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post #1 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 12:58 PM Thread Starter
 
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How many racers actually believe this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTuna
crashing is part of going faster.


Discuss....................lol
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post #2 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 01:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sargeek1975
Discuss....................lol
Its kinda true. I mean if you're going to go faster and take risks, your probability of wrecking is higher. If you're prepared to ride fast, you better be prepared to take a wreck at that speed. Because evenetually it'll happen.
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post #3 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 01:02 PM
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I think the truth to that comment is that the faster you go, the less amount of room for error you have.

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post #4 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 01:02 PM
 
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It is true...when i first started on the track, i took it easy and didnt crash but when I started to care about lap times, I rode the bike harder and practice like it was a race...needless to say, you're taking a higher risk of crashing and I did crash several times and all have been lowsides
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post #5 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 01:02 PM Thread Starter
 
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So you're saying that the only way to learn to ride faster is to actually try and ride above your current level?


Say.............110% of your skill level?
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post #6 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 01:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sargeek1975
So you're saying that the only way to learn to ride faster is to actually try and ride above your current level?


Say.............110% of your skill level?
No, we're just saying its a higher chance of you wrecking if you're riding harder. Like eazy said, there's less room for error.
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post #7 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 01:15 PM Thread Starter
 
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So I'll re-word it then and ask another question:




Can I become faster out on the track if I only ever ride at say 85% of my skill level? And if so; do I stand a high chance of wrecking?
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post #8 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 01:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sargeek1975
So you're saying that the only way to learn to ride faster is to actually try and ride above your current level?


Say.............110% of your skill level?
Ride within your limits....thats the main rule...you will improve with more seat time on the track
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post #9 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 01:16 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papo600RR
Ride within your limits....
But then why would I wreck?
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post #10 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papo600RR
Ride within your limits....thats the main rule...you will improve with more seat time on the track
I ride within my limits on the street(like around 75% of my limits) But at the track you have to push yourself a little bit past your limits to get better... and then a little more and a little more.. Problem is dont take a giant bit and choke on it..

Last edited by AlpineJim; 12-14-2005 at 01:25 PM.
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post #11 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 01:24 PM Thread Starter
 
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That's at the heart of my question:


Who believes that you have to ride above your level to get faster? Obviously you do Alpine; who else?
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post #12 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sargeek1975
That's at the heart of my question:


Who believes that you have to ride above your level to get faster? Obviously you do Alpine; who else?
But to a point.... you have to be smooth before you can be fast.. I mean you want work on that first and then push yourself...
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post #13 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sargeek1975
So you're saying that the only way to learn to ride faster is to actually try and ride above your current level?


Say.............110% of your skill level?
Yes you must ride above your current level but I believe it is your comfort level not skill level. My progression in getting faster has always been getting past mental blocks like damaging my bike, getting hurt and just plain faith in my own riding skills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sargeek1975
But then why would I wreck?
My first crash after three years of trackdays and racing was caused by oil on the track by the leader of the race.
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post #14 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sargeek1975
So I'll re-word it then and ask another question:




Can I become faster out on the track if I only ever ride at say 85% of my skill level? And if so; do I stand a high chance of wrecking?
Good question. See this has been my theory on riding since I started. I believe you can improve. Just because you're not going all out doesn't mean you're not learning critical things on the track. If anything you're going to become faster just because you're being smoother.

As for your chance of wrecking, I believe its a lot lower.

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post #15 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 01:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sargeek1975
That's at the heart of my question:


Who believes that you have to ride above your level to get faster? Obviously you do Alpine; who else?
I do too but it's a little more complicated than that. I think you can ride within your limits and get faster because of more track time, better knowledge of your bike and what the suspension and tires are doing etc.

I also think that to improve, sometimes you have to go over what your "perceived" limits are. A lot of this is mental anyway so if you can overcome a mental barrier(whatever that may be) that will in turn, make you more confident, smoother at speed, less apt to panic etc.
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post #16 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 01:41 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eazy e
Good question. See this has been my theory on riding since I started. I believe you can improve. Just because you're not going all out doesn't mean you're not learning critical things on the track. If anything you're going to become faster just because you're being smoother.

As for your chance of wrecking, I believe its a lot lower.
As if anyone hasn't guessed yet; this is my belief as well.



It kinda irk's me when I hear people stating that you have to ride above your level to get faster, like the comment RLS just made.

I think riding above your level does nothing but make the track an unsafe place for everyone while you're out there.


I am proof positive that you can become faster while riding within your limits; even during races.
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post #17 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 01:43 PM
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post #18 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sargeek1975
It kinda irk's me when I hear people stating that you have to ride above your level to get faster, like the comment RLS just made.

I think riding above your level does nothing but make the track an unsafe place for everyone while you're out there.


I am proof positive that you can become faster while riding within your limits; even during races.
So you ALWAYs ride well with in your limits on the track?
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post #19 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 02:00 PM
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I think that we're all missing a certain point in this conversation.

When you're riding faster and faster on the track, not only are you pushing the limits of your own skill levels, you may be pushing the limits of your current suspension, tires, physics, et cetera. There are so many factors going into a crash.

Let me ask a question: MotoGP riders are the number one professionals in our industry. They still crash. They are constantly pushing the limits of everything. Does that mean they're riding above their skill level? Probably not. Why do you think John Hopkins bike is FULLY electronic? This thing is insane. It even has sensors in the rearsets and the handlebars to give data on how much pressure he is putting on them fully leaned and in straightaways. All this data helps them figure out how to make the bike faster, but it also helps them figure out the factors of a crash.

I think my main point here is that mistakes inevitably happen, regardless of your skill level and regardless of your ability to "push the limits."



