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post #61 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 01:44 AM
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You are seeing this today, I am looking another year-two-three in advance. I have read enough to understand what generally what it means. Unless you are a lawyer or a lobbyist you don't know what the law says. There is so much back and forth subsection this to paragraph that you have to be an expert to know exactly how it all works so don't pretend to be some law expert and you understand what it all means, because those that signed the law don't even know all the in's/out's. I see this from a business stance and I know for a fact this will not work. There is a breaking point in the business world that they will not take on more because the loss is too great. Remember the housing bubble. Think of this as a healthcare bubble. When more people are insured than can pay the bills the company will go under. They will sell their clients to another company until the last one remains. When that one falls someone has to take on all the clients. Who do you think that will be?

Just watch and see. I am not claiming to know it all but I do know there isn't enough money/people to support those who can't/won't support themselves.
Housing bubble and this healthcare issue are unrelated and not analogous. Also I find it interesting that to "prove" your point you use an industry that was unregulated and driven by the free market that almost crashed our global financial market and was bailed out by the government.

You admit to 1. Not reading it. 2. Claiming it's too complex to understand. But you know for a fact it will not work?

Sorry but that doesn't make any sense.
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post #62 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 01:45 AM
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post #63 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 01:55 AM
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Not very many people have eaten sh!t. If a person have not tried it, does that mean that it could be good? Government run healthcare, it's like something that comes out of Uranus. Don't have to try it to know it's something bad. Where do you ever see quality and efficiency in a government product? We don't have to look very far to see how bad it can get. Look at Medicare and see how efficient it is.


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Who provides the insurance? The government or private insurance companies?

I'd further go on to say that the government, the US government is a reflection of the citizens good and bad.

People passionately argue and take a position without bothering to read the bill or use facts to discuss the issue. Is it any wonder that the government is inefficient?
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post #64 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 02:03 AM
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People passionately argue and take a position without bothering to read the bill or use facts to discuss the issue. Is it any wonder that the government is inefficient?
I wish the lawmakers would bother to read the bill before they signed it into law. Oh wait, we have to pass it to find out what's in it.

Have you read the bill in its entirety?


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post #65 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 02:27 AM
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1. It's the law and has been since 2010 when it was originally signed.
2. You can read the full act. There are two links in this thread alone.
3. I've read over the sections germane to the provisions. Administrative parts I've skimmed ie sections where they define things like font sizes and maximum page length.

edit: full disclosure I originally started looking at it because I believed that it was socialized medicine and it was going to be a disaster. After studying it I realized my initial contempt for the bill was misplaced.

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post #66 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 08:00 AM Thread Starter
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Housing bubble and this healthcare issue are unrelated and not analogous. Also I find it interesting that to "prove" your point you use an industry that was unregulated and driven by the free market that almost crashed our global financial market and was bailed out by the government.

You admit to 1. Not reading it. 2. Claiming it's too complex to understand. But you know for a fact it will not work?

Sorry but that doesn't make any sense.
I admit I didn't read the whole thing because I would have had to go back and forth 1000 times to know what subsection 2b of paragraph 4 said to know what it was actually saying.

So you believe the housing bubble was the banks fault right? Just to make sure I understand you correctly because I was purchasing a house during this time.
If you use the same logic in thinking about it. When government told the banks you can't refuse these people who apply and don't worry we will back this loan of coarse they did what they were told to do. The guy that works at mickey D's making $8 an hour can't afford a house. The numbers don't add up but he was approved for a nice balloon/Arm loan because it was backed by the government. Just like NO ONE will be refused coverage because of pre-existing condition and the cost will cap at a certain amount because it has to be fair. Just wait, it's not going to happen overnight but the more that get into this the more that will be pushed to the next insurance company. I will update when the first one fails, you can count on it.

If this worked then there would already be a company that accepts all applications regardless and charges a nice middle high number to all that apply. The risk are higher than the number coming in, it's simple. We can't insure everyone for a lower cost or even a small increase in price.

It's not government run now, but they will have to step in and take it over because others are just charging too much and can't stay in business because the overhead is too high.




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post #67 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 10:27 AM
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For me, it's scary to think that the government think that it can make better decisions for my needs, especially healthcare, instead of me. This new healthcare program is just another step in the trend of dependency on the government for this country. This is exactly where politicians want us.


