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post #61 of 99 (permalink) Old 05-29-2013, 11:16 AM
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lol that was my point ;)


But it's not a 2 party system,
okay man, now your just nit-pickin' my words haha

i know we are not set up as a two party system, lazy choice of words on my part but give me a break!

no, but really. i appreciate you saying this. it is our fault. we can not blame the gov't. i think i made a post about this before. how the founding fathers would be ashamed of US that we have allowed this gov't to act in such a way. the gov't is just naturally doing what the founding fathers knew it would inevitably do if left unchecked. now we suffer the consequences of many generation's (including our own) constitutional illiteracy, if you will.
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post #62 of 99 (permalink) Old 05-29-2013, 01:03 PM
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okay man, now your just nit-pickin' my words haha

i know we are not set up as a two party system, lazy choice of words on my part but give me a break!

no, but really. i appreciate you saying this. it is our fault. we can not blame the gov't. i think i made a post about this before. how the founding fathers would be ashamed of US that we have allowed this gov't to act in such a way. the gov't is just naturally doing what the founding fathers knew it would inevitably do if left unchecked. now we suffer the consequences of many generation's (including our own) constitutional illiteracy, if you will.
lol I wasn't trying to "nit-pick" I was just pointing it out. ;)


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post #63 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-06-2013, 11:06 AM
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Scandal #4

U.S. Is Secretly Collecting Records of Verizon Calls

WASHINGTON — The Obama administration is secretly carrying out a domestic surveillance program under which it is collecting business communications records involving Americans under a hotly debated section of the Patriot Act, according to a highly classified court order disclosed on Wednesday night.

The order, signed by Judge Roger Vinson of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court in April, directs a Verizon Communications subsidiary, Verizon Business Network Services, to turn over “on an ongoing daily basis” to the National Security Agency all call logs “between the United States and abroad” or “wholly within the United States, including local telephone calls.”

The order does not apply to the content of the communications.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/06/us....html?hp&_r=1&

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post #64 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-06-2013, 11:36 AM
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Don't think that it's just Verizon customers. That's just the one we KNOW about.


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post #65 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-06-2013, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by WherzRoony View Post
Scandal #4

U.S. Is Secretly Collecting Records of Verizon Calls

WASHINGTON — The Obama administration is secretly carrying out a domestic surveillance program under which it is collecting business communications records involving Americans under a hotly debated section of the Patriot Act, according to a highly classified court order disclosed on Wednesday night.

The order, signed by Judge Roger Vinson of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court in April, directs a Verizon Communications subsidiary, Verizon Business Network Services, to turn over “on an ongoing daily basis” to the National Security Agency all call logs “between the United States and abroad” or “wholly within the United States, including local telephone calls.”

The order does not apply to the content of the communications.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/06/us....html?hp&_r=1&
Again, calling this an "Obama administration" program isn't accurate... He has just carried on like the last administration. This sh*t is the very reason for why the patriot act exists. So that they could throw away the constitution and do whatever the hell they wanted "legally".

This crap has been going on since around 9/11, the NSA has installed super computers (known as NARUS systems) at many (most?) of the major telecommunication hubs throughout the USA. These systems could analyze 10,000Gb of data every second (probably far more now)... That's a seriously huge volume of data.

NSA has its tenticles in all major tech companies: Google, facebook, micrsoft, skype... You name it. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...iants-nsa-data

If you want to know more, checkout some senior NSA staff blowing the whistle of what the NSA has been up to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...qHln8U#t=1452s

Another good one:


That said, right-wingers... I'd love nothing more than to see you guys keep this bullsh*t in the news. Obama and his "transparent government" deserve the sh*t-storm that will hopefully come about.
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post #66 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-07-2013, 07:11 AM
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Absolutely, this isn't a scandal, it's legal under the law.

And yes, it started under Bush, which I thought he should have been impeached for! If congress had balls! Oh but wait, they like having this power.

The things that makes this sting more than back then is that THIS president ran for office specifically criticizing his predecessor for these policies! I remember when they were having debates on the floor over the patriot act and remember hearing/reading Obama responses calling it a violation of our civil liberties and a disturbing act by a sitting president.

BUT, that's all different now that he's the one doing it...

I was pissed then and I'm even more pissed now!


