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post #1 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-04-2013, 08:09 AM Thread Starter
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You're both wrong

Let me start by saying that my dislike and distrust of the democratic party does NOT mean that I'm a conservative republican. I'm for same sex marriage, and believe in a woman's right to choose. I do NOT believe in god and feel that democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Obviously it goes MUCH deeper, but this is a start.

Liberty is freedom.

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post #2 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-04-2013, 09:05 AM
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you are for the individual instead of for the group. you don't think democracy works

thats ok.

but is there anything better than democracy?



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post #3 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-04-2013, 01:12 PM
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post #4 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-05-2013, 02:27 AM
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post #5 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-05-2013, 02:46 AM
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you are for the individual instead of for the group. you don't think democracy works

thats ok.

but is there anything better than democracy?
Everyone abuses their power. I have to guess you are referrring America has democracy. While talking about how America is so "democratic" what did you vote on? You voted for representative who gets lobbied by people with power/money. These representatives are not held accountable, other than next election if that even matters, for not doing what they promised prior to elections.
Did you get to vote on America's war decisions, military budget, SS/medicare/medicaid, NSA, senators pay check, health care? These are very few of very important things that are going to effect our lives yet we don't get to vote on these things. We get to vote on representative who lie to us to get elected.
Also dumb people (maybe I'm one of them too, you be the judge) get a say in democracy too. Dumb people are subject to lies, influence, fear mongering. Just by watching TV or reading 2 paragraph article they thing I know everything there is to know about an X subject.
In extreme cases with democracy 51% could be making decision for %49.

Lets not look at any country and cherry pick examples to push our view point. It is misleading to say America is the worst or the greatest country. Some ways I think it is better on other ways it worst than many.
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post #6 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-05-2013, 03:24 AM
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Sounds like your Republican with some Democratic views.

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post #7 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-05-2013, 05:40 AM
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You voted for representative who gets lobbied by people with power/money. These representatives are not held accountable, other than next election if that even matters, for not doing what they promised prior to elections.
Did you get to vote on America's war decisions, military budget, SS/medicare/medicaid, NSA, senators pay check, health care? These are very few of very important things that are going to effect our lives yet we don't get to vote on these things. We get to vote on representative who lie to us to get elected.
Also dumb people (maybe I'm one of them too, you be the judge) get a say in democracy too. Dumb people are subject to lies, influence, fear mongering. Just by watching TV or reading 2 paragraph article they thing I know everything there is to know about an X subject.
Pretty much dude pretty much.

I don't think the people were ever given a vote in the most important stuff that makes the country run.
We're supposed to sit here and trust that the officials that we elect (lol-Ever hear of electoral votes) are smart enough to work together and keep this country running like a greased cog.
These days it's blind faith with plenty of bills being passed behind the scenes by lobbyists, special interest groups and the companies they represent.
Plenty of favors and money being spread around to everyone except the people that our politicians are supposed to represent, that's us.
The rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and the super rich get HOLY F**K rich.

Some other countries hold their politicians accountable when they get out of line in the form of civil unrest. They take to the streets in huge masses and cause a big o'l stink. Sometimes they pay the price with their lives.
In this country we sit here and say gosh darn it here we go again just like all the previous candidates this fool is lying to us, giving away our money, raising taxes, and taking away more of our rights.
A few may politely protest with signs and chants but most do nothing but carry on thinking "Well that'll change when we vote him out"...
Oh yea that's great, another FEW YEARS of some idiot or several idiots F**KING S**T up along the way.

Once the new politicians take office the story always seems to be the same. Whoops sorry forks we can't change that now, stay the course, or they deny there's even a problem.
When they don't do well they blame it on the previous position holder saying that it's not their fault. They were just the patsy because the problem started before them.
To top it off we pay these jokers a great deal of money for the rest of their lives if they did well or not. Bush Jr. sure as hell doesn't deserve a frigg'n paycheck. That sh*t needs to change and it needs to change now!

The political system that runs this country may have worked way back when but the unfixed, compounded problems year after year are adding up and it's beginning to fail.
This thing the forefathers called a democracy is slowly mutating into something else.




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post #8 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-05-2013, 10:45 AM Thread Starter
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Hehehehe



Error 1011
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post #9 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-05-2013, 10:51 AM Thread Starter
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Sounds like your Republican with some Democratic views.
That's a fair assessment. Republicans call me a godless liberal. Dems can't understand why I don't support socialist health care with capitalist doctors, hospitals and pharmaceutical companies. Don't get me started on insurance companies.

Raising the debt ceiling is insane, and BOTH parties are to blame. When (not if) something happens, and we default on that debt we are all screwed. The British pound sterling was once the international currency of choice, that changed ~40 years ago. The only reason we're ok now is because people we buy our stuff from like dollars. That will change, and we as a country need to be prepared.

