring Iraqis to be insurgents is insane, we by the very definition of the word are insurgents and if Stealth bombers isn't the very definition of a terrorist act what is ? Planes that sneak around and bomb target un announced without a formal declaration of war most times ? Washington himself attacked the Britts on Christmas which was deffinately considered then and now to be a terrorist strike. Yes a necessary one, but like all things whenever you attack another country you create combatants. Imagine what would happen if Obama flipped out and started killing Asains, then China swoops in and stops him. How long do you think the American people would then accept there presence ? And let's say reports are true and there was 500,000 civilian casualties here instead of Iraq, do you think you would still accept China's help then ? What if China was against everything you believe to begin with ?

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post #20 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-12-2010, 06:52 AM
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Go put your blood on the line then, you have mis interrupted TJ's quote he for one would have never been in favor of this war.

Have put my blood on the line, more than u think, and i would do it again if i was allowed to go back to what i was doing....

how do you know his quote doesnt fit those who suffer from "insurgents" bombings everyday over there? what about the freedom of those that live there that just want peace from a country that they loved, but is being runned by crooked political people.

Have u ever been there? have you ever put your blood on the line. That quote is universal it doesnt just apply to this country! Dont ******* talk to me unless you have seen it first hand, and have seen how greatful the majority of those people are over there! And times have changed, and war has changed. we no longer stand in front of each other and aim at one guy, when the ball hits someone else 20 feet down the line! we evolve to survive. just like the insurgents over there have evolved to give them the edge with their tactics!
post #21 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-12-2010, 12:03 PM
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We should have only been there to begin with instead of some Dickhead sending us to finish the job his brilliant father failed to do. Instead we spread ourselves thin and never caught who we should have.
Osama.
Oh wait we probably could have done that if we didn't fly everyone of his family members out of the US.
Obama has only been in office for about 200 days and people want immediate change. Where the hell were those same cry babies when GW took just as long to even respond the the 9/11 attacks. I don't think we waited a minute when Pearl Harbor was attacked. Guess thats why they will always be remembered as the Greatest Generation.
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post #22 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-12-2010, 12:15 PM
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Let me ask this question, of these people who posted. Who is in the military, and of those who has been deployed to put their own 2˘ in. I myself as a OIF Veteran and fixin to go to Afghanistan in a few months.

Most people dont know or understand the things we go through before,during and after deployment. Its not always about certain things, or bein self-centered. In a way flat out, people serve our country because they want to and know what their getting their self into.

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post #23 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-12-2010, 12:51 PM
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deployed 3 long times! running mission after mission on a daily basis!
post #24 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-12-2010, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by awd-turbo View Post
Have put my blood on the line, more than u think, and i would do it again if i was allowed to go back to what i was doing....

how do you know his quote doesnt fit those who suffer from "insurgents" bombings everyday over there? what about the freedom of those that live there that just want peace from a country that they loved, but is being runned by crooked political people.

Have u ever been there? have you ever put your blood on the line. That quote is universal it doesnt just apply to this country! Dont ******* talk to me unless you have seen it first hand, and have seen how greatful the majority of those people are over there! And times have changed, and war has changed. we no longer stand in front of each other and aim at one guy, when the ball hits someone else 20 feet down the line! we evolve to survive. just like the insurgents over there have evolved to give them the edge with their tactics!
Are you not allowed to go back to what you were doing because your unstable ? I only ask because because you seem oblivious to even recent history, yes Sadam was a dictator but I don't recall people blowing themselves up in the street while he was in power. This is a new phenomenon since we have arrived, I hardly see the death of half a million or more non combatants as a good thing no matter what clouded metric you use to judge reality. Which to be frank is what your saying. It's worth alot of lives and money and there is seemingly no end. I don't need my friends many of whom were rangers coming back and telling me that it's wasted blood to figure that much out on my own. But I don't want to discount your opinion so much as I want you to spell out in a way that makes sense, what does it mean to "win" The kind of win if say Spain attacked and we repelled them, a clear threat a clear goal a clear defeat - who are we attacking - every muslim nation that hates us - what is our goal to make Iraq the same bastion of troubled democracy the US has become - are they going to pay war reperations for that help - give us tax money or free gas ? - and at what point have we defeated terrorism - when everyone is dead ?
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post #25 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-12-2010, 02:23 PM
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Are you not allowed to go back to what you were doing because your unstable ? I only ask because because you seem oblivious to even recent history, yes Sadam was a dictator but I don't recall people blowing themselves up in the street while he was in power. This is a new phenomenon since we have arrived, I hardly see the death of half a million or more non combatants as a good thing no matter what clouded metric you use to judge reality. Which to be frank is what your saying. It's worth alot of lives and money and there is seemingly no end. I don't need my friends many of whom were rangers coming back and telling me that it's wasted blood to figure that much out on my own. But I don't want to discount your opinion so much as I want you to spell out in a way that makes sense, what does it mean to "win" The kind of win if say Spain attacked and we repelled them, a clear threat a clear goal a clear defeat - who are we attacking - every muslim nation that hates us - what is our goal to make Iraq the same bastion of troubled democracy the US has become - are they going to pay war reperations for that help - give us tax money or free gas ? - and at what point have we defeated terrorism - when everyone is dead ?
yea i am unstable thats it... NO, i have knee injuries, in which i am no longer aloud to continue with my team in NSWC. I dont give a **** what your friends say. you cant speak what they say as if you have some type of experience in it. when you clearly are some ******* idiot who sits behind a computer, reads articles and uses the opinnion of others, because u dont have first hand knowledge of ****.
Dont ******* sit there and tell me i am wrong. Ive seen it. Ive seen action in more countries then u have visited in your life. There are road side boms, and there have been a couple suicide boms in Iraq while sadam was in power. like one of the guys above said we spread ourselves thin over there to cover ground and hav 100 guys doing 1000 guys jobs..
but no u want to sit there and say well when sadam was in power everything was ok... BS... everything was nto ok.. it wasnt as bad as it has gotten over the years, but there was still problems over there. The real problem there is lack of focus on one spot at a time..


no go back and play your ******* video games!
post #26 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-12-2010, 03:33 PM
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I honestly don't know if its worth it or not. Our countries have been there for quite a while and the only things we hear about is the stuff the media reports and they tend to slant stuff one way or another based on their papers "official stance" on the war. Its pretty sad that we can't get fair objective reporting these days.

