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post #1 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-07-2005, 06:49 PM Thread Starter
 
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Passing in a turn?

I would like to get some in put on this. I have a problem that I would like to solve on my ridding. I have been in a situation at times when I am behind someone going in too a turn and I get a better run out of the turn then the person in front so I start to pass on the out side. Well by the time im passing they start pushing me out so far that at times I have to go out in too the grass so they dont hit me. What can I change so this would not happen? Should I start passing on the inside? or wait to pass on the straight? What do you guys or girls do?
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post #2 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-07-2005, 06:55 PM
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IMO, the easiest thing to do is to pass faster. :)

To do that, fall back a bit and take a run at it. If you start the turn right on their ass, at the same speed as them, you'll have to accelerate much harder than them to pass. A big problem I have is passing "faster bikes" like this....I'll start around, but by the time I get even with them, the turn is over and we're on the straight, and their literbike eats me alive. So...I fall back a bit and take a run at it. By entering the turn faster than they are, I already have a jump on them and it's much easier to get around.

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post #3 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-07-2005, 07:48 PM
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time it and pick your line so that as they drift to the outside exiting the turn you can come in underneath as you enter the straight. also try carrying more entry speed than them to do the above.

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post #4 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-07-2005, 08:26 PM
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You have to get more comfortable with predicting the other riders line and knowing whether the opportunity is on the inside or the outside. Maybe the rider is one of those riders who likes to use ALL of the track and drifts wide exiting the turn. You never know what you're going to get. You have to get comfortable in seeing the line through or around the other rider instead of focusing on the rider.


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post #5 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-07-2005, 08:29 PM
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All good advice. With time, you will figure it out. Some passes will come easy, others a little harder. Keep focused and pay attention to what you are doing so you can take that to learn better next time.

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post #6 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-07-2005, 08:31 PM
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Just make sure there aren't any cars coming when you pass in a turn....









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post #7 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-08-2005, 12:39 AM
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post #8 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-08-2005, 01:24 AM
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If you know they are going to push wide on the exit, choose a different line that will set you up on the outside of the turn going in so you can cut back in to the inside on the exit of the turn. You can get a good drive out of the turn and it should be easier to get around them since they are pushing wide on the exit.

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post #9 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-08-2005, 02:26 AM
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+1 Spaceboy.

If the passee is someone who is about your pace or slower (but taking up all of the track on the exit :rolleyes:), you can overtake them by going in a little deeper before you turn in (which will momentarily make you lose ground on them), quickly get the bike turned, and make a beeline for the exit with the bike fairly straight up. This is "squaring off the corner" and is more of a literbike line, but it is very handy for the very scenario you describe.

Here's an example, not a perfect one, but it does describe the above. One of my favorite turns is T6 at Infineon Raceway, because it has so many passing opportunities: going in (even many experienced folks set up way wide, which boggles me), mid-turn (passing on outside/inside), and at the exit. Looking at this diagram:



The red line is the typical race line. The apex is way late, almost at the exit. For 600s, it's probably the fastest way to get through the corner. There is no distinctive turn-in point; you're basically entering mid-track, and progressively tightening up to hit the late apex. But you're also leaned over throughout a lot of the turn (and even out of the exit), which makes you cautious about getting on the throttle early. But if I'm behind someone that is about my pace or slower, I'l drift out a bit mid-turn (allowing the guy in front to gain a bike length or two), and make a more pronounced turn-in (green dot) to aim for the apex. Because I've gotten the bike turned so quickly, I'm relatively upright by the time I hit the apex and hard on the throttle, while the guy in front is still leaned over and (presumably) more tentative on the throttle. By getting on the gas earlier, I can get a much better drive onto the straight going into T7, allowing me to make a very effective pass at the exit, to the rider's left.

[Of course, all that is rendered moot as the guy repasses me in T7, as I am a pansy when it comes to T7, I have a major problem of getting on the brakes too early going in. LOL.]
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post #10 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-08-2005, 03:41 AM
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Another option is to simply out brake them into the corner (my personal favorite)... Although, at times, you may not be close enough to do this. If you're forced to make a move passed corner entry, I would have to agree with the techniques folks have posted above.

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post #11 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-08-2005, 07:09 AM
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i always prefer to pass on the inside over the outside. when passing on the outside you are taking a chance that the other racer won't crash and then slide into you. if you make a pass on the outside it has to be done quickly....

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post #12 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-08-2005, 07:48 AM
 
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nothing pisses me off more than people who try and pass on the outside. just hold your line
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post #13 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-08-2005, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SquidKid
nothing pisses me off more than people who try and pass on the outside. just hold your line
Well, when you're in a race, the whole point is to be that bike at the front! Are you suggesting that if my options where to pass you on the outside or follow you through the turn, I should follow?

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post #14 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-08-2005, 10:45 AM
 
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well when i was at racing school, an instructor tried to pass me on the outside of a turn where i always run way wide, needless to say he almost clipped my rear wheel... and when we returned to the padock, he made it seem like i was trying to block him out, which pissed me off because i wasnt about to argue about that, i just said sorry and looked like a fool.... im not saying dont pass on the outside, because it can be done safely, im just saying i hate when people do it, thats all.
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post #15 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-08-2005, 11:38 AM
 
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Awesome reply Quasi!!!!!



Like he said; on the 600's your best bet is the regular race line (red one), but if you have the power and can flick your bike over in an instant the green line *can* be quicker.


I never used to pass on the inside because I could never brake late enough on my stock front springs (on my F4). Once I got stiffer springs I could late brake and try and take the inside line.

I advise sticking to the inside every time you wanna pass someone in a turn. The guy on the inside can push you out, cause you to wreck and he won't.

So which guy would you rather be?


Also, watch his patterns for a lap. See where it is you can set him up and pass him SAFELY. Maybe it's in a carosel, or an S-turn..............just watch and see.
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post #16 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-08-2005, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SquidKid
well when i was at racing school, an instructor tried to pass me on the outside of a turn where i always run way wide, needless to say he almost clipped my rear wheel... and when we returned to the padock, he made it seem like i was trying to block him out, which pissed me off because i wasnt about to argue about that, i just said sorry and looked like a fool.... im not saying dont pass on the outside, because it can be done safely, im just saying i hate when people do it, thats all.
ah, gotcha...

that's sucks about your incident with the instructor. they should know better, than to try to pass a student on the outside...

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post #17 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-08-2005, 01:53 PM
 
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Quasi's answer is my way too. More and more, I find myself taking this type of line even when I'm not passing. But, you really need to have ultra confidence in your front end/feedback since you are going so deep into corners and turning late. It also helps if you know your bike doesn't have any issue with running wide on exit as well.

Last edited by 96SNAKE03RR; 12-08-2005 at 01:56 PM.
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post #18 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-08-2005, 04:18 PM
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passing on the outside is an art.. truly it's always taking a chance the inside rider will bin it and take you out with him.. as a club racer it's a tough call to make... glory or chance of spending even MORE money to fix repairs =]

my first crash ever was because of a badly attempted outside pass... probably why I'm a lil turned off by them.. when it's done right though it's incredible to watch

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post #19 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-08-2005, 06:25 PM
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I regularly pass on the outside but I do know I'm taking chances. My last race at Jennings, my grid positions were almost always on the outside and I would make up lots of positions by taking the outside line. On the last race, some straightened up and ran me off the track.

I'm heavier than most so I usually do most of my passing with more corner speed and outbraking when I can.

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post #20 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-08-2005, 07:08 PM Thread Starter
 
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All of this information is really helpful. I see the different lines on the graph and it makes sence. It opens up more posibilities to pass. It looks safer too. Thanks. I will start to practice this type of lines on track days.
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post #21 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-08-2005, 07:21 PM
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There is allot of good info here. I did not read any suggestions on braking later in the turn. If you out brake them, you will have gained a few precious 1/10th on them and should be able to get on the gas sooner. I learned this back in my supercross days and have applies it to all of my racing endevours.

Can some expert riders give feedback on this?

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post #22 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-08-2005, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NIKO
All of this information is really helpful. I see the different lines on the graph and it makes sence. It opens up more posibilities to pass. It looks safer too. Thanks. I will start to practice this type of lines on track days.
Don't just practice this type of line...practice all types of lines! Practice alternative, "non-ideal" lines. In a race situation, you are not always going to be able to execute your first or second favorite line depending on the situation, so you'll need backup plans if you want to make a safe, successful pass.
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post #23 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-08-2005, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NIKO
I would like to get some in put on this. I have a problem that I would like to solve on my ridding. I have been in a situation at times when I am behind someone going in too a turn and I get a better run out of the turn then the person in front so I start to pass on the out side. Well by the time im passing they start pushing me out so far that at times I have to go out in too the grass so they dont hit me. What can I change so this would not happen? Should I start passing on the inside? or wait to pass on the straight? What do you guys or girls do?
The power of our bikes is nuts. And unless you really want to start scarying the chit out of yourself wait till the straight. Or even try and out brake them on the next turn. This all take practice, some do it better than others.
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post #24 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-08-2005, 08:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zus600rr#388
The power of our bikes is nuts. And unless you really want to start scarying the chit out of yourself wait till the straight. Or even try and out brake them on the next turn. This all take practice, some do it better than others.
Don't know about you guys, but I can't just outpower everyone. We are talking about racing not trackdays right?

Anyway, passing on the outside sucks. There are one or two corners I'll do it on, but for the most part I much prefer the inside. You just have to carry so much more corner speed to pass someone on the outside, that its very difficult to do against a decent rider. Get comfortable greasing up the bike and jamming it in a hole the size of a shoebox.

I personally prefer just to outbrake. Unless whoever is in front of you is really riding a defensive line, you can almost always move inside and just brake late enough to show them a wheel. Just beat them to turn in and most riders will wus off their line and let you by. Just trail to shag speed so you don't go wide or you'll give it right back.
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post #25 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-08-2005, 09:25 PM
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You have to "predikt" where they're going to go :) In general though, if you can see how they ride for a couple of turns, you can kind of gauge where they'll go and set up accordingly. BigTuna brought up a good point, if you pass on the outside you run the risk of them taking you out. Having a tighter line inside is safer and a lot of fun. Good luck.
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post #26 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-08-2005, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quasi888
Don't just practice this type of line...practice all types of lines! Practice alternative, "non-ideal" lines. In a race situation, you are not always going to be able to execute your first or second favorite line depending on the situation, so you'll need backup plans if you want to make a safe, successful pass.
+1 on what quasi says also. You'll need to adapt to the situation. The more experience you get riding, the more you'll see what type of radical lines you can take. Just start practicing at the track days, ideally with the Advanced riding groups.
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post #27 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-09-2005, 04:34 PM
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The Best way to pass on the outside!

by jesus


When you pull up even (to the other bike) on the outside. Simply tap that little RED switch on their right handle bar (aka kill switch). This my friend is the way to get it done:icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol: . I'm just kidding people!
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post #28 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-09-2005, 05:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zus600rr#388
The Best way to pass on the outside!

by jesus


When you pull up even (to the other bike) on the outside. Simply tap that little RED switch on their right handle bar (aka kill switch). This my friend is the way to get it done:icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol: . I'm just kidding people!
Not too disimilar from my prefered way to beat liter bikes off stop lights. Simply line up on their left, casually slide your right leg out and kick down their stand. Then, giggle hysterically as their bike dies when they let out the clutch.
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post #29 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-09-2005, 05:25 PM
 
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haha i've dont that before
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post #30 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-10-2005, 02:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mule-madness
ah, gotcha...

that's sucks about your incident with the instructor. they should know better, than to try to pass a student on the outside...
No, the instructor should no better than to criticise a student for their (the instructor) mistake.
Passing on the outside is ok but is the responsibility of the guy making the pass, to complete it cleanly.
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