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post #31 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-19-2014, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by adamcbr4lyfe View Post
Well how does every modern war the US has been in played out. The take out air defence and the air force first. Try looking at the size of the air force and the level of sophisticated equipment compared to what nk is using. Ask yourself how long before the US completely destroyed nk air force and controls the sky? Than a drone could operate freely. You control the sky you win the war. Not saying occupying is easy, that's another story.

Remember when Iraq had the third or fourth most powerful military. Didn't take long to completely destroy any government they had in place two times.



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I guess I wasn't very clear in my original post.

Here's the deal with NK. The second a war kicks off, Seoul will be destroyed. The worlds 3rd largest metropolitan is located within long range artillery of NK. Of which we have no defenses for. That means as soon as we start blowing up SA sites and flying drones over NK, millions of innocent civilians will die. And I won't even mention the economical impact that will have on the region and the world.

Let me ask you, would you make that call knowing how many would die, in minutes.

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post #32 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-19-2014, 04:18 PM
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We should mind our own business, we look like FOOLS!

Sanctions against 11 people... Not of which are the ones pulling the strings. We are a JOKE!

I agree. I am all for this whole UN thing. If the UN says we are going to war, well we can go to war. Otherwise we sit here and mind our own business.

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post #33 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-19-2014, 04:28 PM
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regarding the vote to join Russia, i think its a shortsighted decision by a populace yearning for the good old days of perceived Russian unity and dominance, who will regret giving up their independence in the long run.

Thats totally true on one side but it might improve the living conditions in the future, we wouldn't know. I'm currently living in a neighboring country and even here people are talking about the good old days. They explained to me that communism was bad and there were many disadvantages but on the other side like everyone owned a car and had a house and food etc. while now some people are like struggling to come by.

Back in communist days everyone was like yeaaah lets introduce capitalism and democracy and import all these western stuff. And in one instance 80% of the population became super poor. Because the communist politicians spread all the state wealth across family and friends.

Also since everything is like imported here local production is going bankrupt which leads to joblessness.

But yeah, I don't think there will be war or anything.


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post #34 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-19-2014, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Ldn View Post
I guess I wasn't very clear in my original post.

Here's the deal with NK. The second a war kicks off, Seoul will be destroyed. The worlds 3rd largest metropolitan is located within long range artillery of NK. Of which we have no defenses for. That means as soon as we start blowing up SA sites and flying drones over NK, millions of innocent civilians will die. And I won't even mention the economical impact that will have on the region and the world.

Let me ask you, would you make that call knowing how many would die, in minutes.
NOOOOOOOO!!! :(

Only thing that matters to me is Korea, must save the hot Asians from da Kim Jong Un!!! And must keep beautiful KPOP girls from South Korea safe!!

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post #35 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-19-2014, 04:35 PM Thread Starter
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NOOOOOOOO!!! :(

Only thing that matters to me is Korea, must save the hot Asians from da Kim Jong Un!!! And must keep beautiful KPOP girls from South Korea safe!!

*contains profanity!*

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post #36 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-19-2014, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Ldn View Post
I guess I wasn't very clear in my original post.

Here's the deal with NK. The second a war kicks off, Seoul will be destroyed. The worlds 3rd largest metropolitan is located within long range artillery of NK. Of which we have no defenses for. That means as soon as we start blowing up SA sites and flying drones over NK, millions of innocent civilians will die. And I won't even mention the economical impact that will have on the region and the world.

Let me ask you, would you make that call knowing how many would die, in minutes.
I guess I wasn't clear. I didn't say it would be good for the South Korean people, just that nk could be taken out by the United States. I thought that's what you and I were talking about! Military power. Even with all the air defence and elite special forces they have nk wouldn't come out on the better end.


I'm not saying this is the path that should be taken. Of course war should be the last option.



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post #37 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-19-2014, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Ldn View Post
You got that a bit off. Our defense budget is larger than the next 13 countries combined. China and Russia have the largest militaries. We are by no means the biggest, nor are we the most effective.

North Korea has the largest and most effective Special Forces followed by Russia and then China.
Oh yea? where exactly do you get that information?

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Except a drone wouldn't be able to come within 50 miles of NK. They have SA2 and SA5 sites all over the place that are extremely effective at taking out low to high altitude aircraft. They also have long range artillery that can reach well over the border into S. Korea capable of doing more damage than you can possibly imagine in less time than you could imagine.

