Definitive Answer to the Octane Question - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-19-2006, 08:24 PM Thread Starter
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Definitive Answer to the Octane Question

Okay. So after reading so many octane posts, I've decided to try to put an end to the mystery. What follows is a reproduction of an article printed in the July 2005 issue of BIKE magazine (a British publication). I feel that it sheds more than enough light on the octane debate. I've taken the liberty of highlighting the important bits. Don't be scared because it's an easy read even though it looks wordy.

Also, I need to preface the article with this:

RON rating is NOT the same number you see at the pump, which is the PON rating. The article refers to the octane rating of gas in RON, so you need to take into account that the number you see at the pump is gonna have a corresponding number that is lower.

RON = Research Octane Number (what the bike/manual says)
PON = Pump Octane Number (what you see at the pump)

90 RON = 86.6 PON
92 RON = 88.5 PON
95 RON = 91 PON
96 RON = 92 PON
98 RON = 94 PON

Please, spread the gospel.

============================

PETROL

After millions of years of heat and pressure, a pile of dead trees and plants buried deep in the earth gets broken down and transforms into crude oil. (ed. This is an entirely different discussion with many different views) Sooner or later, a fat Texan pumps it out of the ground, then refines and separates the stuff down to its constituent parts. And every hundred miles or so, you fill up your bike's tank with one of the liquids produced as a result.

The clear fluid we know as petrol (ed. That's what the Brit's refer to "gas" as.) is a combination of different hydrocarbons - compounds of hydrogen and carbon elements - ranging from seven to 11 carbon atoms in length. Mostly, it's octane (the hydrocarbon with eight carbon atoms). Petrol contains huge potential energy - a gallon contains the equivalent of 31 million calories (or, in food terms, 63 Big Macs).

But this energy needs to be released. That involves mixing the petrol with air and squirting it into an engine's combustion chamber to be ignited by the spark from the plug. The theoretically perfect mix of air:fuel is 14.7:1 (known as the 'stoichiometric ratio'). Under these conditions, the hydrocarbons burn completely. Hydrogen atoms join with oxygen atoms, creating H2O (water) and all the carbon bits turn into CO2 (carbon dioxide). In practice it never happens that perfectly, thanks to the presence of other contaminants in fuel and air, but that's the idea at least.

Before the spark plug sparks, this mix of air and fuel is compressed by the piston's compression stroke. Cars typically run a compression ratio of about 8:1 (squashing the gas into an eighth of its volume). Bikes run much higher ratios to generate more power: the relatively gentle Suzuki SV650 runs at 11.5:1 and the monster Kawasaki ZX-10R at 12.7:1.

The problem with high compression ratios is that heptane (one of the hydrocarbons found in petrol) doesn't react well when it's squashed. Its molecular bonds are weak, so compress it a little and it ignites spontaneously. The bonds in octane are far stronger, so it takes much more compression before it ignites. This is why tuned engines are run on high-octane petrol.


WHAT DO OCTANE RATINGS MEAN?

At the petrol pumps you're often faced with two types of unleaded - regular (95 RON) or super (with a higher value). RON stands for Research Octane Number, a measure of how resistant the fuel is to igniting under compression.

A fuel of 95 RON, such as regular unleaded, has the same resistance to compression as a mix of 95 per cent octane and 5 per cent heptane. Fuels of more than 100 RON are made by adding chemicals that are more resistant than octane. Shell Optimax claims a 98 RON rating; BP Ultimate Unleaded is 97 RON.

Octane alone won't increase power. It only allows the potential for an engine to run a high compression ratio - and that's what will increase power. Run a high-compression engine on low octane fuel and detonation occurs - and that can destroy a motor.


WHAT IS DETONATION?

Detonation - also known as knock - occurs after the spark plug has sparked. The spark starts a flame in the middle of the cylinder, which should spread out to the edges with a single flame front. But if gas at the edges of the cylinder ignites (due to high temperature or pressure) before the flame meets them, it causes multiple flame fronts in the cylinder. When these collide they create a sharp rise in heat and pressure. Occasional, slight detonation isn't a problem but constant, severe detonation will wreck an engine.

Some bikes, like BMW's extremely high compression K1200S (13:1) use a knock sensor. This detects frequencies in the cylinder and, if it registers those associated with knock, tells the engine management system. This then retards the ignition advance (how far ahead of the piston reaching Top Dead Centre the spark plug fires). Ignition advance is necessary because petrol takes time to burn, so igniting the mixture when the piston is already at the top of its travel is a waste of energy. As revs increase, the piston speeds up so more advance is needed. Retarding the amount of advance will reduce power but lowers temperature and pressure, reducing the conditions that cause knock.