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post #67 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-07-2013, 08:11 AM Thread Starter
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Did anyone else see the irs secret man caves all over the country disguised like storage buildings. We need to destroy the IRS and imprison them all. How much of our money they have wasted disgusts me


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post #68 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-07-2013, 08:20 AM
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did anyone else see the irs secret man caves all over the country disguised like storage buildings. We need to destroy the irs and imprison them all. How much of our money they have wasted disgusts me


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absolutely!!!!!!!!!


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post #69 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-07-2013, 09:07 AM
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That wasn't the IRS doing the mancaves. It was a contracted EPA warehouse.

We were spending a lot of money to pay for a warehouse full of crap being watched by a bunch of hooligans. Basically.


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post #70 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-07-2013, 09:26 AM Thread Starter
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That wasn't the IRS doing the mancaves. It was a contracted EPA warehouse.

We were spending a lot of money to pay for a warehouse full of crap being watched by a bunch of hooligans. Basically.


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Nor gonna lie. The Star Trek video and their stupid dance classes piss me off. I work 60 hours a week to make 45g a year and these a$$ clowns are pissing away my tax dollars with this stupid b.s. this angers me very deeply.


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post #71 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-07-2013, 09:29 AM
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Under Bush, the phone records collected were for international calls only.

Obama expanded it to cover every call made, even domestic.

I also always expected something like Prism going on with the NSA. We need Anonymous to bring those pricks down. (As the NSA just read what I typed. F.U. AHoles !!!)

(I now expect to be audited by the IRS this year)

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post #72 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-07-2013, 12:21 PM
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http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/06/06/obama...icans-privacy/


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post #73 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-07-2013, 01:58 PM
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Under Bush, the phone records collected were for international calls only.

Obama expanded it to cover every call made, even domestic.

I also always expected something like Prism going on with the NSA. We need Anonymous to bring those pricks down. (As the NSA just read what I typed. F.U. AHoles !!!)

(I now expect to be audited by the IRS this year)

Wrong. It started around 9/11 and only got progressively worse from there.

NSA spying timeline: https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline

Anyone that claims that isn't paying attention. In 2008 congress rushed through some amendments to the FISA act that basically gave all telecoms retroactive immunity. This was at the same time Senator Obama was talking about how he would refuse to sign it because he stood for transparency in government. He ultimately voted FOR telecom immunity, and pretty much set the tone for how "transparent" his government would be.

Watch the videos above, those 2 guys were senior NSA management and they clearly state it started after 9/11. Which is why retroactive immunity was needed.

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post #74 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-07-2013, 03:05 PM
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Oh it definitely STARTED under Bush, we can debate over whether or not it was the intent or not. Regardless, it was the first step! (or 5!)

Now lets put a stop to it! Shame of the current administration for vowing to put an end to it but instead INCREASED it!


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post #75 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-07-2013, 04:03 PM
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Now lets put a stop to it! Shame of the current administration for vowing to put an end to it but instead INCREASED it!
To put a stop to it, you need to stop this retarded infighting and division that has been going on for nearly a decade now. Obama did this, Bush did that... Blah blah, if only the other guy won. My corrupt party is better than your corrupt party!

It's time people wake up, the crap you guys keep moaning about would have happened regardless of who was in the White House. The actual differences between Bush and Obama policies are seriously minor. You're all getting played for fools.

Sooner you guys set aside your differences and stop calling each other idiots the sooner you can start working together to fix the mess.
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post #76 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-07-2013, 04:27 PM
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To put a stop to it, you need to stop this retarded infighting and division that has been going on for nearly a decade now. Obama did this, Bush did that... Blah blah, if only the other guy won. My corrupt party is better than your corrupt party!

It's time people wake up, the crap you guys keep moaning about would have happened regardless of who was in the White House. The actual differences between Bush and Obama policies are seriously minor. You're all getting played for fools.

Sooner you guys set aside your differences and stop calling each other idiots the sooner you can start working together to fix the mess.
What is the infighting and division you're referring to? Are you talking about the partisan talk? If so, that's never going to stop. It's been that way since before the constitution was ratified. In fact, the very structure of our government was INTENDED to create division. In an attempt to limit the powers each congress would give to each other as well as to the next congress.

Just look at the structure, read the federalist papers. It couldn't be more clear!

But, lets say you're onto something, what do you suggest? Do you suggest we get a candidate that vows to reverse the wrongs of the previous administration? hmmm... Sound familiar? Then we elected that person to office...

Then what? When he violates his OWN vows, what then? WE RE-ELECT HIM AGAIN!