So yeah, the numbers don't really matter. Weaponry does. But who shoots the weapons? And unfortunately, our weaponry in that region is very insignificant compared to the number of Spetnaz that are prepared to enter Ukraine on a moments notice.

Also, think political and economical ramifications. What would happen if we put forces in Ukraine without UN approval. It would be a US-Russia war. We are as likely to be sanctioned for going against UN Policies as Russia is for doing the same thing to Ukraine that we would be doing.

Unfortunately, contrary to popular belief, the Russian and Chinese militaries are a lot more capable than most people are led to believe. I've fought in 3 wars across this planet, each with its own unique circumstances and I can honestly tell you, a war with China, Russia or DPRK would be absolutely devastating to the US. It would be more bloody than the American people are prepared to handle. And our civilians would lose the will to fight rather fast.
I was unaware DATA marines do much war fighting
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post #38 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 12:08 AM
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The discussions in this thread are an absolutely perfect demonstration of american arrogance and ignorance. Its a scary thought to know that one of the most powerful countries on the planet is VERY well stocked with a bunch of war mongering bullies.

For shame
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post #39 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 12:13 AM
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The discussions in this thread are an absolutely perfect demonstration of american arrogance and ignorance. Its a scary thought to know that one of the most powerful countries on the planet is VERY well stocked with a bunch of war mongering bullies.

For shame
feel free to gtfo of America if you think it's full of "war mongering bullies"
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post #40 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 12:17 AM
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Nice assumption there pal.
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post #41 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 12:42 AM
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your words "pal"
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post #42 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 12:48 AM
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What makes you think Im american? Thats the assumption I was referring to
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post #43 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 01:44 AM
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Oh yea? where exactly do you get that information?



I was unaware DATA marines do much war fighting

There's these cool little books that the CIA puts out called fact books. They have all sorts of great info on foreign military and are updated yearly. I also published a monthly intel report from open sources when I was in Korea. My main focus was NK, Russia and China as they all played a very large role in the region.

Also, in my 10 years I've done very little data in country. And a whole lot of other ****. Not to mention the fact that I'm not even doing data now. MSG me if your curious where I've been and what I've done. I'd be more than happy to meet up too.

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post #44 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 03:20 AM
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You got that a bit off. Our defense budget is larger than the next 13 countries combined. China and Russia have the largest militaries. We are by no means the biggest, nor are we the most effective..
this.

keeping in mind where Iran/Iraq/Afghanistan/north korea and finally russia are georgraphically situated, any conventional warfare will be FAR from US soil thus very expensive, slow and thinly spread.

i remember while you guys were involved in Afghanistan and iraq, and then NK became arrogant, there were lots of talk on cnn/bbc etc. regarding your ability to fight a second front against NK and it was said so long as china don't get involved you should be able to do so for a short period of time.

my point is Russia is a different story. they can hurt you on 2 fronts (west into europe and east into alaska) in a conventional war without venturing too far from home.



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post #45 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 07:55 AM
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The discussions in this thread are an absolutely perfect demonstration of american arrogance and ignorance. Its a scary thought to know that one of the most powerful countries on the planet is VERY well stocked with a bunch of war mongering bullies.

For shame
I'm Canadian. And I still think you guys are giving Russia and China too much credit. If numbers of troops determined the best army than the US wouldn't be wasting all that money on toys.

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post #46 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 11:53 AM
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I'm Canadian. And I still think you guys are giving Russia and China too much credit. If numbers of troops determined the best army than the US wouldn't be wasting all that money on toys.

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The number of troops doesn't determine the best army. But when you look at the Russian military, their special purpose forces (SPETSNAZ) is larger than our Marine Corps. I'm not saying they're better than the US, and I'm not saying we would win or lose, what I am saying is that it would be very expensive in blood and money and it would not be as easy as to he American people are accustomed. This won't be Iraq or Afghanistan.

Are the American people prepared to withstand years of devastating losses of life, budget cuts and a decrease in quality of life as we invest everything we have as a nation into fighting awar with the largest military in the world that is allied with the second largest in the world?

I can tell you right now, our biggest fears in Korea are if Russia and China get involved. Because as prepared and well trained as we may be, how long will the American civilians support a war with massive losses? Do we have the resolve to stick it through and win a war I attrition? Judging by how quickly people started bitching about Afghanistan and Iraq, if say no. .