HOW IS RACE FUEL DIFFERENT?

Contrary to popular belief, race fuel isn't super-high-octane juice. FIM regulations for MotoGP and Superbikes only allow fuels between 95 and 102 RON - not a world apart from the octane of petrol we buy at the high street pump. In fact, race teams want to use the lowest octane fuel they can get away with, as a side effect of high octane is slow combustion.

The big difference between race fuel and road petrol is that fuel companies work closely with race teams (such as Shell Advance with the Ducati GP team) to develop a bespoke (ed. That means custom-made, btw.) fuel for a specific bike's demands, which change from day to day. Pump unleaded has to work in a variety of vehicles and conditions. So nicking a drum of Desmosedici fuel for your road-legal 999 won't magically increase its power.


USE YOUR KNOWLEDGE (SIDEBAR)

So what should you fill up with? Simple. Assuming you haven't changed your compression ratio, run your bike on what the manual tells you to. In the case of most road bikes, that's standard 95 RON. Extra octane won't increase power - it really is just a waste of money. If the book asks you to run it on higher-octane fuel then stick to it rigidly, unless you have a knock sensor - like BMW's K1200S or new R1200 models. In this case, if you want to save a few quid and don't mind losing some bhp, you can use regular. You're safe to mix and match regular and super, too.


============================

So there you go.

The only difference between high-octane gasoline and normal-octane gasoline is their ability to withstand compression. If you put normal-octane gas in your engine, that's fine. If you put high-octane gas in your engine, that's fine as well. Because both will withstand the compression of the engine. At this point, it's a question of whether or not you want to waste your money.

However, putting normal-octane gas in a high-compression engine will cause knock as it detonates prematurely from being compressed beyond its limits. Only high-octane gas will stand up to the higher compression.

In summary, running a higher compression ratio is what gives more power. Higher octane gas by itself does not.

Ya herrrrd?

Last edited by Butters; 04-19-2006 at 08:43 PM.
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post #2 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-19-2006, 08:30 PM
 
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this should be a sticky!
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post #3 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-19-2006, 08:42 PM Thread Starter
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Yes, someone please make this a sticky! It shouldn't be lost under any of the other eventual octane questions.
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post #4 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-20-2006, 08:20 AM
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But the higher octane gas along with nitrogen in my tires and full synthetic oil will still improve my mileage, right?

Sorry - just kidding

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post #5 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-20-2006, 10:37 AM
 
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so then what are the break off points for high hi of compression ratio each kind of octain can with stand...as in can 87 octane work with 11:1 compression or is that to much....just curious
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post #6 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-20-2006, 12:58 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F4iTO600rr
so then what are the break off points for high hi of compression ratio each kind of octain can with stand...as in can 87 octane work with 11:1 compression or is that to much....just curious
That's a good question, perhaps one of the hardcore motorheads on here can answer that. Though the question for me would be how low of octane gas can I get away with using in my XX:X compression ratio engine. Faster burning and more cost-effective fuel....
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post #7 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-20-2006, 12:59 PM
 
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There are a lot of factors that go into using race gas, but just putting race fuel in won't do anything. You've gotta lean it out, bump the timing up, or give an increase boost. I've always put 93 in my bike, just because of force of habit. I've "heard" that it makes no difference, but I'd actually like to log the bike on the dyno using both 87 & 93, and see for myself. I guess that's just the tuner side of me coming out, lol. Either way, it really doesn't cost all that much more money to fill it with 93, so it never made a difference to me either way.
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post #8 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-20-2006, 01:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butters
That's a good question, perhaps one of the hardcore motorheads on here can answer that. Though the question for me would be how low of octane gas can I get away with using in my XX:X compression ratio engine. Faster burning and more cost-effective fuel....
Yea thats kinda what i was trying to say, im glad im not the only one wondering about that.
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post #9 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-20-2006, 01:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepingTalon
There are a lot of factors that go into using race gas, but just putting race fuel in won't do anything. You've gotta lean it out, bump the timing up, or give an increase boost. I've always put 93 in my bike, just because of force of habit. I've "heard" that it makes no difference, but I'd actually like to log the bike on the dyno using both 87 & 93, and see for myself. I guess that's just the tuner side of me coming out, lol. Either way, it really doesn't cost all that much more money to fill it with 93, so it never made a difference to me either way.