NO!!! What NEEDS to happen is "the people" need to WAKE UP! We have to hold these idiots accountable! EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM!

Stop listening to what Obama says about Bush or "the tea party" stop listening to the crap Bush spills about this or that, and start looking at what they are doing! NOT WHAT THEY ARE SAYING!

Last year I had so many conversations with people who had NO CLUE what they were talking about, politically. They had ZERO information on ANY policy that had been passed, pressured, etc... All they knew was what they saw on some advertisement. That "Obama is going to make my life better" and "did you see Romney got that women killed... he should be thrown in jail" and so on. Even here on this forum, the uninformed FAR outweigh the informed.

I'm not saying Romney was the answer, in fact I would bet a months pay that he wasn't. But that's a different conversation...


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post #77 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-07-2013, 08:28 PM Thread Starter
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What is the infighting and division you're referring to? Are you talking about the partisan talk? If so, that's never going to stop. It's been that way since before the constitution was ratified. In fact, the very structure of our government was INTENDED to create division. In an attempt to limit the powers each congress would give to each other as well as to the next congress.

Just look at the structure, read the federalist papers. It couldn't be more clear!

But, lets say you're onto something, what do you suggest? Do you suggest we get a candidate that vows to reverse the wrongs of the previous administration? hmmm... Sound familiar? Then we elected that person to office...

Then what? When he violates his OWN vows, what then? WE RE-ELECT HIM AGAIN!



NO!!! What NEEDS to happen is "the people" need to WAKE UP! We have to hold these idiots accountable! EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM!

Stop listening to what Obama says about Bush or "the tea party" stop listening to the crap Bush spills about this or that, and start looking at what they are doing! NOT WHAT THEY ARE SAYING!

Last year I had so many conversations with people who had NO CLUE what they were talking about, politically. They had ZERO information on ANY policy that had been passed, pressured, etc... All they knew was what they saw on some advertisement. That "Obama is going to make my life better" and "did you see Romney got that women killed... he should be thrown in jail" and so on. Even here on this forum, the uninformed FAR outweigh the informed.

I'm not saying Romney was the answer, in fact I would bet a months pay that he wasn't. But that's a different conversation...
The only way to know if he was the answer would be to elect him and try him out. Not to elect the same idiot twice. Terms for the president should be 8 year with an election every 2 years. 4 years is too long IMO


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post #78 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-08-2013, 01:12 AM
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To put a stop to it, you need to stop this retarded infighting and division that has been going on for nearly a decade now. Obama did this, Bush did that... Blah blah, if only the other guy won. My corrupt party is better than your corrupt party!

It's time people wake up, the crap you guys keep moaning about would have happened regardless of who was in the White House. The actual differences between Bush and Obama policies are seriously minor. You're all getting played for fools.

Sooner you guys set aside your differences and stop calling each other idiots the sooner you can start working together to fix the mess.
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Originally Posted by Niner1000RR View Post
What is the infighting and division you're referring to? Are you talking about the partisan talk? If so, that's never going to stop. It's been that way since before the constitution was ratified. In fact, the very structure of our government was INTENDED to create division. In an attempt to limit the powers each congress would give to each other as well as to the next congress.

Just look at the structure, read the federalist papers. It couldn't be more clear!

But, lets say you're onto something, what do you suggest? Do you suggest we get a candidate that vows to reverse the wrongs of the previous administration? hmmm... Sound familiar? Then we elected that person to office...

Then what? When he violates his OWN vows, what then? WE RE-ELECT HIM AGAIN!



NO!!! What NEEDS to happen is "the people" need to WAKE UP! We have to hold these idiots accountable! EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM!

Stop listening to what Obama says about Bush or "the tea party" stop listening to the crap Bush spills about this or that, and start looking at what they are doing! NOT WHAT THEY ARE SAYING!

Last year I had so many conversations with people who had NO CLUE what they were talking about, politically. They had ZERO information on ANY policy that had been passed, pressured, etc... All they knew was what they saw on some advertisement. That "Obama is going to make my life better" and "did you see Romney got that women killed... he should be thrown in jail" and so on. Even here on this forum, the uninformed FAR outweigh the informed.

I'm not saying Romney was the answer, in fact I would bet a months pay that he wasn't. But that's a different conversation...
You two are basically talking about the exact same thing here.

niner, you say partisan talk existed ever since the Constitution but that doesnt make it right.

