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post #31 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 05:50 PM Thread Starter
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Wow Jbeck you are still here!!!!! Haven't had one of these in awhile. Snopes isn't my go to source for info, I like to read the info myself but if they read the whole bill and they took the time to underline voluntary in it I am sure voluntary is until reasonable suspicion is enough to warrant a search. You can believe Snopes, I am sure you can quote that to someone at your door but there is no one going to be entering my home at any time for any reason without meeting the bad side of me. MY HOME, MY DOMAIN.

You can believe this fairy tale that it's going to be fine, it will all work out. Let me ask you one question.

Name one Government run organization that is functioning today that doesn't run in the red every year? One that stays in the budget that is given yearly. Even funding more every single year they can't run a business successfully.

There isn't one. Until we realize that DC isn't meant to run business's we will not get out of this. We have someone comparing healthcare.gov to Apples release of new opp orating systems? That was a joke right?
Capitalism, open up the insurance make it larger than 5 companies supplying insurance. Make it 500, you can buy anywhere in the country, it will drive cost down, it will make it affordable. If you have a pre-existing illness you are going to pay for it. It sucks, it's like trying to buy life insurance and you have smoked your whole life and you are in bad health, you pay for it. Sucks, life isn't fair, healthcare isn't a right. No matter how you look at it you do not have a right to a doctor taking care of you without payment. If all the doctors said we aren't going to treat anyone you can't make them.




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post #32 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 05:57 PM Thread Starter
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post #33 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 06:02 PM
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I was simply pointing out that the things you posted were false. Snopes may not be your go to website, but there are plenty of others. Just google "does obamacare allow forced home inspections" and then take your pick. Same goes for congress supposedly being "exempt".

Did you miss me?
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post #34 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 06:13 PM Thread Starter
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Yes a little.

I guess we will just have to see who is telling the truth. I don't know who to believe anymore.
It's not good. It's not good at all. That is what I know. There is no such thing as a good program that is forced upon everyone.




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post #35 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 06:14 PM
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Name one Government run organization that is functioning today that doesn't run in the red every year? One that stays in the budget that is given yearly. Even funding more every single year they can't run a business successfully.

There isn't one. Until we realize that DC isn't meant to run business's we will not get out of this. We have someone comparing healthcare.gov to Apples release of new opp orating systems? That was a joke right?
Capitalism, open up the insurance make it larger than 5 companies supplying insurance. Make it 500, you can buy anywhere in the country, it will drive cost down, it will make it affordable.
Obamacare is not a govt takeover of healthcare or socializing medicine. It relies heavily on the private market.

Employers will continue to provide health insurance to the majority of Americans through private insurance companies.

Contrary to the claim, more people will get private health coverage. The law sets up "exchanges" where private insurers will compete to provide coverage to people who don't have it.

The government will not seize control of hospitals or nationalize doctors.

The law does not include the public option, a government-run insurance plan that would have competed with private insurers.

The law gives tax credits to people who have difficulty affording insurance, so they can buy their coverage from private providers on the exchange. But here too, the approach relies on a free market with regulations, not socialized medicine.

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post #36 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 06:15 PM
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Yes a little.
Good to hear. I've missed these chats as well.
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post #37 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 06:21 PM Thread Starter
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Obamacare does not a govt takeover of healthcare or socializing medicine. It relies heavily on the private market.

Employers will continue to provide health insurance to the majority of Americans through private insurance companies.

Contrary to the claim, more people will get private health coverage. The law sets up "exchanges" where private insurers will compete to provide coverage to people who don't have it.

The government will not seize control of hospitals or nationalize doctors.

The law does not include the public option, a government-run insurance plan that would have competed with private insurers.

The law gives tax credits to people who have difficulty affording insurance, so they can buy their coverage from private providers on the exchange. But here too, the approach relies on a free market with regulations, not socialized medicine.
I see this in a business sense. The government is forcing insurance companies to accept those that are high risk. Those that will cost their business and clients more money. So everyone they insure their cost go up, right? Now the more and more of those that sign up on there the higher and higher the prices go, but there is a limit on how high that price can be, right? So once that price is reached and the business's aren't making any money then they are going to close down and go to one of the others until there is only 1-2 left and by this time prices will all be capped for their group and they will all close "leaving someone to step in and provide for all".

They can't make money, business's need to make money.




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post #38 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 06:28 PM
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I see this in a business sense. The government is forcing insurance companies to accept those that are high risk. Those that will cost their business and clients more money. So everyone they insure their cost go up, right? Now the more and more of those that sign up on there the higher and higher the prices go, but there is a limit on how high that price can be, right? So once that price is reached and the business's aren't making any money then they are going to close down and go to one of the others until there is only 1-2 left and by this time prices will all be capped for their group and they will all close "leaving someone to step in and provide for all".

They can't make money, business's need to make money.
I agree, there are going to be high risk people. But there are going to be FAR MORE people that are not high risk that sign up than there are high risk people. These insurance companies are going to get MILLIONS of new customers paying them. Sure, some of them are going to cost them money because of pre-existing conditions, etc. But those millions that don't have a pre-existing condition will more than make up the cost. Insurance companies are going to see bigger profits. If I had the money, I'd be investing it into anything that has to do with healthcare because of these millions of new customers that are going to be entering the system.

