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post #31 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 02:49 PM
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post #32 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 03:07 PM
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I'm a little disappointed guys. Ok disappointed probably isn't the right word but I'm definitely concerned. Every day, all throughout the forums, I find myself thinking how intelligent the members here are. But this thread has me a little worried.

You guys don't actually think there's any difference between the republicans and the democrats do you? They're all the same. When it comes to how best to screw the American people is when they really start working together but there is very little difference between them in general.

They might differ on trivial issues such as abortion, immigration, gay rights, and healthcare but when it comes to things that really matter, they always vote against the interest of us citizens. And that's because they're voting in the interest of big business, lobbyists, the military industrial complex, etc, and now the healthcare industrial complex.

Don't think for one second this whole healthcare reform bs is to help out the average person. Its to line the pockets of the huuuuge healthcare industry and to put our medical info under the all seeing watchful eye of the government.
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post #33 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 03:10 PM
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I'm a little disappointed guys. Ok disappointed probably isn't the right word but I'm definitely concerned. Every day, all throughout the forums, I find myself thinking how intelligent the members here are. But this thread has me a little worried.

You guys don't actually think there's any difference between the republicans and the democrats do you? They're all the same. When it comes to how best to screw the American people is when they really start working together but there is very little difference between them in general.

They might differ on trivial issues such as abortion, immigration, gay rights, and healthcare but when it comes to things that really matter, they always vote against the interest of us citizens. And that's because they're voting in the interest of big business, lobbyists, the military industrial complex, etc, and now the healthcare industrial complex.

Don't think for one second this whole healthcare reform bs is to help out the average person. Its to line the pockets of the huuuuge healthcare industry and to put our medical info under the all seeing watchful eye of the government.

If you honestly believe that the govt has NOT A SINGLE interest in helping it's citizens, you might as well move to a different country. I know I would if I felt that way. I'm also assuming you never vote then as well. What would be the point of that......

Also, thank you for questioning my/our intelligence because of our beliefs.
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post #34 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 04:38 PM
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I will agree that there's no fundamental difference between the Dems & Repubs. They pay lip service to slightly different enablers but are pretty much the same. All about money & power. How to generate enough of the former to ensure the latter. This shutdown is just a pissing match between them. We're not getting much out of it whichever side may win this skirmish.
I feel the R's were stupid to let their opposition to Ocare go to shutdown. It's a big play for something that has enough of it's own problems to be sorted out one way or another. I could see such a stand over the debt ceiling. That, the budget, & the deficit is something nobody's addressed seriously. I got a compromise I'd be happy if they agreed to. The Repubs agree to pass a clean CR for a revival of the balanced budget amendment. Get moving on that and it will be the framework for how we tackle everything else.
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post #35 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 04:42 PM
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I got a compromise I'd be happy if they agreed to. The Repubs agree to pass a clean CR for a revival of the balanced budget amendment. Get moving on that and it will be the framework for how we tackle everything else.
^^^^^^This.
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post #36 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 06:04 PM
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I love to see Dem's who refuse to compromise call out the Republican's for refusing to compromise.

Explain to me what the Dem's are offering as a compromise? Your quick to say the Rep's won't yet slow to say what the Dem's have offered?


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post #37 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 06:10 PM
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Blah blah blah blah.
Yep, as expected.
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post #38 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 06:17 PM
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Yep, as expected.
What's the matter? You hate facts? They screw up your attempted logic?

Also, please don't falsely quote me.
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post #39 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 06:23 PM
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I love to see Dem's who refuse to compromise call out the Republican's for refusing to compromise.

Explain to me what the Dem's are offering as a compromise? Your quick to say the Rep's won't yet slow to say what the Dem's have offered?
All you had to do was ask. No one has even bothered up to this point.

They've already said pass a clean bill to end the govt shutdown and they will negotiate on spending cuts and removing a medical device tax.

All the dems want is to end this shutdown. All the republicans want is.......well, something. they just don't know what. they just want the democrats to give them anything at this point so they don't look stupid when a clean bill is passed ending the shutdown when the exact same thing could have been passed preventing it entirely.

They've continually tried and failed to defund the ACA and now since they've been unsuccessful everytime, they've held the jobs of thousands of people hostage to try and get their way. Sad really.
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post #40 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 06:39 PM
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All you had to do was ask. No one has even bothered up to this point.

They've already said pass a clean bill to end the govt shutdown and they will negotiate on spending cuts and removing a medical device tax.