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post #68 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 11:17 AM
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This is not a joke, the healthcare.gov phone number is 1-800-FUCKYO

http://dailycaller.com/2013/10/03/ne...ional-hotline/

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post #69 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 11:41 AM
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This is not a joke, the healthcare.gov phone number is 1-800-FUCKYO

http://dailycaller.com/2013/10/03/ne...ional-hotline/
Not gonna lie, that's HILARIOUS!
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post #70 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 11:44 AM
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So you believe the housing bubble was the banks fault right? Just to make sure I understand you correctly because I was purchasing a house during this time.
If you use the same logic in thinking about it. When government told the banks you can't refuse these people who apply and don't worry we will back this loan of coarse they did what they were told to do. The guy that works at mickey D's making $8 an hour can't afford a house. The numbers don't add up but he was approved for a nice balloon/Arm loan because it was backed by the government.
Do you have any proof - legislation, citable document links etc. that back your assertion that the "government told the banks you can't refuse these people and don't worry we will back this loan of coarse(sic)".
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post #71 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 11:47 AM
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For me, it's scary to think that the government think that it can make better decisions for my needs, especially healthcare, instead of me. This new healthcare program is just another step in the trend of dependency on the government for this country. This is exactly where politicians want us.
Do you have health insurance now?
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post #72 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 11:50 AM
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Do you have health insurance now?
I do. My premiums decreased by $20 a month, but my deductible is now 13x higher than it used to be

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post #73 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 12:02 PM
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I do. My premiums decreased by $20 a month, but my deductible is now 13x higher than it used to be
My premiums nor my deductible has gone up for 2 years.
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post #74 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 01:22 PM
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Lucky you.

As of the beginning of the year, my deductible is increasing 250%, and my co-pay is going up by a maximum of 1000%

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post #75 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 01:43 PM
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Lucky you.

As of the beginning of the year, my deductible is increasing 250%, and my co-pay is going up by a maximum of 1000%
Well that's just ridiculous. I've heard of them going up, but not by THAT much. Did your employer cut the percentage that they cover? If not, your employer should be doing more to keep costs down for it's employees. Not saying cover a higher % or anything. But there are steps they can take to limit price increases. My employer enrolls us into a health program. Once a year we have to get an in depth physical. They run all kinds of blood tests, etc. It doesn't cost us a dime for it. This gives us a discount. Also, if we are non smokers, which I am, it gives us a discount as well. There are lots of similar programs that insurers offer that employers can enroll in to help keep costs down. I really see no reason an employer shouldn't partake in one of these health programs.
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post #76 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 01:59 PM
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My employer takes care of us better than most. He covers 100% of our premiums, no deductible, no co-pay, usually prescriptions are in the $5-15 range.

Due to the ACA regulations, BCBS is no longer allowed to offer zero dollar deductibles since everyone needs to pay their share. Now if I go in, I have a $250/1000 deductible/co-pay.


***Don't mistake this for me being disgruntled. I know I have it a lot better than most. I can only imagine what it must be like for others with higher premiums/deductibles/co-pays/etc. I'm a firm believer that we need healthcare reform, I just don't think this is the correct way to go about it.

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post #77 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 02:01 PM
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If anyone wants to take the time out of their day and read an eye opening article about the US Healthcare industry, I highly recommend this....

http://livingwithmcl.com/BitterPill.pdf

It's from Time magazine, and is a little long, but it really shines a spotlight on some areas that really need to be addressed.

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post #78 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 03:05 PM
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My employer takes care of us better than most. He covers 100% of our premiums, no deductible, no co-pay, usually prescriptions are in the $5-15 range.

Due to the ACA regulations, BCBS is no longer allowed to offer zero dollar deductibles since everyone needs to pay their share. Now if I go in, I have a $250/1000 deductible/co-pay.


***Don't mistake this for me being disgruntled. I know I have it a lot better than most. I can only imagine what it must be like for others with higher premiums/deductibles/co-pays/etc. I'm a firm believer that we need healthcare reform, I just don't think this is the correct way to go about it.
Well your first comment saying your stuff was going up 250% and 1000% is pretty misleading then. Of course it's going to be a large % increase when you pay zero. Like you said, you still have it better than most.
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post #79 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 04:34 PM Thread Starter
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Do you have any proof - legislation, citable document links etc. that back your assertion that the "government told the banks you can't refuse these people and don't worry we will back this loan of coarse(sic)".
Let's see. I was approved for a mortgage payment that was 90% of my bring home pay. I along with many others were approved for much more than I could afford. I have proof that this happened to more than me at the time and from different banks at the same time.

I was a bar tender at the time and didn't show any proof of my wages, only wrote down what I made the previous year.




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post #80 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 06:48 PM
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post #81 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 07:50 PM
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Let's see. I was approved for a mortgage payment that was 90% of my bring home pay. I along with many others were approved for much more than I could afford. I have proof that this happened to more than me at the time and from different banks at the same time.

