Increasing stock trail - 600RR.net
Trackdays Privateers and Professionals
Sponsored by: MOTO-D Racing

 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-24-2015, 01:04 PM Thread Starter
Knee Dragger
 
Spaghetti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: NYC
Posts: 106
Thanks: 14
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Increasing stock trail

I feel like the stock trail setup could be increased a bit for track. My 2009 seems to have some high frequency instability when entering corners, compared to what I have experienced with other track-built bikes (636 and S1000RR). I can attribute this to either the stock suspensions (I had Ohlins on the other bikes), or not enough trail. I'm leaning towards trail because of the extreme agility of my bike in turning. Basically I have more trail than I need and I could trade off some of it.

I also tried switching tires, from performance street to Q3, but it didn't fix the problem: the better tire increased traction and stability at lean angle, but didn't reduce that "uneasy" feeling I have entering corners. What do you think?
Spaghetti is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-24-2015, 02:00 PM
Training Wheel Hero
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 17
Thanks: 6
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Is your steering damper broken/disconnected?

My 09 is extremely stable.
cuckoo is offline  
post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-24-2015, 02:24 PM
Moto GP Racer
 
FightingChance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 7,043
Thanks: 0
Thanked 700 Times in 601 Posts
Feedback Score: 10 reviews
600RRs are known for their extreme stability, at the expensive of some agility, so it sort of sounds like something is wrong here. In fact, when I had my forks worked on, they added 15mm to increase trail a bit (I think I have this right). Who set the suspension?
FightingChance is offline  
 
post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-24-2015, 10:32 PM Thread Starter
Knee Dragger
 
Spaghetti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: NYC
Posts: 106
Thanks: 14
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
My local track mechanic, basic suspension settings. He's done a lot of work on many race bikes, I have no reason to doubt his work.


Sent from Motorcycle.com Free App
Spaghetti is offline  
post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-24-2015, 10:38 PM Thread Starter
Knee Dragger
 
Spaghetti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: NYC
Posts: 106
Thanks: 14
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
I think if the steering dumper was broken it would be a lot more obvious something is wrong. Is it possible to even ride a bike in those conditions. Besides I have no complaint going in hard braking, the front suspension bends really nice and gradually.

Again, it was more obvious when going from a track bmw1000rr and ninja 636 to my 2009. I got used to it, maybe it's a difference in suspensions quality.


Sent from Motorcycle.com Free App
Spaghetti is offline  
post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-25-2015, 12:14 AM
BOTY 2014 Winner
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 4,625
Thanks: 14
Thanked 1,056 Times in 860 Posts
Garage
Feedback Score: 3 reviews
if you want to add trail you're going to spend some money.

you have a couple of options. either adjustable clamps, or you could do a front end swap.


i used an 04-05 cbr 1000rr triple on my build. it has a 25mm offset instead of the 30 like your bike. i did this intentionally to tone down the twitchiness from my light front wheel, and to add some better characteristics finishing corners. the bike handles very well in this configuration and i'm very happy with it.


HOWEVER


the cbr thousand triples are 54mm lower and 50mm upper clamps, your 600 forks are too small.

the cbr thousand fork spacing is 214mm instead of i believe 206mm on your cbr 600

if you wanted to do the swap, you'd probably have to do the whole front end, and on top of that still figure out a damper.



adjustable clamps are probably your best bet.
wibbly is offline  
post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-25-2015, 07:26 AM
World Superbike Racer
 
Miweber929's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Woodbury, MN
Posts: 1,963
Thanks: 203
Thanked 565 Times in 446 Posts
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Does your bike have completely stock suspension? The other area you can mess with to cause instability is rear ride height so if you have an aftermarket shock you can to set it at a more "stock" height to bring it back or if it's stock lower your preload a tick.

As stated the CBR is very stable stock so give us some background on your bike before you go looking for major changes in geometry.

Year?
Stock suspension?
Suspension serviced recently?
Your weight?
Any other changes that might affect handling?
Tire sizes, front and rear?

I feel like you're chasing something else here.

Mike
Miweber929 is offline  
post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-25-2015, 07:40 AM Thread Starter
Knee Dragger
 
Spaghetti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: NYC
Posts: 106
Thanks: 14
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
It's a 2009 stock suspensions, my weight is 175lbs (at least 180lbs with gear?).

Another way to describe this: the rear feels "light on the pavement" causing some instability when entering corners. It's subtle, and I learnt to live with it, but definitely noticeable compared to the other bikes.