That's how I look at it.
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post #39 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 06:37 PM Thread Starter
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I agree, there are going to be high risk people. But there are going to be FAR MORE people that are not high risk that sign up than there are high risk people. These insurance companies are going to get MILLIONS of new customers paying them. Sure, some of them are going to cost them money because of pre-existing conditions, etc. But those millions that don't have a pre-existing condition will more than make up the cost. Insurance companies are going to see bigger profits. If I had the money, I'd be investing it into anything that has to do with healthcare because of these millions of new customers that are going to be entering the system.

That's how I look at it.
They aren't going to see the money because people aren't going to pay the higher prices. I have seen 3x the price increase in healthcare. I have seen these numbers. People aren't going to pay for this. It's too much money. The cost don't add up for those that don't go to the doctor and don't get sick. Not worth it to pay 8-10,000 a year for something you don't use.




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post #40 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 06:40 PM
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So your primary reason for being against obamacare is your fear that this will cut into the profit margin of multibillon dollar insurance companies?
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post #41 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 06:48 PM Thread Starter
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No my primary concern is being forced to purchase something regardless of my statues. It's not anyone's job to force an individual to buy anything!!!!!!!


If that's the case I don't believe anyone in DC or State office should be paid salary. Let's pay them for what they work, they get bumped to hourly and lets see how much work gets done in a year.




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post #42 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 06:49 PM
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They aren't going to see the money because people aren't going to pay the higher prices. I have seen 3x the price increase in healthcare. I have seen these numbers. People aren't going to pay for this. It's too much money. The cost don't add up for those that don't go to the doctor and don't get sick. Not worth it to pay 8-10,000 a year for something you don't use.
Higher prices compared to what? These healthcare exchanges are for people that don't have insurance or can't get it through an employer. My wife personally knows someone that has already signed up. When she looked into going out and buying health insurance on her own, $1350 + per month. In the exchanges? Around $250 a month.

I just found one of those subsidy calculators online. A family of 4 with an annual income of around $50,000 would pay out of pocket premiums of $280 per month. Of course, these costs vary greatly by state. What's been found is that states whose governments went all in on creating their exchanges are seeing lower costs for their citizens. States governments that protested against it, mostly those with Repub governors, by refusing to establish the exchanges are seeing higher costs for their citizens because of a lack of options.

Look, here's my deal. Is Obamacare perfect? No, absolutely not. But the fact is that our healthcare system was broken. Healthcare reform has been brought up for decades. Finally, it gets done. But before it's even fully implemented you have people saying its a failure. this law is going to be amended and changed many times. But saying that it just needs to be fully repealed is crazy. Why? so we can go back to the way things were? No thanks.

As for the increased prices, I have not seen them. Actually, the insurance premiums at my employer haven't gone up one penny for 2 straight years.
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post #43 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 06:51 PM
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No my primary concern is being forced to purchase something regardless of my statues. It's not anyone's job to force an individual to buy anything!!!!!!!
I'd be fine with removing the mandate to purchase insurance. But then when someone without insurance comes to the doctor with a broken arm that they need fixed, they either pay the bill in cash up front or they get no healthcare for it.
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post #44 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 06:56 PM Thread Starter
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I'd be fine with removing the mandate to purchase insurance. But then when someone without insurance comes to the doctor with a broken arm that they need fixed, they either pay the bill in cash up front or they get no healthcare for it.
I am all for this!!!! Don't force me and my family to do anything that is all I want.




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post #45 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 06:57 PM
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No my primary concern is being forced to purchase something regardless of my statues. It's not anyone's job to force an individual to buy anything!!!!!!!


If that's the case I don't believe anyone in DC or State office should be paid salary. Let's pay them for what they work, they get bumped to hourly and lets see how much work gets done in a year.
You don't have to purchase insurance if you can't find "affordable" insurance.
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post #46 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 06:58 PM Thread Starter
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Higher prices compared to what? These healthcare exchanges are for people that don't have insurance or can't get it through an employer. My wife personally knows someone that has already signed up. When she looked into going out and buying health insurance on her own, $1350 + per month. In the exchanges? Around $250 a month.

I just found one of those subsidy calculators online. A family of 4 with an annual income of around $50,000 would pay out of pocket premiums of $280 per month. Of course, these costs vary greatly by state. What's been found is that states whose governments went all in on creating their exchanges are seeing lower costs for their citizens. States governments that protested against it, mostly those with Repub governors, by refusing to establish the exchanges are seeing higher costs for their citizens because of a lack of options.

Look, here's my deal. Is Obamacare perfect? No, absolutely not. But the fact is that our healthcare system was broken. Healthcare reform has been brought up for decades. Finally, it gets done. But before it's even fully implemented you have people saying its a failure. this law is going to be amended and changed many times. But saying that it just needs to be fully repealed is crazy. Why? so we can go back to the way things were? No thanks.

As for the increased prices, I have not seen them. Actually, the insurance premiums at my employer haven't gone up one penny for 2 straight years.
I haven't heard of anyone's insurance not going up in 2 years. Your employer has been covering that, I will bet my bottom dollar on that.