I was a bar tender at the time and didn't show any proof of my wages, only wrote down what I made the previous year.
That's not proof that the government said to give you the loan nor is it proof that the government ever gave any approval for a bailout. If the government told financial insinuations that they would be bailed out prior to the bubble bursting why did Lehman Brothers and Bear Stearn go bankrupt?

The government was forced to bailout the financial industry because subprime mortgages were largely unregulated allowing for conditions like the housing bubble to exist. Just to be super clear here it was the lack of government oversight that contributed to this.
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post #82 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-04-2013, 12:09 AM Thread Starter
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Remember Fanny and Freddie? They held these mortgages, a huge majority of them because they were backed by the government.

Sited from wikipedia

Observers and analysts have attributed the reasons for the 2001-2006 housing bubble and its 2007-10 collapse in the United States to "everyone from home buyers to Wall Street, mortgage brokers to Alan Greenspan".[3] Other factors that are named include "Mortgage underwriters, investment banks, rating agencies, and investors",[4] "low mortgage interest rates, low short-term interest rates, relaxed standards for mortgage loans, and irrational exuberance"[5] Politicians in both the Democratic and Republican political parties have been cited for "pushing to keep derivatives unregulated" and "with rare exceptions" giving Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac "unwavering support".[6]


The federal takeover of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac refers to the placing into conservatorship of government sponsored enterprises Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by the U.S. Treasury in September 2008. It was one of the financial events among many in the ongoing subprime mortgage crisis.

On September 6, 2008, the director of the Federal Housing Finance Agency (FHFA), James B. Lockhart III, announced his decision to place two Government sponsored enterprises (GSEs), Fannie Mae (Federal National Mortgage Association) and Freddie Mac (Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation), into conservatorship run by the FHFA.[1][2][3]

At the same press conference, United States Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson, stated that placing the two GSEs into conservatorship was a decision he fully supported, and that he advised "that conservatorship was the only form in which I would commit taxpayer money to the GSEs." He further said that "I attribute the need for today's action primarily to the inherent conflict and flawed business model embedded in the GSE structure, and to the ongoing housing correction."[1]

The same day, Federal Reserve Bank chairman Ben Bernanke stated in support: "I strongly endorse both the decision by FHFA Director Lockhart to place Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac into conservatorship and the actions taken by Treasury Secretary Paulson to ensure the financial soundness of those two companies."[4] The following day, Herbert M. Allison was appointed chief executive of Fannie Mae. He came from TIAA-CREF.[5]




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post #83 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-04-2013, 12:27 AM
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When and why did Fed bailout Fannie and Freddie? After bear stearn and Lehman fell.

Fannie and Freddie got bailed out with other US banks when it became clear AIG might go under as well. Per your Wikipedia citation the government pushed for non regulation. Just to be super clear -
non regulation is letting business do what it sees is best fit to make a profit without interference from a central government.

The lack of positive government oversight/regulation led in part to the sub prime housing bubble, Fannie and Freddie were not the only institutions caught in the sub prime debacle. Almost every major financial institution world wide got caught in it regardless of their affiliation or lack thereof to the US government.

Barclays, credit Suisse, HSBC. Non US banks conservatively had exposure to the subprime lending bubble northwards of 100 billon. Do you really think the US government sent RBC a legal document that said that the US would cover any exposure to subprime mortgages defaults?

Do you have a clear understanding of what would have happened if AIG went bankrupt and how the impacts of letting all the major US banks go bankrupt would have done to the worldwide economy? Do you understand how it happened and how the lack of regulation not regulation itself by the US government helped in part to contribute to this financial catastrophe?

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post #84 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-04-2013, 09:29 AM Thread Starter
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Stay with me on this, I know it's long and has a lot of info.

Too big to fail, right? No limit of funds. What gain do they have to give unlimited funds to a company just to keep them afloat? You really believe they have nothing to gain from this or GM or Healthcare? Take the same thing that happened to Fanny/freddy in Oct 2000 and put the top 5 health insurance companies in their place and change the date to Oct 2013

In 2008 alone, the United States government allocated over $900 billion to special loans and rescues related to the US housing bubble, with over half going to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (both of which are government-sponsored enterprises) as well as the Federal Housing Administration (which is a United States Government agency).[12] On December 24, 2009, the Treasury Department made an unprecedented announcement that it would be providing Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac unlimited financial support for the next three years[13] despite acknowledging losses in excess of $400 billion so far.[14] The Treasury has been criticized for encroaching on spending powers that are enumerated for Congress alone by the US constitution, and for violating limits imposed by the Housing and Economic Recovery Act of 2008.[15]

Read this again and remember they are now a GSE(2008) then read the bottom one from 2000 when they weren't a GSE.


