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post #1 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-11-2005, 08:34 PM Thread Starter
 
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Drifting Vermeleun Style

If you guys happen to watch WSBK this weekend, I was just scratching my head how Chris Vermeulen drifts the bike coming from the outside towards apex but the front wheel point away from the apex, doing the opposite of backing it in. How the hell is he doing it??? It not probably the fastest way around a corner but it sure is quite a spectacle. I'm a huge fan from the WSS days and can't wait how he'll fare this weekend in Philip Island.
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post #2 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-11-2005, 08:49 PM
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it cant be the fastest way. atleast i dont think so, drifting is one of the most ineffeicent ways for a car to corner i cant imagine a 2 wheels vehicle being more efficient at it

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post #3 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-11-2005, 08:52 PM
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my guess would be he's sliding the rear tire and the front is countersteering, which would explain why it's pointing opposite the turn. he wins, so it's gotta be fast enough for him.




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post #4 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-11-2005, 08:54 PM
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Hmmm.... Gary McCoy won races sliding the front and rear. Nicky won Laguna sliding the rear.

Can't say it doesn't work if ti wins. Sometimes you have to understand where to go slow to go fast.

Signatures are stupid.
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post #5 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-11-2005, 08:59 PM
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yeah, i think thats what it is, but i cant imagine it being quicker around the corner that holding a stright steady line

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post #6 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-11-2005, 09:01 PM
 
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You see them late on the brakes and backing it when making a pass to block the racing line. Even though sometimes it is slower, it's about claiming that race line.
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post #7 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-11-2005, 09:11 PM
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guess you didnt take the msf course.. they explain at high speeds if you steer away you actually move towards the corner..

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post #8 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-11-2005, 09:15 PM
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a lot of that MSF stuff donesnt apply at the track.
thats why its caled a beginner course.

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post #9 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-11-2005, 09:18 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddo01881
guess you didnt take the msf course.. they explain at high speeds if you steer away you actually move towards the corner..
Easier said than done. Yes I took MSF, 3 CSS classes and a good amount of trackdays this year. But I guess you guys didn't see how he was drifting, opposite that of backing it in, from the outside coming in diagonally but the bike pointing outside not toward the apex but away from it. I haven't seen anybody doing that but him.
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post #10 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-11-2005, 09:23 PM
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didnt see the vid, but now that you explain it that may be momentum sliding the back the worng way as he brakes.
kinda like you do coming out of a high speed left/right chikane to the left hander and having to break hard while aiming the wrong way in gran turismo

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post #11 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-11-2005, 09:33 PM Thread Starter
 
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Kinda like that but he was coming after accelerating from a short straight than braking hard drifting in but pointing outwards. It would have made sense if came right off a corner accelerating but he wasn't. Anyways props to him!
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post #12 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-11-2005, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfpac52
You see them late on the brakes and backing it when making a pass to block the racing line. Even though sometimes it is slower, it's about claiming that race line.
i think ur right on! when racing, it has nothing to do with having the fastest laptime but how you get in the raceline and pass the competition to get the best line to get infront
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post #13 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-11-2005, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zizou
Kinda like that but he was coming after accelerating from a short straight than braking hard drifting in but pointing outwards. It would have made sense if came right off a corner accelerating but he wasn't. Anyways props to him!
mmmm, i see, well maybe its the "debo" the raceline thingy...

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post #14 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-11-2005, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snikwad
a lot of that MSF stuff donesnt apply at the track.
thats why its caled a beginner course.
and you're basing that on what track experience? it may not apply in a WSBK race, but at everyone else's pace it does...