All the dems want is to end this shutdown. All the republicans want is.......well, something. they just don't know what. they just want the democrats to give them anything at this point so they don't look stupid when a clean bill is passed ending the shutdown when the exact same thing could have been passed preventing it entirely.

They've continually tried and failed to defund the ACA and now since they've been unsuccessful everytime, they've held the jobs of thousands of people hostage to try and get their way. Sad really.
You make a lot of assumptions.

All the dems want is to end this shutdown? Yet they are part of the reason its happening.

The dems and Obama will stop at nothing to implement and fund a health care system that 70% of the nation doesn't want and ALL of the politicians Obama included have opted out of.

So it's pretty safe to say that all the Dems want is to push their own agenda regardless of what the people of America and anyone with a brain capable of logical thinking want.

You sit there and act like the Dem's are some noble group of people just trying to do whats best. If that was actually the case they would be just as much against ACA as the Rep's.

This country is circling the drain and we have a congress and president who are steering it towards the drain instead of against it.

The only people who support the ACA or Obamacare are the morons who don't know there isn't a difference between the two, we live in the most uneducated uninformed country in the world. Which is exactly what the dem's and Obama want. The stupider the people the easier it is to pull one over on them.

Go ahead and continue supporting a party and president who believe that they can borrow themselves out of debt. Let's see how well that works out for us.

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post #41 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 07:05 PM
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All the dems want is to end this shutdown? Yet they are part of the reason its happening.
Yes, shame on them for passing a healthcare reform bill that the republicans didn't like and could use a govt shutdown as a bargaining chip to try and defund it.

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The dems and Obama will stop at nothing to implement and fund a health care system that 70% of the nation doesn't want and ALL of the politicians Obama included have opted out of.
Where did you see this? If 70% of the nation did not want it, I think that Mitt probably would be in the White House right now. Also, with all the people signing up for it in the opening days, it sure seems like there's plenty of people that DO want it.

Also, who are these politicians that are opting out of it? They'll be sorely disappointed when they realize that they are required to get their health insurance through the exchanges.

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So it's pretty safe to say that all the Dems want is to push their own agenda regardless of what the people of America and anyone with a brain capable of logical thinking want.

You sit there and act like the Dem's are some noble group of people just trying to do whats best. If that was actually the case they would be just as much against ACA as the Rep's.
Accusing people who think differently than you of being incapable of logical thinking.....nice. That's always a valid argument.

I don't think the Dems are some noble group of people. Their ideologies just line up better with mine than the Republicans do. They feel that extending healthcare to millions of people that couldn't afford it before the ACA is a noble thing. Sorry that you don't. While the bill may not be perfect, it's an attempt, which is more than the other side of the aisle has accomplished.

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This country is circling the drain and we have a congress and president who are steering it towards the drain instead of against it.
This is relative and dependent on your views I guess. I feel differently.

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The only people who support the ACA or Obamacare are the morons who don't know there isn't a difference between the two, we live in the most uneducated uninformed country in the world. Which is exactly what the dem's and Obama want. The stupider the people the easier it is to pull one over on them.
Again, insulting the intelligence of those that think differently than you.

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Go ahead and continue supporting a party and president who believe that they can borrow themselves out of debt. Let's see how well that works out for us.
I will. I guess you can hope for the alternative of cutting everything, having the economy tank, and citizens livelihoods destroyed. I respect your right to feel that way.

Last edited by jbeck; 10-03-2013 at 07:19 PM.
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post #42 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 07:49 PM
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Jbeck,

If you really looked into this healthcare thing you'd see its not so noble. Its not going to help the people who don't have/can't get health insurance already. Its actually going to hurt the middle and lower classes more than anyone else.

Here's one instance. I'm a bartender at a restaurant. Here is how the food service industry is dealing with Obamacare: anyone that works more than 28 hours per week will have to have the option of obtaining health insurance through the restaurant. I was working 35-50 hours per week. Instead of providing insurance to me and everyone else who works more than 28 hours a week, my restaurant (and EVERY OTHER restaurant) is cutting its employees hours to max out at 25 per week. So I now have to get a second job because I can't live on the money I make in 25 hours per week. Make sence?

There are horror stories like mine from every other industry because of Obamacare. You might not see them on CNN but that doesn't mean they aren't true.

The mainstream news is bought and paid for man. Politicians don't care about you or I.

Pointing things out to you because you refuse to pull your head out of the sand and really see what's going on in our country is not insulting your intelligence.