Obama's "head in the sand" approach is making it far worse, far more quickly than ever before.
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post #10 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-05-2013, 11:24 AM
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but is there anything better than democracy?
Yeah, a constitutional republic. You know, what we were intended to be.
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post #11 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-05-2013, 11:27 AM
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A Republic, by definition, has two principle elements. First, it is controlled by Law; therefore, it does not control Law. Second, it recognizes the private independent sovereign nature of each person (man or woman) of competent age and capacity; therefore, a Republic must be representative in its nature.

A Republic recognizes Law is unchangeable, or at least that it can only be changed by a higher source than government. In a Republic the concept of “collective sovereignty” cannot exist, except with recognition that the State or nation, as a body of sovereigns, can speak through one elected voice; though that one voice can never lawfully interfere with the private rights of the individual sovereigns.

“A Constitutional Republic” is a government created and controlled, at least, by the Law of a Constitution. The Constitution of the United States of America was, in Law, a foundation based on the Bible, the Magna Carta and the Declaration of Independence. Those documents recognize man’s sovereignty, the divine nature of man’s creation and man’s divine right to Life, Liberty, the means of acquiring and possessing Property, and the pursuit of happiness.
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post #12 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-05-2013, 11:32 AM Thread Starter
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A Republic, by definition, has two principle elements. First, it is controlled by Law; therefore, it does not control Law. Second, it recognizes the private independent sovereign nature of each person (man or woman) of competent age and capacity; therefore, a Republic must be representative in its nature.

A Republic recognizes Law is unchangeable, or at least that it can only be changed by a higher source than government. In a Republic the concept of “collective sovereignty” cannot exist, except with recognition that the State or nation, as a body of sovereigns, can speak through one elected voice; though that one voice can never lawfully interfere with the private rights of the individual sovereigns.

“A Constitutional Republic” is a government created and controlled, at least, by the Law of a Constitution. The Constitution of the United States of America was, in Law, a foundation based on the Bible, the Magna Carta and the Declaration of Independence. Those documents recognize man’s sovereignty, the divine nature of man’s creation and man’s divine right to Life, Liberty, the means of acquiring and possessing Property, and the pursuit of happiness.
Best post on dotnet award winner right here.
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post #13 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-05-2013, 12:16 PM
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Best post on dotnet award winner right here.
Thanks, but I got that definition from a constitutional law website. Most people have no clue what this country was founded on and how far off course we have drifted.
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post #14 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-05-2013, 01:17 PM Thread Starter
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Most people have no clue what this country was founded on and how far off course we have drifted.
You mean it isn't Hope and Change, and redistribution of wealth?
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post #15 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-05-2013, 02:31 PM
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Sounds like your Republican with some Democratic views.
You mean Libertarian?




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post #16 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-05-2013, 03:03 PM Thread Starter
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You mean Libertarian?


Yep...........

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Liberty is freedom.

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post #17 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-05-2013, 05:25 PM
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That's a fair assessment. Republicans call me a godless liberal. Dems can't understand why I don't support socialist health care with capitalist doctors, hospitals and pharmaceutical companies. Don't get me started on insurance companies.

Raising the debt ceiling is insane, and BOTH parties are to blame. When (not if) something happens, and we default on that debt we are all screwed. The British pound sterling was once the international currency of choice, that changed ~40 years ago. The only reason we're ok now is because people we buy our stuff from like dollars. That will change, and we as a country need to be prepared.

Obama's "head in the sand" approach is making it far worse, far more quickly than ever before.
Not raising the debt ceiling is how we default. The debt ceiling limits if we can pay for debt we've already incurred.

If you mean that we don't have stronger fiscal responsibility as a nation to not (re)approach the debt ceiling that makes sense. To not raise the debt ceiling now is insane.
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post #18 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-05-2013, 05:31 PM Thread Starter
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Not raising the debt ceiling is how we default. The debt ceiling limits if we can pay for debt we've already incurred.

If you mean that we don't have stronger fiscal responsibility as a nation to not (re)approach the debt ceiling that makes sense. To not raise the debt ceiling now is insane.
Of course we have to raise it. But we also need to start fixing this situation, and Obama is making it worse at record rates. Thinking it can keep going up like this is moronic.
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post #19 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-05-2013, 06:14 PM
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Not raising the debt ceiling is how we default. The debt ceiling limits if we can pay for debt we've already incurred.