"The unity of government which constitutes you one people is also now dear to you. It is justly so, for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquility at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very liberty which you so highly prize. But as it is easy to foresee that, from different causes and from different quarters, much pains will be taken, many artifices employed to weaken in your minds the conviction of this truth; as this is the point in your political fortress against which the batteries of internal and external enemies will be most constantly and actively (though often covertly and insidiously) directed, it is of infinite moment that you should properly estimate the immense value of your national union to your collective and individual happiness; that you should cherish a cordial, habitual, and immovable attachment to it; accustoming yourselves to think and speak of it as of the palladium of your political safety and prosperity; watching for its preservation with jealous anxiety; discountenancing whatever may suggest even a suspicion that it can in any event be abandoned; and indignantly frowning upon the first dawning of every attempt to alienate any portion of our country from the rest, or to enfeeble the sacred ties which now link together the various parts.

For this you have every inducement of sympathy and interest. Citizens, by birth or choice, of a common country, that country has a right to concentrate your affections. The name of American, which belongs to you in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of patriotism more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion, manners, habits, and political principles. You have in a common cause fought and triumphed together; the independence and liberty you possess are the work of joint counsels, and joint efforts of common dangers, sufferings, and successes."

this was said by George Washington in his Farewell Address. I highly suggest you read the whole thing. He is essentially saying that among the people, there ought be distinctions NOT divisions. The only divisions should be between those who oppose liberty, either internally or externally.

where i bolded: pbeaul never said suggested any of that. All he is saying is that as a nation, we need to set aside our differences for the sake of our nations well being. Just as Washington said, we must be unified. This is how we are to keep our gov't accountable. Like i said, you two are talking about the same thing here.

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The only way to know if he was the answer would be to elect him and try him out. Not to elect the same idiot twice. Terms for the president should be 8 year with an election every 2 years. 4 years is too long IMO


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as a people, we should never have to settle. the presidency is nothing so light that we should elect ppl to "try him out." if you feel like you are settling for a candidate, do not vote for anybody. doing that is not democracy. It is proof of agenda setting by the Republican and Democratic Parties and illustrates how they rig majority votes.

under the constitution, the president isn't intended to be elected by popular opinion in the first place.
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post #79 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-08-2013, 11:06 PM
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C'mon

How many of you are just pissed that you didn't take a government job that allows you to retire at 60 years old and still have full insurance and damned near 80% of your wages each month for life.

Boy are they in for a surprise...

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post #80 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-08-2013, 11:11 PM
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Who was it that wrote that he would rather have tho first 300 names in the phone book represent the people in congress?...

I agree

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post #81 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-08-2013, 11:18 PM
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To put a stop to it, you need to stop this retarded infighting and division that has been going on for nearly a decade now. Obama did this, Bush did that... Blah blah, if only the other guy won. My corrupt party is better than your corrupt party.
You might also have to stop your party from playing santa claus and paying people to sit on their ass. Free cell phone, subsidized life, free rent, free food, etc..

Why should I have to shell out over 50K a year to your voters???!

Oh, that's right, so I can pay for 51% of the people to vote for their free meals.

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post #82 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-09-2013, 01:18 AM
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You might also have to stop your party from playing santa claus and paying people to sit on their ass. Free cell phone, subsidized life, free rent, free food, etc..

Why should I have to shell out over 50K a year to your voters???!

Oh, that's right, so I can pay for 51% of the people to vote for their free meals.
what are you assuming Pbeaul's party is? who is his voters you refer to?
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post #83 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-09-2013, 01:36 AM
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This thread just made me nauseous.


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post #84 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-10-2013, 12:39 PM
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niner, you say partisan talk existed ever since the Constitution but that doesnt make it right.
I never said it was right or wrong. It's the basic structure of our government. It was structure in a manner to make things very tough to get passed.

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this was said by George Washington in his Farewell Address. I highly suggest you read the whole thing. He is essentially saying that among the people, there ought be distinctions NOT divisions. The only divisions should be between those who oppose liberty, either internally or externally.
Maybe we are parsing words here...

I have read the whole thing, I have also read every word of ALL of the federalist papers (many of which I have read multiple times) as well as a LOT of the congressional journals. I would suggest you read them.


Take a step back and look at this in laymens view simply based on the structure of government. This isn't rocket science...

1.)
House is structure based on districts - to allow the elected official to be closer to the people.
Senate is 2 seats per state - this give the legislators some distance from the people, to bring consistency to government.

Obviously these 2 things oppose each other.