With that being said, it appears (at least) that things are better than they were when the taliban was in charge but once we leave will it resort to the old way? If it does then it wouldn't be worth it, but if the peace and democracy last then It will. Is that possible?, How are we to know?
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post #27 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-12-2010, 04:36 PM
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Awd-turbo do you think the ~100K dead iraqis would say their lives are better now or before? Do you think that the family members of those dead iraqis is better now or before? Do you think the lives of the soldiers who died unnecessarily are better now or before?

We get it, you served and therefore have the only valid opinion on war/occupation. No one else has enough 1st hand knowledge about the situation to be able to formulate a valid opinion. What us "others" have is intelligence, foresight and historical perspective... Both are needed to fully understand most complex situations.

Do you realize that Saddam was put in power by the US/CIA? Do you realize that the US supplied Iraq (and Iran) with arms? Do you realize that US are the ones that supplied Iraq with the biological weapons he/his brother used against the Kurds? Do you realize that the US/CIA are the ones that trained/armed the Taliban/Mujaheddin in Afghanistan? Do you realize that US gives billions of your tax dollars away to Israel each year. Do you realize that UK/US were the ones that overthrew a democratically elected official in Iran and installed their own dictator?

When are you going to open your eyes and realize that all this BS has consequences? You think you can go around pissing on people all you like and they're just going to sit there and enjoy being pissed on because you have the biggest stick? I know you like to think everything you do is for the greater good but wake up, seriously. Try putting yourselves in their shoes for once. How would you like being bullied around by the big kid on the block? Would you sit there and take it?

Have you been watching the news lately? Which country has been taking a beating in the western media? Which country is the US and most of its allies trying to place new sanctions on? Which country is directly between Iraq/Afghanistan with huge military installations/forces on each side of its border? What if China tried to "help" Mexico with all of its drug problems and build huge bases all along the US border. That would be fine with you because they'd be helping Mexico... Right?

What do the people of the US have to gain from all this? Does it make sense to occupy other nations with hundreds of thousands of soldiers to catch a few thousand thugs? If a business spent 5000 dollars in man power to prevent 5 dollars worth of theft would that make sense to you? Is it fine for the government to be doing that?

Most importantly don't you realize that the terrorists are kicking your ass really bad right now? By doing simple sh*t they've got America running in circles spending money they don't have and doing all kinds of crazy paranoid sh*t. The US is destroying itself from within and doing more harm to itself than ANY terrorist organization could ever hope for. If things don't change I fear what the US is going to look like in 15 - 20 years.

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I honestly don't know if its worth it or not. Our countries have been there for quite a while and the only things we hear about is the stuff the media reports and they tend to slant stuff one way or another based on their papers "official stance" on the war. Its pretty sad that we can't get fair objective reporting these days.

With that being said, it appears (at least) that things are better than they were when the taliban was in charge but once we leave will it resort to the old way? If it does then it wouldn't be worth it, but if the peace and democracy last then It will. Is that possible?, How are we to know?
How do we know it wont last... You look at the history of the region. The US has been trying to stabilize the region for 60+ years. The US is the reason why Hellman province is as prosperous agriculturally as it is. Same people that built the hoover dam also built a large dam in Afghanistan to help regulate the flow of water. Unfortunately, that new found agricultural capacity was used for opium/heroin/pot crops because they pay a lot better than wheat and other conventional crops. Until Afghanistan has an economy that doesn't revolve around drugs there's ZERO chance of keeping the corruption out of the country. The US would love nothing more than peaceful prosperous middle east so that it could build pipelines all over the place and transport Oil/NG to the rest of Asia.

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post #28 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-09-2010, 05:27 PM
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The Russians had to bail out after so many years the US will eventually do the same


Afghanistan is a cluster ****. I know a Russian expat who fought in that war. He doesn't like to talk about it but from what little he has said, Afghanistan is more fucked up than Iraq is. And that's saying something.

I'm the only one saying it, but I know others are thinking it: the only way to win is to wipe the slate clean. Someone needs to drop the ******* bomb on all these backwards idiots. Anyone read about that 13 year old girl who was raped to death by her new "husband" in Yemen? Yea, different part of the world, but still part of the archaic Muslim customs that fly in the muslim world. **** 'em all I say.

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post #29 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-13-2010, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by RyGuy View Post
Or should we stay the course and win this so it doesn't turn into another Anarchist nation like Somalia?
lol lets be real, theres not possible way to win it at this point, the US has been "losing" since day 1
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post #30 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-13-2010, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by turbotrip View Post
lol lets be real, theres not possible way to win it at this point, the US has been "losing" since day 1
right, the USA will go the way of the USSR & pull out of Afghanistan, soon afterwards the Soviet empire collapsed & the same thing will happen to the US if they don't stop this kind of foreign policy, such is the fate of all empires.


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