Putting VP MR9 ($100per 5 gal) race gas in your stock 600rr with out changing a damn thing is worth 3%-6% more hp. Now mapping, timing advance and things like that will give you the full percentage.
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post #10 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-20-2006, 01:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butters
That's a good question, perhaps one of the hardcore motorheads on here can answer that. Though the question for me would be how low of octane gas can I get away with using in my XX:X compression ratio engine. Faster burning and more cost-effective fuel....
This would depend on how much timing advance you have, and the target A/F. I've had car's I've tuned make BIG power on pump gas, but the timing map isn't aggressive, and I target a safe A/F. I'm actually curious to see what the stock ecu on the RR sees...does anyone have the parameters for the stock map? Like the factory map, with both axis's, which I assume are TPS and MAP pressure. If it's an EPROM, I can probably find out, I'm kinda curious now...
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post #11 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-20-2006, 01:19 PM
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post #12 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-20-2006, 01:26 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Whoa, that entry is a little layman-unfriendly. But good link nonetheless for those who have the gray-matter capacity to take all that chemistry in....
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post #13 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-20-2006, 01:28 PM
 
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Amen "Butters!"

Whatever the science, I still ain't fillin' my car up with gas at $3.07/gal.
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post #14 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-20-2006, 01:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twisty
Putting VP MR9 ($100per 5 gal) race gas in your stock 600rr with out changing a damn thing is worth 3%-6% more hp. Now mapping, timing advance and things like that will give you the full percentage.
Maybe you're not changing a damn thing, but if that's the case, then I would assume there are a few possiblities...1- The race fuel itself is leaning out the A/F, or 2- There's an "extended" map in the stock ecu that you can't get to without having a very high grade fuel. I'm things that 1 is the more likely, but I'd still really be interested in seeing the factory map if anyone knows where to find it. I thought that someone might have hacked the ecu by now, since the bike is a few years old.
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post #15 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-20-2006, 01:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepingTalon
Maybe you're not changing a damn thing, but if that's the case, then I would assume there are a few possiblities...1- The race fuel itself is leaning out the A/F, or 2- There's an "extended" map in the stock ecu that you can't get to without having a very high grade fuel. I'm things that 1 is the more likely, but I'd still really be interested in seeing the factory map if anyone knows where to find it. I thought that someone might have hacked the ecu by now, since the bike is a few years old.

Now this also veries on the type of race fuel your using. Are you using a unleaded oxgenated, leaded oxgenated, Lead highoctane. Gas like Turbo Blue and Uncal 110 are garabage and will burn your rings out of you 600rr. Now U4,U4e, MR8, MR9, Are made to increase HP in bikes with low compression. Mapping will get the full advantage this.

Are looking fore the actural digital map? I have it powercomander form. All bikes that I run on the dyno start with the "Factory" map. It is the map the ECU is using programmed from the factory.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twisty
Now this also veries on the type of race fuel your using. Are you using a unleaded oxgenated, leaded oxgenated, Lead highoctane. Gas like Turbo Blue and Uncal 110 are garabage and will burn your rings out of you 600rr. Now U4,U4e, MR8, MR9, Are made to increase HP in bikes with low compression. Mapping will get the full advantage this.

Are looking fore the actural digital map? I have it powercomander form. All bikes that I run on the dyno start with the "Factory" map. It is the map the ECU is using programmed from the factory.
I almost always use leaded fuel due to the nature of the things I tune. With the cars mostly being FI, like high hp supras, dsms, evos, more recently, vipers, it's just what they require. I can also get away with meth injection, but it's always one of the two if I wanna make astronomical numbers, especially with very sensitive knock sensors. The map I want is the factory map. If the stock ecu has an EPROM, it can be pulled off the chip. If not, then propietary software is needed. I just wanna see what the kind of parameters the stock ecu is looking for after the bike is warmed up, and the different load points vs MAP.
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post #17 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-20-2006, 02:00 PM
 
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You guys also realize that when these bikes went into production, they were not destined for racers and track junkies only. Honda designed the engines to run on the minimum octane rating available to the average consumer. Therefore, the bikes will run perfectly fine on any octane rating you choose to put in your tank. If you do have a Power Commander, and choose to alter the stock fuel mapping of your bike, then you need to pay attention to the grade of fuel you use. For the stock rider, put in whatever your wallet allows. Thanks Butters for the post.
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post #18 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-20-2006, 02:20 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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. . . For the stock rider, put in whatever your wallet allows. Thanks Butters for the post.
No problem, I hope that this will help some people. I'm gonna continue running the regular unleaded in my bike.
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post #19 of 138 (permalink) Old 06-16-2006, 03:55 AM
 