Also, you're right, I do not vote. The main reason being that our elections are rigged. Jeb Bush had ownership of a company located in Oviedo, Florida that testified before Congress that they had all the means to rig an election and could do so without anyone ever being able to tell it was done. So if you think it doesn't happen you are sadly naive. Here is a video of the testimony:
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post #43 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-03-2013, 08:28 PM
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post #44 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-04-2013, 02:18 AM
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post #45 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-04-2013, 12:41 PM
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Jbeck,

If you really looked into this healthcare thing you'd see its not so noble. Its not going to help the people who don't have/can't get health insurance already. Its actually going to hurt the middle and lower classes more than anyone else.

Here's one instance. I'm a bartender at a restaurant. Here is how the food service industry is dealing with Obamacare: anyone that works more than 28 hours per week will have to have the option of obtaining health insurance through the restaurant. I was working 35-50 hours per week. Instead of providing insurance to me and everyone else who works more than 28 hours a week, my restaurant (and EVERY OTHER restaurant) is cutting its employees hours to max out at 25 per week. So I now have to get a second job because I can't live on the money I make in 25 hours per week. Make sence?

There are horror stories like mine from every other industry because of Obamacare. You might not see them on CNN but that doesn't mean they aren't true.

The mainstream news is bought and paid for man. Politicians don't care about you or I.

Pointing things out to you because you refuse to pull your head out of the sand and really see what's going on in our country is not insulting your intelligence.

Also, you're right, I do not vote. The main reason being that our elections are rigged. Jeb Bush had ownership of a company located in Oviedo, Florida that testified before Congress that they had all the means to rig an election and could do so without anyone ever being able to tell it was done. So if you think it doesn't happen you are sadly naive. Here is a video of the testimony:
Sorry that your hours are being cut. That sucks. I agree that the law is not perfect and there are some things that need to be changed. Considering people that average 30 hrs of work per week as full time may be one of those things.

But I can honestly say that if the restaurant is cutting your hours NOW, it's not because of the ACA. The rule requiring employers to offer insurance to employees who average over 30 hours of work per week doesn't go into affect until 2015 and also only applies to businesses with 50 or more employees. So while your restaurant may have more than 50 employees, it's not yet 2015.

Also, for you to say "EVERY OTHER restaurant" is cutting hours like this because of the ACA is just plain false. Like I said, this part of the law doesn't go into affect until 2015. Also, it is estimated that when this rule does go into affect in 2015, the first year will cost employers an additional $4,000 per employee. While it's not a small number, when you think that many employees make 30-40 thousand dollars a year, it's really not that much. Especially when you consider the the insurance costs that employers already have out to cover themselves from lawsuits and the such.

But I can agree that this portion of the law needs some refining, and it very well may. But the ACA isn't the reason your hours are being cut now.

Last edited by jbeck; 10-04-2013 at 01:50 PM.
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post #46 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-04-2013, 10:58 PM
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post #47 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-04-2013, 11:14 PM
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post #48 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-07-2013, 03:19 PM
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Interesting that you're saying government is going to have to pick from the exchanges...

You should tell Jay Carney that, apparently he wasn't aware.

The same goes for the IRS, you know... Those who are going to be enforcing the law...

lol

This goes to show you exactly WHY this law shouldn't continue, apparently you know more about it than the people that are tasked with enforcing it!


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post #49 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-07-2013, 04:49 PM
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Congress WILL have to buy from the exchanges, it's just that they got a sweetheart deal that makes the government pay for 75% of the premiums.


Shut the rest of the government down and keep it shut down!

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post #50 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-07-2013, 05:00 PM
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Congress WILL have to buy from the exchanges, it's just that they got a sweetheart deal that makes the government pay for 75% of the premiums.


Shut the rest of the government down and keep it shut down!
Somewhat true, but there's a difference. Congress buys through FEHBP, but these are supposed to be set up much like the public exchanges. So that they would be in compliance with the law.

However, the difference with congress that is discuss by the house and what they have been trying to get the senate to agree on is that members of Congress can now receive tax-exempt contributions from their employer (see tax payers) to their plans.

So we have to follow one set of rules which congress, it's staff, the president etc... All follow a different set of rules.

It's just another example of the administration not enforcing the law, but rather they do what they want!


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post #51 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-07-2013, 06:30 PM
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Somewhat true, but there's a difference. Congress buys through FEHBP, but these are supposed to be set up much like the public exchanges. So that they would be in compliance with the law.