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post #15 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-11-2005, 10:49 PM Thread Starter
 
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Vermeulen was leading the race and it's not like he needs to do a block pass or get ahead on a race line. Anyways, the topic is regarding how he drifts differently and uncommonly. Anybody who've watched the race chime in? Lap 5 of race 2 especially has a good footage on him doing it, maybe somebody who has it recorded can post an mpg of that in this thread.
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post #16 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-11-2005, 11:58 PM
 
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It's pretty simple, actually. I have the same problem into T1 @ Roebling. It's a subconscious move that is actually undesirable. It tends to happen coming down from a high speed to something much slower, as you saw in the hairpin at Magny-cours. It is a defense mechanism, basically your brain being sure to clip the apex. You end up having to counter-counter steer and that's what produces that look. I can't tell you why some people do it, but I can say it is slower. It was one of the most difficult things to overcome for me. If you watch the race, he manages to not do it on about half the laps.
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post #17 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-12-2005, 12:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hondaf4iguy
Nicky won Laguna sliding the rear.
Nicky was sliding both tires coming over the crest of turn 1. I believe that its called a double Freddie after Freddie spencer. The Sept 05 issue of Bike had somethings to say about it.

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post #18 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-12-2005, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zizou
Easier said than done. Yes I took MSF, 3 CSS classes and a good amount of trackdays this year. But I guess you guys didn't see how he was drifting, opposite that of backing it in, from the outside coming in diagonally but the bike pointing outside not toward the apex but away from it. I haven't seen anybody doing that but him.
so its the opposite of this?
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post #19 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-12-2005, 05:27 PM Thread Starter
 
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zus600rr, almost but his wheels (front and back) draws a straight line like on this crappy illustration :
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post #20 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-12-2005, 05:35 PM
 
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zus600 --->What you're doing there is standard. That's what you'd expect from either trailbraking with the rear or just braking so hard with the front that the back is almost in the air, while trying to countersteer. What they're talking about is the opposite, the rear pointing into the corner.
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post #21 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-12-2005, 06:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zizou
If you guys happen to watch WSBK this weekend, I was just scratching my head how Chris Vermeulen drifts the bike coming from the outside towards apex but the front wheel point away from the apex, doing the opposite of backing it in. How the hell is he doing it??? It not probably the fastest way around a corner but it sure is quite a spectacle. I'm a huge fan from the WSS days and can't wait how he'll fare this weekend in Philip Island.
i saw the same thing and was as speechless as the anouncers. i've never seen anything like it.

i've use the rear brake in turns but only after going in so hot i nearly **** my pants. i have no idea what it looked like but probably nothing like vermeulen or counter steering. i was just trying to keep from crashing.

i'd love to be able to do it as part of my normal riding.

Last edited by cbrmarc; 10-12-2005 at 06:23 PM.
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post #22 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-12-2005, 06:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by zus600rr#388
so its the opposite of this?
that's tight!!! i wish i could do it.
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post #23 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-12-2005, 08:10 PM
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it looks as if hes just contersteering the locked rear wheel and at the same time was preparing to start leaning into the turn.
cause look at which way his head is turned, hes going for the corner but had some technical difficulties on the way so hes fixing then on the move and still gong for the corner.

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post #24 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-12-2005, 08:21 PM
 
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I'll have to go re-watch the race, but what you guys are talking about doesn't make much sense.

Your saying he's holding it right? Not just fishtailing the rear right?
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post #25 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-12-2005, 08:30 PM
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look at the pick dude.
its not that crazy guys...
he locked it up and the rear chose to go that way, maybe because he had shifted his body weight to that side preping for the corner, and hes countersteering the rear lockup but starting to drop into the corner at the same time.
thats all it is..

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post #26 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-12-2005, 08:44 PM
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I was watching this race i recorded from the other day. It looks like hardbraking. He down shifts, the rear unsettles and then because of front brake pressure the rear floats a little before he tips it in.

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post #27 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-12-2005, 08:48 PM
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told ya...

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post #28 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-12-2005, 11:16 PM
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#488, that's AFM top gun Chris Siglin... pretty crazy dude and one of the fastest too.


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post #29 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-13-2005, 12:21 PM
 
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Snikwad, look at the illustration, not the pic. The pic is just sliding the rear, something that happens frequently to any late braking club racer. The illustration shows the opposite, something that makes no sense.
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post #30 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-13-2005, 01:36 PM
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actually i think the illustration is showing the same effect, unless you illustrate the rear wheel being INSIDE the turn relative to the front.




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