2.)
House elections are every 2 years in an effort to keep government "trending" by way of the people that these elected representatives are closest to.
Senate elections are every 6 years, again in an effort to bring stability to congress. So that government doesn't "process" to quickly following a local trend or temporary "fad."

Obviously again, these 2 things very much oppose each other.

3.)
House minimum age is 25 years old, once again to be "trendy" and move with the will of the local people to which they represent.
Senate minimum age is 30 years old, yea... again to bring a mature stability to government to oppose too fast or change to government.

Once again, oppose each other.

This list goes on. The very structure of government is intended to be not only SLOW but tough. This was to prevent the legislative body from RULING over it's populous. If government was all on the same page the founding fathers knew laws would be passed in an abundance which rule the people.

They repeatedly made every effort to fight this. To keep these types of things from happening.

Now, I would argue that in the passed, like under Bush (at least early on) government wasn't as divided as they are not (and they should have been!). Which is what resulted in the laws we have today. HAD government been more divided under Bush (just as an example) we might not be talking about stuff like the NSA spy programs. As it was Bush who greatly expanded these actions. Albeit it with specific targets and intentions, he knew what was to come.

They SHOULD have been more divided which would have prevented the things we have today. But now we are arguing we should be more "together" in order to get rid of these things.

Kind of ironic, no?

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if you feel like you are settling for a candidate, do not vote for anybody. doing that is not democracy.
I agree, but have to point out we aren't a "democracy."


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I never said it was right or wrong. It's the basic structure of our government. It was structure in a manner to make things very tough to get passed.


Maybe we are parsing words here...

I have read the whole thing, I have also read every word of ALL of the federalist papers (many of which I have read multiple times) as well as a LOT of the congressional journals. I would suggest you read them.


Take a step back and look at this in laymens view simply based on the structure of government. This isn't rocket science...

1.)
House is structure based on districts - to allow the elected official to be closer to the people.
Senate is 2 seats per state - this give the legislators some distance from the people, to bring consistency to government.

Obviously these 2 things oppose each other.

2.)
House elections are every 2 years in an effort to keep government "trending" by way of the people that these elected representatives are closest to.
Senate elections are every 6 years, again in an effort to bring stability to congress. So that government doesn't "process" to quickly following a local trend or temporary "fad."

Obviously again, these 2 things very much oppose each other.

3.)
House minimum age is 25 years old, once again to be "trendy" and move with the will of the local people to which they represent.
Senate minimum age is 30 years old, yea... again to bring a mature stability to government to oppose too fast or change to government.

Once again, oppose each other.

This list goes on. The very structure of government is intended to be not only SLOW but tough. This was to prevent the legislative body from RULING over it's populous. If government was all on the same page the founding fathers knew laws would be passed in an abundance which rule the people.

They repeatedly made every effort to fight this. To keep these types of things from happening.

Now, I would argue that in the passed, like under Bush (at least early on) government wasn't as divided as they are not (and they should have been!). Which is what resulted in the laws we have today. HAD government been more divided under Bush (just as an example) we might not be talking about stuff like the NSA spy programs. As it was Bush who greatly expanded these actions. Albeit it with specific targets and intentions, he knew what was to come.

They SHOULD have been more divided which would have prevented the things we have today. But now we are arguing we should be more "together" in order to get rid of these things.

Kind of ironic, no?


I agree, but have to point out we aren't a "democracy."
alright, first off i apologize if i was assuming you weren't well read. the statement was not necessarily for you but for anybody reading this, ya dig?

I don't understand why you think the separation of powers between the three branches of gov't and the distinctions made within them necessitate the division of the masses into minority special interest groups, i.e. political parties.

Maybe we are arguing about different things but I wholeheartedly go along with Pres. Washingtons sentiment that political parties are better off dead.

Edit: and yes, i know we aren't a democracy. but we do vote. maybe i should do a better job of being more thorough in my responses cuz you never cut me any slack niner! bahaha

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post #86 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-10-2013, 03:58 PM
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alright, first off i apologize if i was assuming you weren't well read. the statement was not necessarily for you but for anybody reading this, ya dig?
LMAO!

No apology needed sir! In this day I think it's fair to assume that whomever you might be debating with, isn't well read... Or has any clue as to the topic to which they are debating. I take no offense in your suggestion (<-- although I don't drink... I'll take water )


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I don't understand why you think the separation of powers between the three branches of gov't and the distinctions made within them necessitate the division of the masses into minority special interest groups, i.e. political parties.
It's not about the "separation of powers" it's about the make up or as I used the work "structure" of our government.