However, the difference with congress that is discuss by the house and what they have been trying to get the senate to agree on is that members of Congress can now receive tax-exempt contributions from their employer (see tax payers) to their plans.

So we have to follow one set of rules which congress, it's staff, the president etc... All follow a different set of rules.

It's just another example of the administration not enforcing the law, but rather they do what they want!
How is it different than anyone else's employer contributing towards their healthcare benefits? Only difference is that Congress is getting theirs through healthcare exchanges and is allowed to have employer contributions while all others getting theirs out of the exchanges can't have employer contributions. But this is pretty much a non issue in my mind because those that are going to be getting insurance out of the exchanges are people who's employer doesn't offer healthcare, therefore they wouldn't be getting an employee contribution anyways.
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post #52 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-08-2013, 08:46 AM
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How is it different than anyone else's employer contributing towards their healthcare benefits? Only difference is that Congress is getting theirs through healthcare exchanges and is allowed to have employer contributions while all others getting theirs out of the exchanges can't have employer contributions. But this is pretty much a non issue in my mind because those that are going to be getting insurance out of the exchanges are people who's employer doesn't offer healthcare, therefore they wouldn't be getting an employee contribution anyways.
It's different because that's not how the law was written, however, since when would the president actually enforce the law that was written.

Personally, I feel that should be the compromise that the democrats should have taken from the republicans. The CR that passed, with bipartisan support, that enforced the law to the letter, with no exceptions.

That could have been a very good basis for a negotiation. But no... Democrats want us to stay shut down...

Oh well...


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post #53 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-08-2013, 11:14 AM
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It's different because that's not how the law was written, however, since when would the president actually enforce the law that was written.

Personally, I feel that should be the compromise that the democrats should have taken from the republicans. The CR that passed, with bipartisan support, that enforced the law to the letter, with no exceptions.

That could have been a very good basis for a negotiation. But no... Democrats want us to stay shut down...

Oh well...
Say the Democrats would do that. What exactly is it that the Republicans are compromising on? Re-opening the government? Seems to me they're forcing this shutdown to get what they want without giving anything in return other than to re-open the govt, which to me is not compromising on the Repubs part, unless of course they do, in fact, want the shutdown.

Prez and Dems have repeatedly called to just bring the clean bill to a vote. That's all. Bohner won't even let it come to a vote because he knows it would probably pass and how bad would he and the repubs look if a clean bill passed that could have obviously been passed before and prevented the entire shutdown in the first place.
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post #54 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-08-2013, 11:41 AM
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Say the Democrats would do that. What exactly is it that the Republicans are compromising on?
You'll never know unless you'll sit down and talk!!!!

Republicans have passed several versions of THEIR beliefs. And the senate hasn't been willing to discuss ANYTHING.

Neither side should get 100% of what they want. Why? Because each controls half of congress. That means republicans don't get 100% because they don't control the senate, and democrats don't get 100% because they don't control the house.

So you do like EVERY congress has done in history, you come to the table and you TALK!

I know, I know... CRAZY thought, right?

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Seems to me they're forcing this shutdown to get what they want without giving anything in return other than to re-open the govt, which to me is not compromising on the Repubs part, unless of course they do, in fact, want the shutdown.
Well lets think about that... Republicans no doubt want to repeal the law. But they couldn't, so they said, fine... Lets defund it. Couldn't, so they said fine, delay it.

So already they have moved a few times, how much has the senate moved???

The house has passed almost a dozen bills to help those portions of government that hurt the most. Like NIH, Veterans Affairs, etc...

How many of them has the senate voted on? ZERO! So who is it that is keeping government shut down?

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Prez and Dems have repeatedly called to just bring the clean bill to a vote. That's all.
Oh, that's all? Just give them everything they want while you get NOTHING you want, that's all?

Right of course... LOL C'mon man, did you really just say that? Not with a straight face I hope...

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Bohner won't even let it come to a vote because he knows it would probably pass and how bad would he and the repubs look if a clean bill passed that could have obviously been passed before and prevented the entire shutdown in the first place.
And neither would the senate! How many bills has the house passed that the senate won't allow a vote on?

Pot calling kettle black?

Hell the senate wouldn't even allow amendments on the last CR they passed! Why not? Scared something might pass that they don't want to pass?

Hmmm...

Also note, the NIH bill that passed the house passed 407-0. Has the senate voted on it yet??


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post #55 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-08-2013, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Niner1000RR View Post
Oh, that's all? Just give them everything they want while you get NOTHING you want, that's all?