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hate to dig up an old post... but im not gunna stop putting 93 in my tank because it doesnt add more horse power... if i fill up with 93... its a dollar more than if i filled it with 87... I get more milage off of 93 than 87 also... ill get about 30-35 miles more than my friends who use 87... ill have 2-3 bars while their gas light is on. so id say that extra dollar is worth the extra mileage
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post #20 of 138 (permalink) Old 06-16-2006, 11:09 AM
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but does your friend drive exactly like yourself? that could also cause a difference in mileage.

i use 91 because i've always used it on my high compression cars. what is the compression ratio on our bikes anyways? if it's not that high, then i can understand why people use 87. i just never really researched this topic. but i guess if i did i could save myself some gas :P
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post #21 of 138 (permalink) Old 06-16-2006, 12:54 PM Thread Starter
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Whatever the compression ratio of our bikes, it does not need high octane gas. People need to stop equating low octane numbers with "slow". Your mileage is no way to gauge what octane gas to use, there are so many different factors that go into gas mileage, while the only thing that goes into determining what octane you use is engine compression ratio.
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post #22 of 138 (permalink) Old 06-16-2006, 03:56 PM
 
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2006 Cbr 600rr has a 12.0:1 compression which is actually high in the scheme of things. Almost all inline 4-cyl. bikes are "high compression". Consider that most vehicles are around 9.5:1 to 11.5:1. Remember just because you dont hear a knock inside the motor doesnt mean that you dont have pre-detonation happening. Some bikes will run on 87 and some wont, but i run no less than 91 pump octane in any bike. Dont use octane boosters they are BS, and when they say they add 2 points that doesnt mean it goes from 91 pump to 93, it goes 91 pump to 91.2 pump. As for race gas depends on which one you are using my drag bike on get VP U4, but you need to know what you are doing when you are using race fuel, you could actually be losing power or doing damage.
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post #23 of 138 (permalink) Old 06-16-2006, 04:17 PM
 
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Use what the manufacturer recommends....any more than that you are wasting your money. (Unless you tune your bike to a specific fuel)
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post #24 of 138 (permalink) Old 06-17-2006, 01:20 AM
 
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87 or 91.... ?
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post #25 of 138 (permalink) Old 06-17-2006, 11:44 PM
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87.....or 86 in the rocky mountains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toobs
87 or 91.... ?
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post #26 of 138 (permalink) Old 06-18-2006, 01:16 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yipperzz
but does your friend drive exactly like yourself? that could also cause a difference in mileage.
We keep up with eachother if thats what your asking... But unless I stayed in 1st while he was in 4th the whole time... then there wouldnt be 2 much of a difference.
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post #27 of 138 (permalink) Old 06-18-2006, 06:24 AM
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Different countries using different octane ratings at the pump. 95 is lowest in uk but that is RON. USA seems to be 86/87 but i believe you use MON.

The cbr600rr motors will run at 15:1 on regular pump gas with no detonation. I know this because i've tried it! Anything over around 13.5:1 is a waste of time for power on these motors.

The reason the bikes will run such a high compression ratio compared to cars is partly piston diameter and partly due to the vastly superior combustion chamber shape.

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post #28 of 138 (permalink) Old 06-18-2006, 03:42 PM
 
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I use 93 octane, premium fuel, I just put the best gas because I want to. I don't mind the extra 18 cents a gallon. Just like 600RidgeRunner said, put what your wallet allows, if you're good on money then put in the better gas. $hit I don't care what you do, just my 2cents on this topic!
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post #29 of 138 (permalink) Old 06-19-2006, 12:35 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasRR
I use 93 octane, premium fuel, I just put the best gas because I want to. I don't mind the extra 18 cents a gallon. Just like 600RidgeRunner said, put what your wallet allows, if you're good on money then put in the better gas. $hit I don't care what you do, just my 2cents on this topic!
Using the term "better gas" isn't necessarily correct, TexasRR. It's just a marketing tool the oil tycoons suck you in with. It costs them extra to make it, but it doesn't make it a "better" fuel, per se. Just made to be used inside high compression motors.

How much simpler must one state this?
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post #30 of 138 (permalink) Old 06-19-2006, 12:54 AM
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if you want "better" gas then fuel up using gasoline from specialty fuel companies like VP, they have 87/89 MON unleaded gasoline, they are cleaner & purer than your "best" commercially available pump gasoline but you pay more $ per gallon.


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