On moving from the 600RR to a liter bike - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-19-2015, 12:46 PM Thread Starter
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On moving from the 600RR to a liter bike

So after progressing in my track days career to the advanced group and soon expert/club racing level, I'm wondering whether I should just upgrade my 2009 RR or move to a 1000cc bike. I'm not talking power here, that's the last of my concerns, but for a track/race bike a 1000cc seems to make more sense.

Upgrading the RR at this point means buying Ohlins, a slipper clutch, reflash the ECU or get a racing one or add more dyno/bazza units, quick shifter, wheel spacers, new rotors, chain kit, master cylinder. That's easily $5,000 on the top of what I already paid for brake lines, carbon brake pads, PCV, master cylinder, rear sets...

Or...

Buying, say, a 2014 Aprilia RSV4 for $12,000 complete of electronics, slipper clutch, brembo, better suspensions, racing seat (ok I'll still need a racing/reflashed ECU).

Don't you get more track bike value with a 1000cc?
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post #2 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-23-2015, 06:26 AM
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Yes and no. This is a complicated question that would depend on your skill level and bank account.

Have you really squeezed out all that a 600 can give you at the track? This also means skill level. Are you running in the A/Expert group at the track with your 600? If so, then yes a liter bike upgrade might help you get a little faster. This also depends on the track you run. More technical tracks will not see much better laptimes, but a track with longer straights may be better with a 1k.

If you feel that you have reached or close to the 600's limit, then a newer liter bike is not a bad idea if you can afford it.

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post #3 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-23-2015, 07:56 AM
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I ride both and it is no real problem to flip back and forth between the two bikes.... I ride the bike that has the best tires..... LOL

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post #4 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-23-2015, 08:41 AM Thread Starter
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I'm about to move to the Expert group next season, but it's true that I have a few seconds to go in skills improvements on my 600.
The thing that bothers me is that I need to spend money on my 600 to have the same track upgrades a 1000cc offers standard. For example, I'm still riding on stock suspensions, no slipper clutch, no traction control, no data logger. With a 2014/2015 RS4 you get better suspensions, slipper, quick shift, ride-by-wire, racing seat, traction control and I believe a data logger too.

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post #5 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-23-2015, 09:14 AM
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I'm not even at y'alls level and I'm considering the switch from my CBR600RRA to a CBR1000RR because of the suspension and brakes...and apparently the speed limit in Texas is "let 'er tip"

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post #6 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-23-2015, 02:11 PM
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No way no matter what the 600rr is gunna be cheaper.. even if you buy a full suspension and a slipper your at 3k. The suspension will then be better than the stock ohlins on the liter and the aftermarket slipper will also be better than the factory on the liter..

The 600 is cheaper and youll have a better Suspension and set up imo. If you have the money definitely get the liter i think it would be more fun. Youll still want the basics tho rear sets, clip ons, reflash, exhaust, tune, pads, and mastercyclinder

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post #7 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-23-2015, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mran556 View Post
No way no matter what the 600rr is gunna be cheaper.. even if you buy a full suspension and a slipper your at 3k. The suspension will then be better than the stock ohlins on the liter and the aftermarket slipper will also be better than the factory on the liter..

The 600 is cheaper and youll have a better Suspension and set up imo. If you have the money definitely get the liter i think it would be more fun. Youll still want the basics tho rear sets, clip ons, reflash, exhaust, tune, pads, and mastercyclinder
I think he's right about this...nevertheless I still want a CBR1000RR...with sliders, braided lines, and C.F. rims.

I think I've just grown tired of wrenching more than riding, and my 600RA weighs about as much as a 1000RR because of the ABS, but the front rotors are 10mm smaller and it feels cramped since I tested a 1000RR.

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post #8 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-23-2015, 04:29 PM Thread Starter
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... and it feels cramped since I tested a 1000RR.
Good point about the ergonomics. I'm 5'10 and the 600RR is a bit too small compared to another 1000SR I tried. I believe in general all liter bikes are a bit better in ergonomics for somebody my height.
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post #9 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-23-2015, 04:53 PM
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It's human nature to want "more" or try something different - at least it is with me. I'd resist the change unless you're having the incurable itch.