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post #47 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 12:49 PM
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Ldn I can agree with you on a lot of that especially the last paragraph. Don't forget it won't just be the US if this happens.

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post #48 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 01:27 PM Thread Starter
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First off I appreciate everything our troops do for us, but I don't think it's fair to lump Iraq and Afghanistan in together...some citizens are only in disagreement with how it's been carried out strategically.

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post #49 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 02:06 PM
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First off I appreciate everything our troops do for us, but I don't think it's fair to lump Iraq and Afghanistan in together...some citizens are only in disagreement with how it's been carried out strategically.

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And what does your average citizen know about military strategy? More than a graduate from an international war college? More than a General with 30+ years experience in war fighting? More than 5 Generals with that experience?

War is unpopular. What's even more unpopular is when people are dying in War. Can you imagine how quickly the American people will oppose this war if we were to have even just half the casualty rate we had in WWII? How about the casualty rate of Vietnam? Or Korea?

Casualties from combat alone for the US (does not include wounded, missing or those that died from complications or disease):
WWII - 291,557
Korea - 33,686
Vietnam - 47,424
Afghanistan - 1,742
Iraq - 3,527

Total dead and wounded:
WWII - 1,076,245
Korea - 128,650
Vietnam - 211,454
Afghanistan - 20,904
Iraq - 36,710

Thats more than 10 times the number of dead from Iraq and Afghanistan to Korea and Vietnam...

America is not prepared for a war of this scale. Since Vietnam, America has not encountered an organized military in combat. From Lebanon, the bay of pigs, through multiple encounters in Bosnia and Africa, The Persian gulf, Libya and Panama, Columbia... 18 encounters in total from 1958 to 2001 we have only lost 615 Americans in combat. And now that we've spent nearly 13 years fighting guerrillas in the desert, we have developed a whole new generation of fighters. Fighters that don't know what it's like to go against an organized military, using the same conventional war fighting tactics we use. Except now we will be facing a military that has been training for such combat since the Cold War started in 1985.

It is ignorant to think that they are not prepared. Pride will be the end of us if we underestimate the opposition. Better to overestimate them and over prepare than to show up and not be ready to play, when we all know they're bringing their A-game.

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post #50 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 02:24 PM Thread Starter
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What the average citizen knows is how it "feels" and if it feels like a lost cause it really doesn't matter what the k/d ratio is. I have no formal training in this area nor would I devalue the significance that the formal training has, but don't call me "average"

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post #51 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 02:46 PM
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What the average citizen knows is how it "feels" and if it feels like a lost cause it really doesn't matter what the k/d ratio is. I have no formal training in this area nor would I devalue the significance that the formal training has, but don't call me "average"

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My apologies if you took average as an insult. Your post stated "some citizens" you never said that it was you that we were talking about.

So if you really felt that way, all you had to do was say that.

And in this sense, you are average. The majority of the American population hasn't served or been educated on these types of things like you've said. Average is a mathematical term, aka mean, median or mode. Average is of the majority.

So in all reality what you just said was that you have developed an un-educated opinion on the subject matter, and it should be valued because it's how you feel... That's some BS logic there. If we all did things based on how we feel... Well I would never go to the dentist because it doesn't feel right to have holes drilled in my teeth, even though there's someone telling me it's for the better, someone educated in the subject.

Now tell me, if you haven't been there, or done anything of the sort. If you have no education on the subject or personal experience,where does this feeling of a "lost cause" come from? People only know what we can interpret from our senses, or are told. And if you haven't been there to see first hand what's going on, I'm guessing you are going off of what you are told? First guess, media?

I've been there, I've seen the impact we are making and have made. I've seen women and children meet us with open hands and beg us to stay to keep them safe. Tell me that's not worth it? Why is their safety worth less than yours?

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post #52 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 02:49 PM
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What the average citizen knows is how it "feels" and if it feels like a lost cause it really doesn't matter what the k/d ratio is. I have no formal training in this area nor would I devalue the significance that the formal training has, but don't call me "average"

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And bro... Seriously? k/d ratio? This isn't some video game. This is real American lives, and if we go with Russia, lives of men and women from most of the civilized world...

Deaths DO matter! It's all that matter! I don't care why we are wherever we go, all I care about is doing my job the best I can, and bringing the guy to my left and right home with me... ALIVE!