In the constitutional convention, they covered this a lot! There are dozens of references to these very topics. About how they (the founders) could have in place a system that would prevent laws being passed over the people.

This was the very intent, that's how and why they created the system to which they did. Not the separation of powers, the "make up" of those holding those powers.

The age difference, the voting public, etc... They knew this would create a divide. Madison felt this "divide" before the legislative branches would limit the laws that the legislative body would be able to pass against the populous.



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Maybe we are arguing about different things but I wholeheartedly go along with Pres. Washingtons sentiment that political parties are better off dead.
I understand the morals behind what you're saying, I'm just pointing out that it's this "alignment" or "coming together" that got us where we are today...

Personally I think it's crucial for the voting public to understand for themselves the intentions of the founding fathers.

As for the partisanship, I only see that getting worse as the public ISN'T informed. Therefore they make their assessments based on that very partisan bickering we see.

For example, we all remember now President Obama talking about how he was going to change the way washington works, he was going to "bring everyone together" and be everyones president. Then comes out and consistantly bashes his opposition. That gives the uninformed reason to believe that he is trying, but his opposition won't go along. Even if they were (or weren't). He's the president! He's going to get their benefit of a doubt.

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Edit: and yes, i know we aren't a democracy. but we do vote. maybe i should do a better job of being more thorough in my responses cuz you never cut me any slack niner! bahaha


LMAO! I know you know, but imagine how many people don't understand or know the difference... I think it's important to TRY to be correct for those whom read these threads but don't speak up in them.


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post #87 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-11-2013, 02:24 AM
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LMAO!

No apology needed sir! In this day I think it's fair to assume that whomever you might be debating with, isn't well read... Or has any clue as to the topic to which they are debating. I take no offense in your suggestion (<-- although I don't drink... I'll take water )



It's not about the "separation of powers" it's about the make up or as I used the work "structure" of our government.

In the constitutional convention, they covered this a lot! There are dozens of references to these very topics. About how they (the founders) could have in place a system that would prevent laws being passed over the people.

This was the very intent, that's how and why they created the system to which they did. Not the separation of powers, the "make up" of those holding those powers.

The age difference, the voting public, etc... They knew this would create a divide. Madison felt this "divide" before the legislative branches would limit the laws that the legislative body would be able to pass against the populous.




I understand the morals behind what you're saying, I'm just pointing out that it's this "alignment" or "coming together" that got us where we are today...

Personally I think it's crucial for the voting public to understand for themselves the intentions of the founding fathers.

As for the partisanship, I only see that getting worse as the public ISN'T informed. Therefore they make their assessments based on that very partisan bickering we see.

For example, we all remember now President Obama talking about how he was going to change the way washington works, he was going to "bring everyone together" and be everyones president. Then comes out and consistantly bashes his opposition. That gives the uninformed reason to believe that he is trying, but his opposition won't go along. Even if they were (or weren't). He's the president! He's going to get their benefit of a doubt.





LMAO! I know you know, but imagine how many people don't understand or know the difference... I think it's important to TRY to be correct for those whom read these threads but don't speak up in them.
You shouldn't cheers with water, don't you know its bad luck? I'll just pretend you used sparkling cider and mispoke ;)

the 1st bolded helps me understand better where you are coming from and i know see your point.

2nd bolded: i agree. the alignment of the uninformed masses has lead to the current state of affairs in which our nation is falling a part. But what i mean by unity is not the same as comformity. Pres. Washington was saying that we should all be united under the precepts of individual liberty against tyranny and oppression. within that unity, distinctions are inevitable and necessary. the sentiments of Pres. Washington that i am advocating are that these distinctions should not be more powerful than our desire to maintain freedom at the expense of no man.

although there were federalists and anti federalists and ppl in between, the first two terms of Pres. Washingtons presidency were absent of any political party holding any coercive power. Although distinctions were made (and some even disagreed so vehemntly that it led to some's demise), those who were involved in politics managed to work together and create/continue a free state. This is the utopia i wish to be a part of.

I am not against differeng opinions. I am only against when those opinions start to trump the ideals of uniformed freedom as they pit one minority against some other.

3rd bolded: i agree with this as well. i believe F. A. hayek stated that when we empower personal opinion, in order to maintain a free state those opinions MUST be informed.