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post #10 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-23-2015, 05:20 PM
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Good point about the ergonomics. I'm 5'10 and the 600RR is a bit too small compared to another 1000SR I tried. I believe in general all liter bikes are a bit better in ergonomics for somebody my height.
I'm 5' 10" as well and I average 68kg; my 600rr has plenty of power, even after 4 years, but the flickability comes at a cost; my elbows and knees fighting for the same space and time lol.




Quote:
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It's human nature to want "more" or try something different - at least it is with me. I'd resist the change unless you're having the incurable itch.
Trust me dude, I've had to develop tunnel vision specifically for getting oil filters from my local dealer because the only way to get to the parts counter is to walk directly through the showroom.

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post #11 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-23-2015, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbrkat28 View Post
I'm 5' 10" as well and I average 68kg; my 600rr has plenty of power, even after 4 years, but the flickability comes at a cost; my elbows and knees fighting for the same space and time lol.
I'm 6'2", 77kg. No problems with 600RR ergos. Then again I came up through YSR50's, NSR250's, RS250's, & Hawk GT's. The 600RR is downright roomy compared to all of those.

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post #12 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-23-2015, 06:37 PM
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I'm 6'2", 77kg. No problems with 600RR ergos. Then again I came up through YSR50's, NSR250's, RS250's, & Hawk GT's. The 600RR is downright roomy compared to all of those.
Yea; it's all relative from bike to bike and also the environment...Dallas doesn't have mountain hairpins, and I've found very few roads that a 1000 wouldn't be able to handle as well as my 600...I live in the city, but go 15 minutes north and you'll find some very nice sweepers.

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post #13 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-23-2015, 07:34 PM
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Buying, say, a 2014 Aprilia RSV4 for $12,000 complete of electronics, slipper clutch, brembo, better suspensions, racing seat (ok I'll still need a racing/reflashed ECU).

Don't you get more track bike value with a 1000cc?
You can get all of that with 600's as well. Buy a daytona 675R for the best value out there IMO, or go to WERA and buy a fully prepped R6. Either will give you lots of track goodness. You don't NEED any of that to race with, but everybody wants it. 3 out of 4 of the top spots in the ASMA final race went to 636's with a 1k in 4th. I don't think there are a ton of tracks out there where a 1k is a big advantage.

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post #14 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-24-2015, 08:37 AM Thread Starter
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post #15 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-24-2015, 09:12 AM
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You also have to remember that transitioning from a 600 to a 1000 is two completely different riding styles. Different lines and different corner speeds. 1K's are a point and shoot weapon and 600rr are a toy that you can ride the socks off and still have fun....

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post #16 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-24-2015, 12:14 PM
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A couple of weeks ago a friend of mine let me try his CBR1000RR 2008 on the roads we hit every weekend.

It's a completely different thing, different style, more stiff, more power, heavier in every aspect.

I normally do my usual route in 2nd and 3rd gear on my 600RR... On his 1000RR I never had to go to 3rd... Second gear was more than enough...

600rr is lighter, moves more rattles more... is easier to manuver... a 1000RR is gonna require more tough inputs.

I have to admit that having that much power on the wrist feel sexy and scary at the same time.



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post #17 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-24-2015, 12:36 PM
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I have both in the garage, and a mate who races national aussie supersport (and did a race recently on a super bike).

I'd say keep the 600 - for track.

Why?


Several reasons:

Your tyre bill will be marginally cheaper (and i suspect this will outweigh any cost savings by "buying a 1000 to get the shiny bits")
To ride a 1000 hard is a lot more physically demanding than a 600 (mate was exhausted, he's a state champ on 600 (graduated last year to racing national level), after a couple of laps at race pace on 1000 was buggered)

YMMV, depends on the tracks you're racing, etc.... but yeah, don't under-estimate the jump to 1000 on track. It's not just a faster 600. The effort is just much more.


For street the 1000 is a much lazier bike. Effortless power. If you were asking whether or not to step to 1000 for street, i'd say yeah go for it no question.

Riding one hard on circuit though.... totally different situation. Depends how serious you are though I guess. As I said, the mate i mention above is racing at national level... but yeah, punting a 1000 around at pace is a lot more physical effort. Partially weight. Partialy because as above they are point and shoot. Harder acceleration. Harder braking. More sliding. Etc...

I kept my 600 when i upgraded to 1000 to use mostly for track. Now i've started doing so, i don't think i'd be much quicker on the 1000 really.

Ohlins and Brembos etc. aren't going to magically make you faster. Buy a rear shock for your 600, re-spring both ends for your weight, re-valve the forks, maybe get a quick shifter (mate won state championship without one) and maybe a slipper clutch and enjoy :D The stock brakes are good enough (again, state championship with them), just put appropriate pads in it.

2c.


edit:
and yeah, every time i hop back on my 600 i feel like i can abuse it so much more. you don't notice the weight quite so much stepping up (maybe too busy going gaga over the torque), but stepping back from 1000 -> 600 it is dramatic.

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post #18 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-24-2015, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
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I have both in the garage, and a mate who races national aussie supersport (and did a race recently on a super bike).

I'd say keep the 600 - for track.

Why?


Several reasons:

Your tyre bill will be marginally cheaper (and i suspect this will outweigh any cost savings by "buying a 1000 to get the shiny bits")
To ride a 1000 hard is a lot more physically demanding than a 600 (mate was exhausted, he's a state champ on 600 (graduated last year to racing national level), after a couple of laps at race pace on 1000 was buggered)

YMMV, depends on the tracks you're racing, etc.... but yeah, don't under-estimate the jump to 1000 on track. It's not just a faster 600. The effort is just much more.


For street the 1000 is a much lazier bike. Effortless power. If you were asking whether or not to step to 1000 for street, i'd say yeah go for it no question.

Riding one hard on circuit though.... totally different situation. Depends how serious you are though I guess. As I said, the mate i mention above is racing at national level... but yeah, punting a 1000 around at pace is a lot more physical effort. Partially weight. Partialy because as above they are point and shoot. Harder acceleration. Harder braking. More sliding. Etc...

I kept my 600 when i upgraded to 1000 to use mostly for track. Now i've started doing so, i don't think i'd be much quicker on the 1000 really.

Ohlins and Brembos etc. aren't going to magically make you faster. Buy a rear shock for your 600, re-spring both ends for your weight, re-valve the forks, maybe get a quick shifter (mate won state championship without one) and maybe a slipper clutch and enjoy :D The stock brakes are good enough (again, state championship with them), just put appropriate pads in it.

2c.


edit:
and yeah, every time i hop back on my 600 i feel like i can abuse it so much more. you don't notice the weight quite so much stepping up (maybe too busy going gaga over the torque), but stepping back from 1000 -> 600 it is dramatic.
I thank you for your input dude; I have to take about a one year hiatus from riding and unfortunately it means selling my 600, I originally thought about buying a 1000RR upon my return but taking it to a track before I "get back on the horse"

Now I'm rethinking that idea.

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post #19 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-24-2015, 07:02 PM
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That's a really good point about the tires, I didn't even think about that before thro mentioned it. I have a friend that races an RSV-4 Factory and he rips through slicks. He'll go through a couple in a weekend of racing because that thing is constantly spinning the rear tire, even with traction control on there. He stepped up from a built R6, which still shredded tires pretty good ha, but this definitely costs him more just in tire costs. Don't get me wrong, he loves it, but it's a different animal.

If you are concerned about trying to throw money at your bike, why not sell it and get one that's already "built" ? Race bikes generally don't hold their value as well as street bikes (often same year race bikes can be cheaper). If you play your cards right you can find one with full suspension and all the other necessary bolt ons for a solid price, often with spares. (this being said I don't know what you are currently riding) You might be able to save some of your money going this route. As fun as it is to build something for yourself it often isn't cost effective.

For me I was able to get a race bike for 3.2K (2006 model year), full Race tech suspension front and rear, rear sets, clip ons, full exhaust, power commander, race plastics w/spares, fully drilled, case and body sliders and a gpr steering stabilizer. Granted it's a little rough around the edges but it does the trick, quite well. And you are going to crash! Nice to have something that's already been through it's paces as long as it's well taken care of

Just my .02

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post #20 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-25-2015, 09:16 AM
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post #21 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-25-2015, 12:05 PM
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Yup, litres eat tyres quick, especially if you ride them hard. If you're serious about track days or racing tyres are a big $ item.

Now you may laugh... but if you're seriously considering the $ side of things, have you considered racing something smaller? For casual racing locally where i am we have a production 250 based class. Our local tracks are quite short, and obviously the bikes are slow, but there are several benefits you may consider:

1 set of tyres will last most of a race season (vs. 1+ set per weekend for a 600 and upwards from there as you get more competitive or ride a 1000)
same for brake pads
its all about corner speed
if you bin it, who cares? they are dirt cheap to repair/replace
modifications are limited - it's low budget racing, you're not going to be competing with someone who's spent 10k on mods.

Am actually considering getting a production 250 (Ninja or similar) to have a go (at racing) in the next year or two (will make 4 bikes... sigh).

If your tracks are longer, maybe something like a 650 twin class or 400s would be similarly less expensive to race where you are. ditto for motards. they are easy on tyres and crash cheaply.

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post #22 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-25-2015, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
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Yup, litres eat tyres quick, especially if you ride them hard. If you're serious about track days or racing tyres are a big $ item.

Now you may laugh... but if you're seriously considering the $ side of things, have you considered racing something smaller? For casual racing locally where i am we have a production 250 based class. Our local tracks are quite short, and obviously the bikes are slow, but there are several benefits you may consider:

1 set of tyres will last most of a race season (vs. 1+ set per weekend for a 600 and upwards from there as you get more competitive or ride a 1000)
same for brake pads
its all about corner speed
if you bin it, who cares? they are dirt cheap to repair/replace
modifications are limited - it's low budget racing, you're not going to be competing with someone who's spent 10k on mods.

Am actually considering getting a production 250 (Ninja or similar) to have a go (at racing) in the next year or two (will make 4 bikes... sigh).

If your tracks are longer, maybe something like a 650 twin class or 400s would be similarly less expensive to race where you are. ditto for motards. they are easy on tyres and crash cheaply.
That's what I wanted to do before I had to face the reality of needing to sell my 600...

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post #23 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-25-2015, 12:33 PM
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My reasoning when I bought the R1M was... I spent so mech money on the aftermarket parts that it's enough to buy an RSV4.. but if I crash the 600rr, insurance will only cover it for the year and model of the bike and probably 2k worth of accessory (progressive ins).
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post #24 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-25-2015, 03:03 PM
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I have had both and now only have my 1k... Im a larger framed guy and even though the 600 is adequate, I just feel like the 1k is a better fit for me on the street. I think I wanna get another 600 for getting back on the track.
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post #25 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-26-2015, 11:13 AM
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My reasoning when I bought the R1M was... I spent so mech money on the aftermarket parts that it's enough to buy an RSV4.. but if I crash the 600rr, insurance will only cover it for the year and model of the bike and probably 2k worth of accessory (progressive ins).
Most insurers (here at least) do not cover track use.

Hence i track my 8 year old 600 with 100k KM on it....

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post #26 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-26-2015, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thro View Post
Yup, litres eat tyres quick, especially if you ride them hard. If you're serious about track days or racing tyres are a big $ item.

Now you may laugh... but if you're seriously considering the $ side of things, have you considered racing something smaller? For casual racing locally where i am we have a production 250 based class. Our local tracks are quite short, and obviously the bikes are slow, but there are several benefits you may consider:

1 set of tyres will last most of a race season (vs. 1+ set per weekend for a 600 and upwards from there as you get more competitive or ride a 1000)
same for brake pads
its all about corner speed
if you bin it, who cares? they are dirt cheap to repair/replace
modifications are limited - it's low budget racing, you're not going to be competing with someone who's spent 10k on mods.

Am actually considering getting a production 250 (Ninja or similar) to have a go (at racing) in the next year or two (will make 4 bikes... sigh).

If your tracks are longer, maybe something like a 650 twin class or 400s would be similarly less expensive to race where you are. ditto for motards. they are easy on tyres and crash cheaply.
Well said. If I wanted to go racing or dig deeper into the track life, I'd go for a beater - more especially a lower cc bike. That way I'm less restricted financially.

With this said, I'll stay boring and stick to daily riding my 600 on hand.

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post #27 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-30-2015, 01:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thro View Post
I have both in the garage, and a mate who races national aussie supersport (and did a race recently on a super bike).

I'd say keep the 600 - for track.

Why?


Several reasons:

Your tyre bill will be marginally cheaper (and i suspect this will outweigh any cost savings by "buying a 1000 to get the shiny bits")
To ride a 1000 hard is a lot more physically demanding than a 600 (mate was exhausted, he's a state champ on 600 (graduated last year to racing national level), after a couple of laps at race pace on 1000 was buggered)

YMMV, depends on the tracks you're racing, etc.... but yeah, don't under-estimate the jump to 1000 on track. It's not just a faster 600. The effort is just much more.


For street the 1000 is a much lazier bike. Effortless power. If you were asking whether or not to step to 1000 for street, i'd say yeah go for it no question.

Riding one hard on circuit though.... totally different situation. Depends how serious you are though I guess. As I said, the mate i mention above is racing at national level... but yeah, punting a 1000 around at pace is a lot more physical effort. Partially weight. Partialy because as above they are point and shoot. Harder acceleration. Harder braking. More sliding. Etc...

I kept my 600 when i upgraded to 1000 to use mostly for track. Now i've started doing so, i don't think i'd be much quicker on the 1000 really.

Ohlins and Brembos etc. aren't going to magically make you faster. Buy a rear shock for your 600, re-spring both ends for your weight, re-valve the forks, maybe get a quick shifter (mate won state championship without one) and maybe a slipper clutch and enjoy :D The stock brakes are good enough (again, state championship with them), just put appropriate pads in it.

2c.


edit:
and yeah, every time i hop back on my 600 i feel like i can abuse it so much more. you don't notice the weight quite so much stepping up (maybe too busy going gaga over the torque), but stepping back from 1000 -> 600 it is dramatic.
Good post mate.

I do agree on what you said. I've ridden an 09 R6, and compared to my R1, the R6 was way easier to ride in terms of agility. Of course its great to have more power, but that comes at a cost as mentioned. I've also ridden an 08 CBR1000RR and compared it to my previous 06RR back in the day. In any case, jumping down from a liter bike to a 600 feels very light, while moving up requires a little adjustment to the weight and power of the 1k.

you will have to make some small adjustments, but an upgrade to a 1k can be rewarding if you find the right bike and learn to ride it. For the street, a liter bike is pretty easy to ride. On the track you will have to learn how to control that extra power and weight.

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post #28 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-30-2015, 06:20 AM
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Just another comment... 07 600RR vs. 09 1000RR.... in some ways i feel more comfortable on the 600 ergo wise. in some ways the 1000 is more comfortable. its not much difference overall imho. if you fit one, you'll fit the other. If you don't fit one, the other isn't much different.

FWIW, i'm a little over 6'.



Oh and if you're looking at the RSV4 in particular thinking the 1000 is going to be a bigger more comfortable bike, guess again :D They're pretty tiny.

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post #29 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-02-2015, 09:47 AM Thread Starter
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Alright you guys convinced me to refocus on my 2009 RR for the track, possibly racing next season. There are a number of upgrades that I want to do:

- Reflashed ECU ($450)
- Full exhaust ($1,500)
- Racing air filter (?)
- Autotuner ($300)
- Slipper clutch ($1,000 installed)
- Rear/Front shock ($3,000 installed)
- Rotors (?)

Total ~$7,000 and up.

I already have brake lines, PCV, quick shifter, Brake company master. With an RSV4 you wouldn't need the suspensions upgrade, the slipper clutch, rotors I guess? But then again, you still have a stock-limited ECU and a stock exhaust/air filter.
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post #30 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-02-2015, 11:03 AM
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^ That's a lot going into a 600RR, but you're possibly going racing in it, so...

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