aftermarket header vs. OEM - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-03-2015, 09:00 PM Thread Starter
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aftermarket header vs. OEM

Im debating on buying an arrow universal header for my 2008 cbr600. im pretty sure they will with most aftermarket slip ons, but i was curious to know...is the only difference between an aftermarket and an OEM header, that there is no Cat? if not, i might as well keep my oem header and just cut the cat out. unless there are actual gains to be made with an aftermarket one. thanks in advance
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post #2 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-03-2015, 10:06 PM
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good aftermarket exh headers will be larger dia. (better flow).

will look better (stainless steel)

and aftermarket is lighter.

If you are going for looks at a budget price.....IDK, cannot really advise.

no experience in that.
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post #3 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-03-2015, 11:42 PM
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i just ordered arrow, but if i was in the states and could benifit from the $75 rebate i would have actually considered this..
http://shop.mjsperformance.com/category.sc?categoryId=4
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post #4 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-03-2015, 11:59 PM
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post #5 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-04-2015, 01:17 AM
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aftermarket header vs. OEM

I cut out the cat and retained the stock headers. My bike is making as much power as those with aftermarket headers (more power in many cases actually) with an equally smooth power/torque curve.

You can compare my figures with those using aftermarket headers in the dyno results thread here https://www.600rr.net/vb/showthread.php?t=104896

Details of the cat replacement pipe can be found in this thread https://www.600rr.net/vb/showthread.php?t=476466

Or check out my build thread.

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post #6 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-04-2015, 03:18 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by EaZ8 View Post
i just ordered arrow, but if i was in the states and could benifit from the $75 rebate i would have actually considered this..
http://shop.mjsperformance.com/category.sc?categoryId=4
What a steal. I actually might pick this up.
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post #7 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-04-2015, 03:19 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dkid View Post
I cut out the cat and retained the stock headers. My bike is making as much power as those with aftermarket headers (more power in many cases actually) with an equally smooth power/torque curve.

You can compare my figures with those using aftermarket headers in the dyno results thread here https://www.600rr.net/vb/showthread.php?t=104896

Details of the cat replacement pipe can be found in this thread https://www.600rr.net/vb/showthread.php?t=476466

Or check out my build thread.
There was a lot to look through. What were the numbers?
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post #8 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-04-2015, 03:23 AM
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aftermarket header vs. OEM

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Originally Posted by jawsolsen333 View Post
There was a lot to look through. What were the numbers?

115 HP at the rear wheel, 45 ft-lbs torque.



The numbers on their own are good but the important thing is how they compare with the numbers of bikes with afternarket headers. Different dyno's will always give slightly different results but they are a pretty accurate indicator of how bikes compare depending on their mods.

IMO It's worth an hour of your time to research the topic thoroughly and read through the threads I linked and anything else you can find.

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post #9 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-04-2015, 03:39 AM
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aftermarket header vs. OEM

Best comparison I can provide as an example is in my build thread. It shows results of two RR's (mine '08, another '10) which were dyno'd on the same dyno machine by the same technician.

The '10 has a full titanium system inc aftermarket headers and mine has stock headers.

Starts at post #412 https://www.600rr.net/vb/showthread.php?t=461386

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post #10 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-04-2015, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by dkid View Post
Best comparison I can provide as an example is in my build thread. It shows results of two RR's (mine '08, another '10) which were dyno'd on the same dyno machine by the same technician.

The '10 has a full titanium system inc aftermarket headers and mine has stock headers.