Right of course... LOL C'mon man, did you really just say that? Not with a straight face I hope...
I find it funny that you refer to ending the shutdown by passing a clean bill as something "they" want, referring to the dems, and saying that the repubs get "nothing" then.

Shouldn't BOTH parties want the govt shutdown to end as quickly as possible? I would think so.

The repubs have unsuccessfully tried to do away with the ACA many times already. So what they're doing is holding this govt shutdown over the Dems heads and trying to make it look like by them reopening the govt, their actually giving something in a compromise so they can get what they want concerning the ACA, but they aren't giving up anything.

Apparently what the Repubs are doing is working with some of the public, because they have you convinced that they would be compromising by passing a bill ending the shutdown.
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post #56 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-08-2013, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Niner1000RR View Post
And neither would the senate! How many bills has the house passed that the senate won't allow a vote on?

Pot calling kettle black?

Hell the senate wouldn't even allow amendments on the last CR they passed! Why not? Scared something might pass that they don't want to pass?
ANY bill that defunds/delays the ACA will never pass the Senate.

The clean bill that Bohner won't allow a vote on actually has a good chance to pass the House. It's already passed in the Senate.
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post #57 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-08-2013, 01:40 PM
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"I will not negotiate"
"They won't compromise"
Funny thing is, same person is saying both.

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post #58 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-08-2013, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by jbeck View Post
I find it funny that you refer to ending the shutdown by passing a clean bill as something "they" want, referring to the dems, and saying that the repubs get "nothing" then.
Because you want to link the 2 in order to achieve a talking point.

Want the shut down to end? Be willing to compromise. NO ONE gets everything they want. PERIOD.

I seem to remember the president saying those EXACT words... Don't you? Well if he and you truly believe that, well then you don't get 100% of what you want either. So grow up and come to the table.

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Shouldn't BOTH parties want the govt shutdown to end as quickly as possible? I would think so.
Yea, I would agree with that, EXCEPT, it's the democrats aren't willing to compromise to end the shut down. They would rather stand up and say NO.

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Originally Posted by jbeck View Post
The repubs have unsuccessfully tried to do away with the ACA many times already. So what they're doing is holding this govt shutdown over the Dems heads and trying to make it look like by them reopening the govt, their actually giving something in a compromise so they can get what they want concerning the ACA, but they aren't giving up anything.
Well they can't give up anything unless the senate is willing to negotiate something. The house can't do the negotiations FOR the senate. Come on dude, I KNOW you're smarter than this.

Who is stopping the senate from 1.) Voting on a CR that would open the govn. TODAY? There are several sitting on their desk. OR 2.) Come to the table to discuss what could be agreed on so both houses could sign a law they are willing to sign to open govn?

Who is stopping the democrats???

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Originally Posted by jbeck View Post
Apparently what the Repubs are doing is working with some of the public, because they have you convinced that they would be compromising by passing a bill ending the shutdown.
Right, whatever you think dude! Just keep the fingers in your ears and the blindfold on! Those democrats are just pure and god like! They would NEVER do anything for a political agenda, that's ONLY the republicans that would EVER do such a thing!

LMAO! That's just funny!!!

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ANY bill that defunds/delays the ACA will never pass the Senate.
Well then maybe they should come to the table and agree to give up something else? Hmmm, what an amazing thought! WOW! I must be some kind of GENIUS!

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Originally Posted by jbeck View Post
The clean bill that Bohner won't allow a vote on actually has a good chance to pass the House. It's already passed in the Senate.
Right, because the senate says it's "our way or the highway" right? But the president comes out and says that it's the republicans that are always doing this... Hmmm.... Hypocrisy at its finest???

I think so...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jskateborders View Post
"I will not negotiate"
"They won't compromise"
Funny thing is, same person is saying both.
LOL! Like I said, hypocrisy at it's finest!

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post #59 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-08-2013, 03:48 PM
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I just watched Obamas speech, wow, how did he get re-elected??? I find it scary that the country is ready to collapse and the President just points fingers and sluffs off concerns of long term consequences, what happened to real leadership that our Founding Fathers lived by
America is suppost to be a strong and stable, Moral example to the world, it is now the exact opposite, its a joke
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post #60 of 232 (permalink) Old 10-08-2013, 04:39 PM
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I just watched Obamas speech, wow, how did he get re-elected???



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I was reading the "Silly humans" thread by TheX earlier and looked up Robert A Heinlein quotes. This may answer your question.

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Originally Posted by Robert A. Heinlein
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.

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