I will do my best to be as correct as possible ;)

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post #88 of 99 (permalink) Old 06-11-2013, 08:50 AM
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You shouldn't cheers with water, don't you know its bad luck? I'll just pretend you used sparkling cider and mispoke ;)
I was not aware of that... LOL

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2nd bolded: i agree. the alignment of the uninformed masses has lead to the current state of affairs in which our nation is falling a part. But what i mean by unity is not the same as comformity. Pres. Washington was saying that we should all be united under the precepts of individual liberty against tyranny and oppression. within that unity, distinctions are inevitable and necessary. the sentiments of Pres. Washington that i am advocating are that these distinctions should not be more powerful than our desire to maintain freedom at the expense of no man.
Yea, I have read GW comments on this but IMO I think he was referring to people coming together for the purpose of what they thought would be good things. BUT, like I said, it was a "coming together" a bipartisan effort that got us the Patriot Act in the first place. And now we expect a coming together to get rid of it.

I'm not saying that politicians shouldn't agree more... I'm just pointing out that this wasn't the intent of the founders. If it was they would have structured congress to be more aligned with one another, as opposed to specifically creating differences in them.

To GW's point, EVERYONE should agree that our civil liberties should be preserved. And I agree with that and I will even go as far to say that there is a little bit of a "coming together" on the NSA and AP stories as it has been getting bipartisan opposition. The sad part it the number of people on EITHER side wanting to dismiss this and other cases like the IRS and Fast & Furious.

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Originally Posted by gveliopoulos View Post
although there were federalists and anti federalists and ppl in between, the first two terms of Pres. Washingtons presidency were absent of any political party holding any coercive power. Although distinctions were made (and some even disagreed so vehemntly that it led to some's demise), those who were involved in politics managed to work together and create/continue a free state. This is the utopia i wish to be a part of.
Absolutely, but you're giving too much credit in the first place to the term "political party." The label put on such a party is meaningless anyway. A conservative in this day is FAR different than it was back then anyway. The values don't align whatsoever!

They just realized they didn't need to be part of one of the big the majority to make a difference... We, the people, NEED to feel we are a part of something. We want to be in "gangs" we want to be in "groups" and it's no different politically. IMO that's why we've gotten in so deep with the 2 LARGE political groups.

Although recently we have been seeing a slight sway from that with conservative and "tea party" groups wanting to show they are different than the new "normal" republican party. Or should I say... Republican party.

But even still you see the need to form an alliance... I guess it's fine, it allows them to get a message out better and gives a feel of legitimacy.


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I was not aware of that... LOL


Yea, I have read GW comments on this but IMO I think he was referring to people coming together for the purpose of what they thought would be good things. BUT, like I said, it was a "coming together" a bipartisan effort that got us the Patriot Act in the first place. And now we expect a coming together to get rid of it.

I'm not saying that politicians shouldn't agree more... I'm just pointing out that this wasn't the intent of the founders. If it was they would have structured congress to be more aligned with one another, as opposed to specifically creating differences in them.

To GW's point, EVERYONE should agree that our civil liberties should be preserved. And I agree with that and I will even go as far to say that there is a little bit of a "coming together" on the NSA and AP stories as it has been getting bipartisan opposition. The sad part it the number of people on EITHER side wanting to dismiss this and other cases like the IRS and Fast & Furious.


Absolutely, but you're giving too much credit in the first place to the term "political party." The label put on such a party is meaningless anyway. A conservative in this day is FAR different than it was back then anyway. The values don't align whatsoever!

They just realized they didn't need to be part of one of the big the majority to make a difference... We, the people, NEED to feel we are a part of something. We want to be in "gangs" we want to be in "groups" and it's no different politically. IMO that's why we've gotten in so deep with the 2 LARGE political groups.

Although recently we have been seeing a slight sway from that with conservative and "tea party" groups wanting to show they are different than the new "normal" republican party. Or should I say... Republican party.

But even still you see the need to form an alliance... I guess it's fine, it allows them to get a message out better and gives a feel of legitimacy.
I think you may be right there. going back to what i quoted earlier, G. Wash only thought this republican style of government could only work under the three pillars of religion, morality, and (something else that i can't remember haha). again, this kind of relates to being informed. I believe this would take us to a whole 'nother topic entirely though.