Starts at post #412 https://www.600rr.net/vb/showthread.php?t=461386
so yours is a 2008 with a slip on cat delete and intake.
the other is a 2010 with full aftermarket exhaust (what brand?) intake?

do either have block off plates?
are both running the PCV?
and does the 2010 have a 2007/08 ecu or a ignition retard controller? (z-bomb or dynojet)

if not, its not really a good comparison, the 07/08 produces more power stock on stock.
honestly headers will only do so much, the cat delete will be fin for most people, i only bought arrow because it would cost me over 200 jst for a cat delete i figured what the hell spend the extra $ and just do it right.
also, i can put my stock exhaust back on and sell the arrow and akra if i ever decide to sell the bike.
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post #11 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-04-2015, 10:43 PM
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well dkids the only one ive seen with a dyno graph and hes making more power than most with aftermarket headers in my opinion. Its also a cheaper option than arrow or other brands. Im sure honda has more money and people to throw at R&D than arrow or yoshi. The honest truth is theres no way to tell for sure. Every bike any dyno are slightly different and this all adds up to a couple horsepower.

Doesnt honda make the headers for the motogp bike? Maybe they know a little something that these other company's don't and that could/can help them in developing the headers for there line of street bike's Right!

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post #12 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-04-2015, 10:45 PM
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A bigger diamater is not always better either for exhaust you can certainly go to big

2007 Cbr600rr Black

[SIZE=1]Tripage IT and Plate Bracket, TST Turn Signals, GB Case Covers, Captive Rear Spacers, Driven 520 -1 +2 steel sprocket kit, Spiegler Steel Brake Lines, Front Fork Revalve, Stomp Grips, Speedodrd, Dunlop Q3's, HRC Rear Brake Res, Woocraft Frame sliders, Shorty levers, 90 Degree Valve Stems, EK 520 Black/Gold Chain, Tekarbon Chain Guard, Engine Swap, Brembo RCS, Evotech Front Brake Res, SBS Sintered Race pads, Healtech Quick Shifter, Vortex Rearsets, and Trackdays!
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post #13 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-04-2015, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by mran556 View Post

Doesnt honda make the headers for the motogp bike? Maybe they know a little something that these other company's don't and that could/can help them in developing the headers for there line of street bike's Right!
nope....
Arrow does.

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2012/...lite-team-lcr/
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post #14 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-04-2015, 11:36 PM
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Is that the entire system or? I see it says arrow but they give well no info. Just because they made it doesnt mean honda didnt designed it. Then to have arrow produce it to there specs. After all lot of lots of company's do that.

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post #15 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-05-2015, 01:04 AM
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aftermarket header vs. OEM

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Originally Posted by EaZ8 View Post
so yours is a 2008 with a slip on cat delete and intake.

the other is a 2010 with full aftermarket exhaust (what brand?) intake?



do either have block off plates?

are both running the PCV?

and does the 2010 have a 2007/08 ecu or a ignition retard controller? (z-bomb or dynojet)



if not, its not really a good comparison, the 07/08 produces more power stock on stock.

honestly headers will only do so much, the cat delete will be fin for most people, i only bought arrow because it would cost me over 200 jst for a cat delete i figured what the hell spend the extra $ and just do it right.

also, i can put my stock exhaust back on and sell the arrow and akra if i ever decide to sell the bike.
All the answers to your questions are in the links provided. From my build thread it would have been easy to click on the link to the build thread of the '10. Also, both bikes specs are listed in the dyno thread I linked above too. Last couple posts before the end.

However....Both bikes running a PCV, the '10 has a full titanium Leo Vince system & block off plates.UK (EU & AUS too) '09+ bikes weren't affected like the US ones so no ecu swap or Z-bomb needed iirc. It's a pretty darn good comparison imo.

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i figured what the hell spend the extra $ and just do it right.
What makes one way 'right' and another wrong? Don't feel like you have to defend your choice to buy Arrow headers, they're a great purchase and no one is trying to say otherwise, just that there are options available.

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post #16 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-05-2015, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EaZ8 View Post
so yours is a 2008 with a slip on cat delete and intake.

the other is a 2010 with full aftermarket exhaust (what brand?) intake?



do either have block off plates?

are both running the PCV?

and does the 2010 have a 2007/08 ecu or a ignition retard controller? (z-bomb or dynojet)

The 2010 is mine, full Leo Vince titanium system with K&N filter, and PAIR delete. I'm using the ECU it came with and have a full custom map using a PCV.