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post #53 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 04:26 PM Thread Starter
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First off, I'm on a cell phone so forgive the abbreviations although if you did understand k/d to mean mortality then I'll move on my second point because no sh1t this isn't a game. When I say how it feels I'm really talking about public opinion, and lost cause refers to public perception, I never said anywhere it was how I felt because I know why forces went into Afghanistan although I admit I don't see the same evidence for Iraq so that should clear somethings up. Now should I touch on how you appear to place yourself on a pedestal for having gone to a war college? Bottomline is your making too many assumptions about the rest of my background to discount my opinion in addition to the misinterpretation of my original statement which makes any further discussion meaningless for the time being.

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post #54 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 05:32 PM
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War with Russia?

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Originally Posted by cbrkat28 View Post
First off, I'm on a cell phone so forgive the abbreviations although if you did understand k/d to mean mortality then I'll move on my second point because no sh1t this isn't a game. When I say how it feels I'm really talking about public opinion, and lost cause refers to public perception, I never said anywhere it was how I felt because I know why forces went into Afghanistan although I admit I don't see the same evidence for Iraq so that should clear somethings up. Now should I touch on how you appear to place yourself on a pedestal for having gone to a war college? Bottomline is your making too many assumptions about the rest of my background to discount my opinion in addition to the misinterpretation of my original statement which makes any further discussion meaningless for the time being.

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I just wanted to clarify one thing. I wasn't referring to myself as having gone to a war college. I was talking about those individuals that educate themselves specifically to make decisions on international conflicts. Those individuals that have specifically studied tactics and strategy.

I apologize for misinterpreting your statement for meaning that it was how you felt. Regardless if it's you or the general public though, my point is still valid, no?

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post #55 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 05:57 PM Thread Starter
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I just wanted to clarify one thing. I wasn't referring to myself as having gone to a war college. I was talking about those individuals that educate themselves specifically to make decisions on international conflicts. Those individuals that have specifically studied tactics and strategy.

I apologize for misinterpreting your statement for meaning that it was how you felt. Regardless if it's you or the general public though, my point is still valid, no?
The point about how in general the American population couldn't stomach a war with Russia or China or NK longer than they probably could? yea that's completely valid, in fact it was the basis for my statement about the influence of public perception (how they feel a war is going) regardless of mortality statistics, I'm actually agreeing with you just going a bit further as to the possibility of why and when public support dwindles the way it does...good we cleared this up i think.

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post #56 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 06:13 PM
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your words "pal"
Truth

This whole thing is a joke. Failbama is trying to look tough, and he just looks like an idiot.
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post #57 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-21-2014, 02:17 AM
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My personal opinion, I think it's just going to hurt us by trying to act all tough and "pressure" Putin into withdrawing. Nor do I see any reason for us to go to war even if we were accepted to do so, but you know the U.S. since the start of America, we've been at war for how many years, 200+? After hearing/seeing some of the things that Putin has done just to his citizens for the Sochi Olympics along with the poor economy over in Russia, I think all of the people in Ukraine will end up finding out the hard way...granted Ukraine wasn't doing so hot for themselves either but still.

As for the war over in Afghanistan/Iraq, I don't believe anyone honestly wants to be over there anymore because we're basically trying to rebuild their government and economy while the vast majority of the "soldiers" and citizens expect the U.S. to just keep at it. I do remember watching a documentary and the "military" over there is absolute ****, unorganized, and careless. There were a number of commanding officers of the ANA who'd have a young boy as a servant and also had him serve him sexually also. They're basically at a point where they see the jihad so large that they can't even take them on, they lack a lot in terms of training, supplies, and numbers.
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post #58 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-21-2014, 09:17 AM Thread Starter
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Ya there was a good special about all the money the US has dumped into Afghanistan on vice...it's a show on hbo

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post #59 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-21-2014, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbrkat28 View Post
Ya there was a good special about all the money the US has dumped into Afghanistan on vice...it's a show on hbo

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That's the one, there was also one on the military channel, believe it was called alpha company.
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post #60 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-21-2014, 01:11 PM
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Did you guys hear, we are going to stop the exportation of pop tarts to Russia!

That's going to wake them up!!


"at 8k i often get the tire to slip a bit(kinda like stoner in motogp) when i start to get on the throttle"
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