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post #20 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 02:02 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chkaotic
If you want to know how to walk better, you have to know what it feels like to fall
That's gotta be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.


I guess when my daughter starts to walk for the very first time I'll just run up to her and knock her over. When she starts crying and my wife asks me why in the world I would ever do that, I'll just say that I want her to be the best walker ever!!!!



Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpineJim
So you ALWAYs ride well with in your limits on the track?
I try to...............

This last track day on the new RR I was in the Blue group with TPM. During my second session I came in early because I thought I was going wayyyy too damn fast out there for a track day.

No Coaches were keeping up with me and two of my friends on my race team (who I could NEVER catch during a race or track day last year while I was on my F4) couldn't keep up with me either.

I felt that it was time to pit in because I was enjoying that speed and pushing the bike a little bit too much to be healthy and safe out there.
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post #21 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sargeek1975
As if anyone hasn't guessed yet; this is my belief as well.



It kinda irk's me when I hear people stating that you have to ride above your level to get faster, like the comment RLS just made.

I think riding above your level does nothing but make the track an unsafe place for everyone while you're out there.


I am proof positive that you can become faster while riding within your limits; even during races.
You'll reach a certain point where you must ride outside your comfort level to get faster. If not you'll have your yellow plates forever and have a rough time reaching the podium consistently. I'm not saying you have to ride over your head, but most people leave a comfortable reserve, and until you leave less of a reserve you'll never reach your potential. Ride how you want and believe what you want, but taking more risk is a part of going faster. To each his own. Good luck.
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post #22 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 02:07 PM
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a very good point, but I think in the case of the motoGP guys, well they are pretty much pushing every limit possible. They just have so much damn talent that they get away with a lot of stuff. But they also crash...A LOT!

I've also heard them talk about how during a race, the majority of the time they aren't running at 100%, they are running a damn fast pace, but not all out. I think they can only get in a lap or two at a 100% pace.

I may be wrong on that point though



Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwing
I think that we're all missing a certain point in this conversation.

When you're riding faster and faster on the track, not only are you pushing the limits of your own skill levels, you may be pushing the limits of your current suspension, tires, physics, et cetera. There are so many factors going into a crash.

Let me ask a question: MotoGP riders are the number one professionals in our industry. They still crash. They are constantly pushing the limits of everything. Does that mean they're riding above their skill level? Probably not. Why do you think John Hopkins bike is FULLY electronic? This thing is insane. It even has sensors in the rearsets and the handlebars to give data on how much pressure he is putting on them fully leaned and in straightaways. All this data helps them figure out how to make the bike faster, but it also helps them figure out the factors of a crash.

I think my main point here is that mistakes inevitably happen, regardless of your skill level and regardless of your ability to "push the limits."

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post #23 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 02:08 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parapuke
You'll reach a certain point where you must ride outside your comfort level to get faster.

I *kinda* agree with that...................and I'll cross that bridge if I ever reach it.



But we're not talking about people who have already done two seasons at the WERA Novice level; I'm talking about the yahoo's that go out there for a track day or their first race season and ride like idiots because they can't control their bike.

They feel that they have to ride above their level to improve.................gimme a break.
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post #24 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 02:09 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eazy e
I've also heard them talk about how during a race, the majority of the time they aren't running at 100%, they are running a damn fast pace, but not all out. I think they can only get in a lap or two at a 100% pace.

Rossi is the best example of that.
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post #25 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 02:09 PM
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But doesn't just plain experience on the track add to your comfort level? I"m not trying to argue here, but its kind of like if you're at a track day and you feel like you're just going nice and smooth, not all that fast only to find out you just put in your fastest lap of the day.




Quote:
Originally Posted by parapuke
You'll reach a certain point where you must ride outside your comfort level to get faster. If not you'll have your yellow plates forever and have a rough time reaching the podium consistently. I'm not saying you have to ride over your head, but most people leave a comfortable reserve, and until you leave less of a reserve you'll never reach your potential. Ride how you want and believe what you want, but taking more risk is a part of going faster. To each his own. Good luck.

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post #26 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 02:11 PM
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My ex always said "If you're not crashing, you're not going fast enough."

We had the LONGEST conversations about this mentality. The first question I always asked was "Shaun, if you crash, you're not going to win the race. And it's been my experience that the fastest person usually wins the race."

He tried to explain to me (and I was being difficult, because I DO get it) that if you are not constantly trying to stick your toes in deeper water, you're never going to learn how to swim. There are so many things to do to improve your lap times. One has to change so many things every lap out there to get faster: suspension, tires, racelines, shifts, throttle, lean, it goes on and on. Most of the changes and gambles work - some of them do not. It's not so much that it's riding outside your skill level, it's a game of trial and error to see what works and what doesn't.



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post #27 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 02:13 PM
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trying to push too many things at one time can be a very bad thing too!

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post #28 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 02:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sargeek1975

I try to...............

This last track day on the new RR I was in the Blue group with TPM. During my second session I came in early because I thought I was going wayyyy too damn fast out there for a track day.

No Coaches were keeping up with me and two of my friends on my race team (who I could NEVER catch during a race or track day last year while I was on my F4) couldn't keep up with me either.
I ride with TPM in Blue. I'll look forward to seeing your talent out there.
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post #29 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 02:24 PM Thread Starter
 
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Whoah there fella................talent?





I think you may have me confused with somebody else. :headscrat



There were a few people off of this site out there at CMP...................
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post #30 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 02:25 PM
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If you run at 90% at the track and you always run at 90% won't it go down... I mean if I rode like I do now when I first started to riding at the track I wouldnt be here...
and I still dont think Im at 100%... still getting better everytime i go to the track.
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