The full system I have made a massive difference to performance, but Dkid managed to get very similar results using the cat replacement pipe. For most people a full system isn't necessary, although the reduction in weight is always going to be a slight advantage with regards to real on the road performance.



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post #17 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-05-2015, 10:27 PM
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The 2010 is mine, full Leo Vince titanium system with K&N filter, and PAIR delete. I'm using the ECU it came with and have a full custom map using a PCV.

The full system I have made a massive difference to performance, but Dkid managed to get very similar results using the cat replacement pipe. For most people a full system isn't necessary, although the reduction in weight is always going to be a slight advantage with regards to real on the road performance.



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im sure you got some good gains, but the 09+ has a disadvantage right off the bat (i have a 09)
right off the bazzaz site:
"Honda limited the power on the 2009-2011 model US spec CBR600RR, so that the peak power
is approximately 3 to 5 HP lower than the unlimited version of the ECU, and so that the power
peak occurs approximately 1500 RPM earlier. This was done via modified ignition timing values
in the stock maps of the US spec ECU.
Designed specifically for the US model 2009-2011 CBR600RR, the Z-BOMB allows US spec
bikes to get the full power as designed by Honda. At low and part throttle, the Z-Bomb does not
affect the ECU.
When the Z-BOMB is installed the bike will lean out slightly. For the best tune possible, we
recommend installing a Z-Fi unit as well"

http://www.bazzaz.net/instructions/O340i.pdf
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post #18 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-06-2015, 01:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EaZ8 View Post

right off the bazzaz site:

"Honda limited the power on the 2009-2011 model US spec CBR600RR, so that the peak power

is approximately 3 to 5 HP lower than the unlimited version of the ECU, and so that the power

peak occurs approximately 1500 RPM earlier. This was done via modified ignition timing values

in the stock maps of the US spec ECU.

Designed specifically for the US model 2009-2011 CBR600RR, the Z-BOMB allows US spec

bikes to get the full power as designed by Honda.

What you've quoted is only applicable to U.S '09+ models. It says so several times. You've clearly missed the point I made earlier about these two bikes being UK models. The UK '09+ models are not subject to the same power restriction as the U.S. '09+ models. Therefore the example I have given is a fair one.

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post #19 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-06-2015, 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Buckley.S View Post
The 2010 is mine, full Leo Vince titanium system with K&N filter, and PAIR delete. I'm using the ECU it came with and have a full custom map using a PCV.

The full system I have made a massive difference to performance, but Dkid managed to get very similar results using the cat replacement pipe. For most people a full system isn't necessary, although the reduction in weight is always going to be a slight advantage with regards to real on the road performance.



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Thanks Steve, I was trying to use hard data rather than hearsay/opinion to give a comparison and our two bikes are the best example I am aware of to illustrate the point.

At least with proper results people can see and form their own conclusions. I see so many threads with titles like "which exhaust for my bike?" With a long list of replies where people just recommend the part they have on their own bike without saying why it's better than another part or why they chose it and what it has done for their bike.

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What you've quoted is only applicable to U.S '09+ models. It says so several times. You've clearly missed the point I made earlier about these two bikes being UK models. The UK '09+ models are not subject to the same power restriction as the U.S. '09+ models. Therefore the example I have given is a fair one.
im under the impression that the 09+ EU spec bikes have even more restrictions?
dont they have a 02 sensor in the cat?
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post #21 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-06-2015, 12:40 PM
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That header linked to on here looks like a stocker with the cat delete pipe added to it. Makes even more sence when they want your stock header as a core. Means buying the complete header will do nothing for performance that the cat pipe won't do for 1/3rd the price.