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post #47 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 07:00 PM
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I am all for this!!!! Don't force me and my family to do anything that is all I want.
So you must have alot of money saved up for an emergency then should, god forbid, something bad happen that would rack up some major medical bills?

Would you be fine taking your child (not sure if you have any or not) to the doctor only to be told you need to give them $3,000, or whatever it costs, to fix a broken arm, leg, or anything like that? Would you be fine being turned away if you didn't have the money?
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post #48 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 07:02 PM
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I haven't heard of anyone's insurance not going up in 2 years. Your employer has been covering that, I will bet my bottom dollar on that.
We have meetings yearly discussing just that, and no, my employer has not kicked up what they are covering.

Not saying this is the norm, but it's my experience.

Also, if some people's costs are, in fact, going up, why is it Obamacare's fault? Pretty sure insurance premium costs had been rising for many years BEFORE Obamacare was passed. That's like saying an ongoing problem at my work is my fault even though it was going on before i started working there.
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post #49 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 07:04 PM
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I haven't heard of anyone's insurance not going up in 2 years. Your employer has been covering that, I will bet my bottom dollar on that.
Insurance has been going up before obamacare. It will most likely continue to go up. The same way that all prices tend to rise over time. I'm not sure how this can be used as a talking point against obamacare.
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post #50 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 07:07 PM
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I feel like we should have some kind of fact based obamacare primer that quickly outlines the major points.

I hear a lot of fear and worry that doesn't seem to be wholly justified by what the bill actually says.
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post #51 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 07:08 PM Thread Starter
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I didn't say anything about obamacare on that. I know prices go up I deal with this daily running a business. Just wondering how his has gone up in 2 years!!




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post #52 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 07:09 PM Thread Starter
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I feel like we should have some kind of fact based obamacare primer that quickly outlines the major points.

I hear a lot of fear and worry that doesn't seem to be wholly justified by what the bill actually says.
With thousands and thousands of pages no one person will know what it actually says. It's going to take a long time to figure things out but I am sure there are loopholes in there just like everything else.




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post #53 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 07:16 PM
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With thousands and thousands of pages no one person will know what it actually says. It's going to take a long time to figure things out but I am sure there are loopholes in there just like everything else.
How can you be against something and not know what it says?

It's like saying, "I hate chocolate but I've never eaten it. I've just heard bad things."

Also in case you do want to read it - http://obamacarefacts.com/obamacarebill.pdf

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post #54 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 07:21 PM
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Here's the actual bill if anyone cares to see it. It's 906 pages.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-1...1hr3590enr.pdf
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post #55 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 07:27 PM Thread Starter
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Let's get this clear. I am against the whole thing because it's mandated. I do not want to be told something I have to purchase just because I exist. Everyone should fear this and what the future might be for something else you must purchase.




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post #56 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 08:12 PM
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You don't have to purchase it. You can opt out if there are no affordable options for you.

If that is truly your only concern then it's unwarranted.

You are against something for a reason that is invalid because you never read the bill or took the time to research it yourself. It sounds like you let somebody else do your thinking for you.

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post #57 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 09:15 PM Thread Starter
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You don't have to purchase it. You can opt out if there are no affordable options for you.

If that is truly your only concern then it's unwarranted.

You are against something for a reason that is invalid because you never read the bill or took the time to research it yourself. It sounds like you let somebody else do your thinking for you.

You are seeing this today, I am looking another year-two-three in advance. I have read enough to understand what generally what it means. Unless you are a lawyer or a lobbyist you don't know what the law says. There is so much back and forth subsection this to paragraph that you have to be an expert to know exactly how it all works so don't pretend to be some law expert and you understand what it all means, because those that signed the law don't even know all the in's/out's. I see this from a business stance and I know for a fact this will not work. There is a breaking point in the business world that they will not take on more because the loss is too great. Remember the housing bubble. Think of this as a healthcare bubble. When more people are insured than can pay the bills the company will go under. They will sell their clients to another company until the last one remains. When that one falls someone has to take on all the clients. Who do you think that will be?

Just watch and see. I am not claiming to know it all but I do know there isn't enough money/people to support those who can't/won't support themselves.




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The government is just tightening things more and more. At points is doesn't matter what it is. It may seem good in a way but in others it's socialism. For instance when the law came out that you can't smoke in public places. The government is literally telling you it is illegal to do something legal. That's one of the problems. If the bill passes then that's another thing they can control. We basically becoming puppets and it's becoming a soon to be communist country.


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tripage (10-03-2013)
post #59 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 10:06 PM
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You don't have to purchase it. You can opt out if there are no affordable options for you.
Yes... And be fined.

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post #60 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 10:31 PM
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It's like saying, "I hate chocolate but I've never eaten it. I've just heard bad things."
Not very many people have eaten sh!t. If a person have not tried it, does that mean that it could be good? Government run healthcare, it's like something that comes out of Uranus. Don't have to try it to know it's something bad. Where do you ever see quality and efficiency in a government product? We don't have to look very far to see how bad it can get. Look at Medicare and see how efficient it is.


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