Just to give you some point on this:
WASHINGTON - The U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development today announced new federal regulations that require the nation's two largest housing finance companies to buy $2.4 trillion in mortgages during the next 10 years to provide affordable housing for about 28.1 million low- and moderate-income families.

Read this from 2000
http://archives.hud.gov/news/2000/pr00-317.html




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post #85 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-04-2013, 12:56 PM
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post #86 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-04-2013, 02:10 PM
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Stay with me on this, I know it's long and has a lot of info.

Too big to fail, right? No limit of funds. What gain do they have to give unlimited funds to a company just to keep them afloat? You really believe they have nothing to gain from this or GM or Healthcare? Take the same thing that happened to Fanny/freddy in Oct 2000 and put the top 5 health insurance companies in their place and change the date to Oct 2013

In 2008 alone, the United States government allocated over $900 billion to special loans and rescues related to the US housing bubble, with over half going to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (both of which are government-sponsored enterprises) as well as the Federal Housing Administration (which is a United States Government agency).[12] On December 24, 2009, the Treasury Department made an unprecedented announcement that it would be providing Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac unlimited financial support for the next three years[13] despite acknowledging losses in excess of $400 billion so far.[14] The Treasury has been criticized for encroaching on spending powers that are enumerated for Congress alone by the US constitution, and for violating limits imposed by the Housing and Economic Recovery Act of 2008.[15]

Read this again and remember they are now a GSE(2008) then read the bottom one from 2000 when they weren't a GSE.


Just to give you some point on this:
WASHINGTON - The U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development today announced new federal regulations that require the nation's two largest housing finance companies to buy $2.4 trillion in mortgages during the next 10 years to provide affordable housing for about 28.1 million low- and moderate-income families.

Read this from 2000
http://archives.hud.gov/news/2000/pr00-317.html
- Fannie and Freddie Mac are GSEs, 2008 didn't change that. The subprime lending crisis forced the government to put them both into a conservatorship.

- The article you cite is isn't quite the smoking gun you believe it to be. That's what Fannie and Freddie were set out to do, in part, when they were created. Without some digging you should be able to find similar documents, initiatives that stretch all the way back to the founding of both agencies.

-Fannie/Freddie were part of the subprime mortgage crisis but were not the only banks. The banks involved in the crisis were global.

- The US government hasn't, wouldn't, and, didn't, guarantee lending made by foreign banks nor did it require foreign banks to do so.

- The use of the subprime crisis as a token warning against obamacare is not supported by facts. You can't take the top 5 largest banks and then replace then with the top 5 insurance companies and change the year because it doesn't make sense. There is no analogy or comparison to be made that favors your position.

Your specific reasons against obamacare seem to have have shifted over the course of this discussion as each of your initial talking points become untenable.

The only thing that appears consistent is your fear of the government and fear of government intervention and it seems that a large part of your fear is based in emotion rather than fact. I'm not saying the government does everything right nor am I saying the government doesn't do things that should cause us concern.

What I'd suggest is that the thing you should fear more is a disenfranchised and ignorant electorate that don't have the desire or ability to acquire a comprehensive understanding on a particular issue, being led by those with the most strident voices espousing ideas and positions ardently using emotion without facts.

Cheers.
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post #87 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-04-2013, 03:21 PM Thread Starter
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I fear an arrogant elected more than anything. One who's head is so big he thinks he can do anything. If something goes wrong it's never his fault. F it. Pass it and let it fail. But don't say it's not his fault it has his name on it.

My talking point remains. It won't work, the math doesn't work, the masses don't want it.
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post #88 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-04-2013, 05:09 PM
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I already know it's Bush's fault WHEN this fails.

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post #89 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-04-2013, 06:53 PM
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I already know it's Bush's fault WHEN this fails.
Can I borrow your time machine?
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post #90 of 102 (permalink) Old 10-04-2013, 08:08 PM
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It's call forecasting. You use historical data to predict the future.

Pretty much everything has been Bush's fault, probably be the same again.

I see more people coming to the U.S. from countries such as Canada than the other way around with the current system, yet we want to go in the same direction as these countries. One of two things will fail: 1) quality of healthcare 2) cost of healthcare. With the government involve, will probably be BOTH.

I grew up in a communist country. The Government is NOT your best friend when they have too much power folks. Doesn't matter which type (communist, socialist, or democracy), when they have more power, you will have less. I don't know about you, but I would rather be in control than be controlled. Giving government control of our healthcare is giving them more power.


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