I one hundred percent agree with you about the coming together on both sides in regards to the scandals. I do believe that once more of this NSA stuff gets leaked, things are going to look very bad for the current admin. I am quite hopefull. I dont know about you, but i really do feel a restoration going on, an ever so subtle one, but i believe its time is near.

well the very namesake of "liberal" and "conservative" are completely the opposite of what they were 200 years ago. liberals were the ones who valued individual liberty and conservatives would have been those who sympathized with the Monarchy! but that's just a difference in association of names, but still noteworthy imo.

There's just something about these alliances that gets to me. I think it most closely relates to my views being a believer in God. I guess this tea party movement and others like it are a good thing but its still so polarizing!once you claim to be a tea partier or a libertarian you immediately invoke judgement onto yourself by others, whether we like it or not because we label ourselves with a specific set of interests. The very nature of politcal parties seems so polarizing and i know you are arguing that it is necessary in order to restrain the gov't from imposing itself on citizens but i think that is still possible without parties. the way i see it, is that we maintain individual interests and that's how keep the government from rapidly legistlating. it doesnt have to be minority collective interests in order for that to work. but i guess you would argue that it is inevitable because of the nature of man to want to be in an alliance like you've already said. you may be right but can you agree that it is at least ideal for there not to be parties? we can discuss the degree of possiblity for this maybe afterwards.

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I think you may be right there. going back to what i quoted earlier, G. Wash only thought this republican style of government could only work under the three pillars of religion, morality, and (something else that i can't remember haha). again, this kind of relates to being informed. I believe this would take us to a whole 'nother topic entirely though.
Yes, the 3rd thing GW believed was crucial was KNOWLEDGE! Remember the founders believed "the people" were to know and understand politics, they were ALL supposed to be knowledgeable in our government. Shame how far we've gone away from that... :(

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I one hundred percent agree with you about the coming together on both sides in regards to the scandals. I do believe that once more of this NSA stuff gets leaked, things are going to look very bad for the current admin. I am quite hopefull.
Well I think you're right, but I'm not hopefully. Anything bad for an administration is bad for the country, but I think I know what you mean! You intend it more as it would be an eye opener for the nation than being against a particular administration, right?

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I dont know about you, but i really do feel a restoration going on, an ever so subtle one, but i believe its time is near.
I hope so sir! I've been trying my hardest to at least get people to THINK!

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well the very namesake of "liberal" and "conservative" are completely the opposite of what they were 200 years ago. liberals were the ones who valued individual liberty and conservatives would have been those who sympathized with the Monarchy! but that's just a difference in association of names, but still noteworthy imo.
Absolutely, and imo the labels mean nothing if your beliefs don't follow suit.

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There's just something about these alliances that gets to me. I think it most closely relates to my views being a believer in God. I guess this tea party movement and others like it are a good thing but its still so polarizing!
I agree with you but I think it's been a defensive mechanism. Unfortunately ever since Obama got elected (the first time) HE has intentionally created a HUGE divide between political beliefs. The good thing is that he has exposed a LOT of people for who they really are!

Now, like I said before, I think a divide was the intention of the founders but that divide was only suppose to be among the elected legislators, not at the level it is today with the entire country. The bashing and criticism of political opponents that yes has gone on forever but took an EXTREME leap once Obama took office is why I think these uprisings of conservative and tea party groups have been so strong. Even moreso than his policies (at least initially, but as of late I think it now only makes these groups stronger!).

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once you claim to be a tea partier or a libertarian you immediately invoke judgement onto yourself by others, whether we like it or not because we label ourselves with a specific set of interests. The very nature of politcal parties seems so polarizing and i know you are arguing that it is necessary in order to restrain the gov't from imposing itself on citizens but i think that is still possible without parties. the way i see it, is that we maintain individual interests and that's how keep the government from rapidly legistlating. it doesnt have to be minority collective interests in order for that to work. but i guess you would argue that it is inevitable because of the nature of man to want to be in an alliance like you've already said. you may be right but can you agree that it is at least ideal for there not to be parties? we can discuss the degree of possiblity for this maybe afterwards.
I agree with you 100%, I think the entire labeling of political groups is ridiculous! Personally I don't think I fit into ANY group. And I would argue that MANY people feel the same way, yet they will put themselves into a group which may only be hurting what they truly believe in.

Yea, I believe the founders wanted division, but not at the "political level" only at the legislative level. I hope that make sense.

They created the structure they did to make policy HARDER. Not to divide people in terms of "politics"

Not sure that is going into words the way I am trying to say it... LMAO!


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