If you mean that we don't have stronger fiscal responsibility as a nation to not (re)approach the debt ceiling that makes sense. To not raise the debt ceiling now is insane.
No one's saying to not raise it but the agreement to raise it is the time to agree to do something about it. If the the debt ceiling is always an automatic pass then is there really any debt ceiling at all? Shouldn't we come to a plan on how we're going to pay for yet another loan before we take on even more debt? Money and government is like alcohol to a drunk. They say yeah, I'll start to quit or cut down tomorrow. Tomorrow never comes. As the AA people say, the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem.
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post #20 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-05-2013, 08:28 PM
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Thanks, but I got that definition from a constitutional law website. Most people have no clue what this country was founded on and how far off course we have drifted.
I was hoping like hell you copied and pasted that. Could not be more true though.

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post #21 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-08-2013, 07:28 PM
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Of course we have to raise it. But we also need to start fixing this situation, and Obama is making it worse at record rates. Thinking it can keep going up like this is moronic.
We don't have to raise the debt ceiling. I was listening to Mark Levin tonight and he pointed out how the treasury brings in plenty enough money to fund all of the essentials, the debt service costs, and then have plenty left over for at least 75% of the current funding. The treasury is bringing in enough to easily cover 2001 spending levels.

Also, Default Will not happen if Obama obeys the constitution that states the debts get paid first. But since when has he cared about the constitution. I bet he has it printed on his presidential toilet paper.

"Reaching the debt ceiling does not mean that the government will default on the outstanding government debt. In fact, the U.S. Constitution forbids defaulting on the debt (14th Amendment, Section 4), so the government is not allowed to default even if it wanted to.

In reality, if the debt ceiling is not raised in the next two weeks, the government will actually have to prioritize its expenses and keep its monthly, weekly, and daily spending under the revenue the government collects. In simple terms, the government would have to spend an amount less than or equal to what it earns. Just like ordinary Americans have to do in their everyday lives."


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post #22 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-09-2013, 02:40 AM
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Yeah, a constitutional republic. You know, what we were intended to be.
your elected leaders failing to adhere to your constitution is not a failure of democracy, its a failure of the citizens to act as a counter balance. democracy fails if the citizens no longer participate actively in making themselves heard (other than through the ballot).

The ballot determines the ideology, not the execution. Execution is enforced through public participation in various forms, and if the elected leader fails to listen, or lies, or goes back on his word, you can riot and demand his resignation, or use the ballot to remove him from office.



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post #23 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-09-2013, 09:45 AM
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I see a MAJOR flaw so far in this thread and that's the thought that we are a DEMOCRACY, which we are not!

A democracy would allow for the 2 wolves to vote on what's for lunch, and in a democracy the majority rules. In a REPUBLIC, which we are, the minority does get a say. They do get a vote.

This isn't about ANY party, one way or another. It's about what is right and what is wrong.


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post #24 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-09-2013, 10:37 AM
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It's about what is right and what is wrong.
...according to THE LAW. But, it seems many people are perfectly content to not follow the most important laws of all, the Supreme Law of the Land, our Constitution.


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post #25 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-09-2013, 10:48 AM
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...according to THE LAW. But, it seems many people are perfectly content to not follow the most important laws of all, the Supreme Law of the Land, our Constitution.
Absolutely sir!


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post #26 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-09-2013, 12:54 PM
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I love this comparison:

If you come home one day to find the sewers backed up and filled your house up to the ceiling with sewage. Do you simply raise the height of the ceiling or remove the sh!t?

Certainly you can do both, but just raising the ceiling still leaves you with a house full of sh!t.

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post #27 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-09-2013, 01:20 PM
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Good one. Now go post the same thing in the Government Shut Down thread.


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post #28 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-09-2013, 04:14 PM
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your elected leaders failing to adhere to your constitution is not a failure of democracy, its a failure of the citizens to act as a counter balance. democracy fails if the citizens no longer participate actively in making themselves heard (other than through the ballot).

The ballot determines the ideology, not the execution. Execution is enforced through public participation in various forms, and if the elected leader fails to listen, or lies, or goes back on his word, you can riot and demand his resignation, or use the ballot to remove him from office.
We are familiar with the concept of using force to overthrow a government that doesn't represent us.
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post #29 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-09-2013, 09:56 PM
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if the elected leader fails to listen, or lies, or goes back on his word, you can riot and demand his resignation, or use the ballot to remove him from office.
With the "imperial" domestic military force that has been illegally assembled, large scale riots would not end well for the citizens of this country. Also, even if a large portion of our nation weren't dumbed down sheople, I believe that our government has tragically surpassed the point of citizen control.
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post #30 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-10-2013, 01:59 AM
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you are a republic, i get that (so are we). there is still a constitution at the center of it, right?

but ill butt out of the conversation. i sense im stepping on toes.....



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