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post #22 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-06-2015, 12:44 PM
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That header linked to on here looks like a stocker with the cat delete pipe added to it. Makes even more sence when they want your stock header as a core. Means buying the complete header will do nothing for performance that the cat pipe won't do for 1/3rd the price.
thats just the one from the company that makes the cat delete, but ya, they take your old header and straightpipe it then ceramic coat it.
simple job if you have a pipe bender and a welder.
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post #23 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-07-2015, 09:19 AM Thread Starter
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I'm still stuck between the 2. The cat delete route and the aftermarket route to me, seems like they will both have similar gains. I guess for me personally, I feel like the only difference is going to be the weight savings on the aftermarket, which I'm not sure if that's worth the extra money for the arrow. I'm all for shaving off wait as much as possible but also not spending my money on things that aren't needed. Ughhhh
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I'm still stuck between the 2. The cat delete route and the aftermarket route to me, seems like they will both have similar gains. I guess for me personally, I feel like the only difference is going to be the weight savings on the aftermarket, which I'm not sure if that's worth the extra money for the arrow. I'm all for shaving off wait as much as possible but also not spending my money on things that aren't needed. Ughhhh

You won't go far wrong with either option bud. It's all about personal preference and budget really. Go with what ticks the right boxes for you.

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I'm still stuck between the 2. The cat delete route and the aftermarket route to me, seems like they will both have similar gains. I guess for me personally, I feel like the only difference is going to be the weight savings on the aftermarket, which I'm not sure if that's worth the extra money for the arrow. I'm all for shaving off wait as much as possible but also not spending my money on things that aren't needed. Ughhhh

For me it's down to what else you plan on doing. If the maximum engine tuning you're going to do is the exhaust, an air filter and PCV (or equivalent) then the stock headers are perfectly fine. If you plan to do any head work like porting, or cams, race air intake etc then I suspect that the larger diameter of the aftermarket headers will come into their own.

My feeling is this: rather than thinking about whether aftermarket headers are 'worth it', think about what they're designed for. The standard headers work very well with a standard engine, but a race system is designed to work with a tuned and prepped engine. For our largely standard engines either will work just as well as they both get the most from the engine as it sits, but start to upgrade engine internals and the advantage of race systems will become more apparent.




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i dont think the headers are worth it to be honest. i just wanted the arrow, if i got the cat delete cheap option it would them
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post #27 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-07-2015, 11:59 PM
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Aftermarket headers.... Yikes. I would stick with oem. Unless some rock actually impaled my header (unlikely ever) then I would out weight my options and lean towards an aftermarket one. But the money and gains are just not worth it if your on street. Meh.... Up to you brother!
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For me it's down to what else you plan on doing. If the maximum engine tuning you're going to do is the exhaust, an air filter and PCV (or equivalent) then the stock headers are perfectly fine. If you plan to do any head work like porting, or cams, race air intake etc then I suspect that the larger diameter of the aftermarket headers will come into their own.

My feeling is this: rather than thinking about whether aftermarket headers are 'worth it', think about what they're designed for. The standard headers work very well with a standard engine, but a race system is designed to work with a tuned and prepped engine. For our largely standard engines either will work just as well as they both get the most from the engine as it sits, but start to upgrade engine internals and the advantage of race systems will become more apparent.




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Yea, im just gonna keep the filter stock, from what i gathered, the oem filter does as much as the aftermarket ones. but if i went with one, it would be a bmc street filter. and as for the mods, im going to go with a bazzaz over the pc5.
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Here is my experience with both an Akrapovič Slip-On and an Akrapovič Racing Full Exhaust System which may be of interest to some.

https://www.600rr.net/vb/showpost.php...&postcount=860
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post #30 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-08-2015, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Ry6rr View Post
Here is my experience with both an Akrapovič Slip-On and an Akrapovič Racing Full Exhaust System which may be of interest to some.

https://www.600rr.net/vb/showpost.php...&postcount=860

Awesome post man very interesting read. For my personal need I would retain the stock cat. 110 hp is more than enough for me. Did you have a base dyno done? Id love to see it if so.

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