At first I thought the Michelin Power Pilot weren't as good as the Q3 I had on the other bikes, but then after switching to Q3 on this bike I noticed the benefit is more apparent at full lean angle and accelerating out of the corners, rather than entering.
Spaghetti is offline  
post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-25-2015, 11:19 AM
World Superbike Racer
 
Miweber929's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Woodbury, MN
Posts: 1,963
Thanks: 203
Thanked 565 Times in 446 Posts
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaghetti View Post
It's a 2009 stock suspensions, my weight is 175lbs (at least 180lbs with gear?).

Another way to describe this: the rear feels "light on the pavement" causing some instability when entering corners. It's subtle, and I learnt to live with it, but definitely noticeable compared to the other bikes.

At first I thought the Michelin Power Pilot weren't as good as the Q3 I had on the other bikes, but then after switching to Q3 on this bike I noticed the benefit is more apparent at full lean angle and accelerating out of the corners, rather than entering.
OK, that's some info.

Where is your preload set on the back? The 09-12 CBR's come with way stiff springs (1.0's if memory serves me) stock that work great for us fat guys like me but are too hard for the normal guys like you; if you are running high preload on the rear shock (you should probably be at the stock position or one lower) and/or low preload (compression settings would also make a difference here) you could be underlapping the rear and overloading the front making it feel twitchy. Springs in the .90 or .95 would probably suit your weight better. It's not a definite thing, though, people feel things differently.

PP's are good tires, you shouldn't have much difference between them and the Q3's, though I find PP's to have a weird tip in where it sort of falls to tips into the first part of the turn in then hook up and feel confident and stable, Q3's should be more even all around (in full disclosure i've not ridden a bike with Q3's though Dunlop's usually are even feeling). Someone with more experience should be able to chime in.

What tire sizes and what pressures do you run? That can be a factor as well.

When was the last time the suspension was serviced or setup for you and your weight?

Do the forks stick out the top of the triple clamps at all? Can you take a pic if they do?

Again, the bike should be stable, I think you might be chasing setup issues.

Mike
Miweber929 is offline  
post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-25-2015, 11:36 AM
05/16 BOTM Winner / Pocketbike Racer
 
teetopps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: cny
Posts: 342
Thanks: 41
Thanked 42 Times in 39 Posts
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
What about running a taller rear tire? (190/55, 190/60). Im not sure exaclty how that affects trail but the larger contact patch may stabilize the bike a bit more. Plus turn in will be a bit easier too.

Last edited by teetopps; 06-25-2015 at 11:39 AM.
teetopps is offline  
post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-25-2015, 12:15 PM Thread Starter
Knee Dragger
 
Spaghetti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: NYC
Posts: 106
Thanks: 14
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Basic suspensions setup (sag, damping) was performed last year in September after I purchased the bike and I've noticed this problem since then. I remember deflating the Pilot rear tire down to 26psi to compensate the issue. I had regular 180/55 Michelin Power Pilot (not CT) before, now 190 Q3 so the contact patch is a bit wider. I don't have access to the bike right now, I'll post pics of the triple clamps and rear suspension setup next week.

I can't completely rule out a cold tire as the reason. But then again, I would have noticed the same thing on the other bikes at the begin of each session. Things do get better when tires are hot, however that could be the much improved grip masking the non-optimal setup.

Last edited by Spaghetti; 06-25-2015 at 12:18 PM.
Spaghetti is offline  
post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-25-2015, 01:38 PM
Training Wheel Hero
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 17
Thanks: 6
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
what pressure were you running prior to 26psi?
cuckoo is offline  
post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-25-2015, 02:40 PM Thread Starter
Knee Dragger
 
Spaghetti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: NYC
Posts: 106
Thanks: 14
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuckoo View Post
what pressure were you running prior to 26psi?
32psi rear.
Spaghetti is offline  
post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-25-2015, 03:03 PM
Moto GP Racer
 
FightingChance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 7,043
Thanks: 0
Thanked 700 Times in 601 Posts
Feedback Score: 10 reviews
32psi... hot, right?
FightingChance is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to FightingChance For This Useful Post:
cuckoo (06-25-2015)
post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-25-2015, 06:47 PM Thread Starter
Knee Dragger
 
Spaghetti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: NYC
Posts: 106
Thanks: 14
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by FightingChance View Post
32psi... hot, right?
Yes, although I remember once seeing the gauge at 34psi right after a session. Also I believe the Pilot (and Michelin street in general) require more pressure than other brands.
Spaghetti is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the 600RR.net forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome