Quickshifter for downshifting - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-16-2015, 12:46 PM Thread Starter
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Quickshifter for downshifting

I'm interested in a quickshifter for down-shifting. Sometimes at the end of the straight I can't make it to 3rd and that screws up my corner. The clutch feels heavy when going down three gears quickly and I can't rev up perfectly all the time if I want to delay breaking to pass a bike.

Does the HM quickshifter work for down-shifting?
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post #2 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-16-2015, 02:35 PM
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Even if it does it will be insainly violent... you need an auto blipper and ive never seen one for the cbr

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post #3 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-16-2015, 07:00 PM
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Slipper clutch might be helpful in your case.

You can then just bang down the gear and don't worry about blipping the throttle.

Another way is to go down 2 really quickly and the 4th to 3rd just before the corner.
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post #4 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-16-2015, 07:11 PM
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post #5 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-17-2015, 08:02 AM
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You don't need hardware, you need skill and practice.
Come on, TheX, you're thinking crazy sh*t....


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post #6 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-17-2015, 11:33 AM
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Can you elaborate further? As I'm reading your post you are saying it's difficult to pull the clutch in, snick the lever down 3 times, quick blip and release the clutch; what does "the clutch feels heavy" mean, the lever is hard to pull or is there a mechanical thing going in?

If you want to skip the rev match (blip) get a slipper clutch, not a quick shifter.

Sounds like X is right, you need skill and practice.
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post #7 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-17-2015, 01:17 PM Thread Starter
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ok, I am on the start/finish straight and there are a couple of bikes I want to pass. The straight is the safer place to pass, I can keep at distance and I know slower bikes break earlier than I do. So I delay my downshift+breaking to pull 6th gear some more, but of course I have to downshift faster than usual at some point. Breaking is not a major problem, but the fast downshift sometimes leaves me in 4th, because I don't have all the time to blip the clutch while maintaining strong break pressure.

I said the "clutch feels heavy", but what I really meant is that the gearbox feels clunky and there is lots of metal opposing resistance between shift. I have the feeling that the transmission can get stuck between two gears. In the end I'm left in 4th. Perhaps I'm not pulling the clutch completely or not sequencing all the operations correctly at that speed, fine, I'm wondering if there is a way to not be bothered by that. I'd rather spend my focus on breaks, entry speed, reference points, line and the other bikes.

Slipper clutch, I get it, it helps with the high revs. But what about a downshift assist?

Last edited by Spaghetti; 04-17-2015 at 01:25 PM.
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post #8 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-17-2015, 03:15 PM
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Loading the transmission is a natural outcome of cassette style transmissions - you *must* unload the plates by releasing the clutch, usually after any two skipped gears. If I try three it starts to get 'crunchy'. There is no way around this; it's a mechanical limitation.

Rev matching is super cool. I do it.

Changing your gearing to be more track friendly can sometimes reduce your overall number of shifts, by making every gear shorter. You may find you can go from 6 to 4 instead of 3, for instance.
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post #9 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-17-2015, 04:48 PM
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meh.. I had to brake and downshift from 6th to 2nd at the end of the backstraight.

you don't have to release the clutch on each shift down.

Here's how I would do it.
Brake............ Leave the clutch alone.

Then as you come close to the corner pull clutch in, bang bang bang down 3 gears while keeping clutch in.
Blip
Release
Turn

Don't do clutch, bang, release, clutch , bang, release .. waste of time.

The bike should be able to change really quickly, if not. check your oil.

4 gears down at the end of the straight in the video below
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post #10 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-18-2015, 08:05 AM Thread Starter
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Do I hear the RPMs quickly reving three times at the end of the straight? Is that the slipper clutch? It's also visible from the superimposed rpm indicator, it moves back and forth at least a couple of times at the end of the straight.
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post #11 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-18-2015, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FightingChance View Post
Loading the transmission is a natural outcome of cassette style transmissions - you *must* unload the plates by releasing the clutch, usually after any two skipped gears. If I try three it starts to get 'crunchy'. There is no way around this; it's a mechanical limitation
I'm curious what you mean by this...
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post #12 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-18-2015, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Spaghetti View Post
Do I hear the RPMs quickly reving three times at the end of the straight? Is that the slipper clutch? It's also visible from the superimposed rpm indicator, it moves back and forth at least a couple of times at the end of the straight.
Nope, no slipper clutch there.

Just very aggressive blipping :)

I got used to blipping each time the gear lever is pushed down (shifting down) even though I'm not releasing the clutch.. Old habit but works really well once it has become second nature. It doesn't affect the braking at all.

Never had issue with locking the rear either.
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post #13 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-19-2015, 09:00 AM
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as someone who's always racing against 1000/1200 bikes on the track the only way i gain or pass them is under the brakes & corner entry, for that to happen i really have to brake later & harder then bang down 3 gears in rapid succession without blipping the throttle, thank the engineers for the slipper clutch, what an amazing piece of equipment, keeps me focused on braking rather than blipping the throttle with timed downshifts.

do yourself a favor & get a slipper clutch.


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post #14 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-29-2015, 12:50 PM Thread Starter
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So I tried the 3 gears "blind" downshift, without releasing the clutch, and sure enough it got me a couple of times: once I ended up in 2nd gear and the rear started skidding (no slipper clutch), another time I was left in 4th.

Overall I didn't like it, of course it's not meant to be comfortable, but when I weigh-in the risk I don't understand why there isn't more availability of downshift assists. The new BMW1000RR and I believe R1 have it.
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post #15 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-29-2015, 01:20 PM
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Liter bikes cost like, 3 to 6 grand more.
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post #16 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-29-2015, 02:20 PM
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It's a technique that must be learned, it's not something that is going to work right away. Practice and seat time are your friend here.
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post #17 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-30-2015, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaghetti View Post
So I tried the 3 gears "blind" downshift, without releasing the clutch, and sure enough it got me a couple of times: once I ended up in 2nd gear and the rear started skidding (no slipper clutch), another time I was left in 4th.

Overall I didn't like it, of course it's not meant to be comfortable, but when I weigh-in the risk I don't understand why there isn't more availability of downshift assists. The new BMW1000RR and I believe R1 have it.
Like last time can you elaborate a little more, what you mean by "blind" downshift? If you're in 6th, pull in the clutch, press the shift lever 3 times you should end up in 3rd. If you're not landing in third you have a mechanical issue or you're not doing it right and it'll take practice, like Rinonz mentioned try blipping quickly as you switch each gear but don't release the clutch lever each time.

I'm not seeing how anything external can make it any faster, easier, or more precise than your actions.

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It's a technique that must be learned, it's not something that is going to work right away. Practice and seat time are your friend here.
+1, keep trying, it'll come.

Mike
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post #18 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-30-2015, 05:24 PM
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Give it a couple of years; this will start trickling down to sport bike
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post #19 of 40 (permalink) Old 05-01-2015, 12:49 PM Thread Starter
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By "blind" downshifting I mean hitting the shift lever a number of times without releasing the clutch and not really knowing whether the gear went in. Compare with releasing the clutch each time and insuring the gear engaged the transmission and not hitting a false neutral.

I'm sure I have to practice more, but if this was such a novice problem, how come all sportbike and the most recent liter models come equipped with a downshift assist? I have already many things to focus on at the end of the straight (breaks, line, other bikes, reference marks...), downshifting is the first thing I'd gladly leave to technology.

At any rate, my question was whether there is something available for cbr600, not how to work around the problem. I guess the answer is no at this point.

Last edited by Spaghetti; 05-01-2015 at 12:54 PM.
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post #20 of 40 (permalink) Old 05-01-2015, 03:09 PM
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Well, yeah, it's called a slipper clutch.

What bike has 'downshift assist'? I know the Nissan 370z has auto rev matching... that's the only thing I can think of that is what you're talking about.

I find I can go two gears between easing the clutch out to get the clutch pack spaced out right, three if I rev match successfully.
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post #21 of 40 (permalink) Old 05-01-2015, 03:48 PM Thread Starter
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post #22 of 40 (permalink) Old 05-01-2015, 05:07 PM
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Well, when you're paying MotoGP prices, you get MotoGP assists.

Think of it this way, learning to do this well the manual way is a big accomplishment.
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post #23 of 40 (permalink) Old 05-07-2015, 02:42 PM
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It sounds like you're not setting up correctly for the corner, so you feel rushed at the end of the straight. Despite the speeds, things generally happen slowly and deliberately (smoothly!) on a race track. This is probably an issue with your technique, not your equipment. Get your downshifts done quickly when you first start roll off the throttle, then you can make sure that you are focused on your braking and corner entry.

Also, make sure that your body position is set before you start braking. Move your lower body off the seat and grip the tank with your legs under braking, then as you tip it in, point your inner toe into the corner, look, and your upper body and leg will naturally drop into the corner as you tip it in.

Setting up before the corner and getting your downshifts done early will make it feel like you have more time on corner entry and will make it much easier to be smooth. A slipper clutch definitely helps with all of this, but it is not necessary to go fast, nor is an auto-blipper necessary.

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post #24 of 40 (permalink) Old 05-10-2015, 09:57 AM Thread Starter
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Get your downshifts done quickly when you first start roll off the throttle, then you can make sure that you are focused on your braking and corner entry.
ok, let me details the sequence of operations, because I don't see how you can downshift right off the gas:

0. Sitting on the left/right side of the bike (pressure on side of the fork/chassis relative to the next turn), upper body still hiding behind the windscreen. Evaluate straight line relative to other bikes and overtaking (choose draft, overtaking point, etc.).
1. Reached the breaking reference point, body upright, cut gas, front break progressively to engage front suspension. Takes me around 1/2 second at the end of the straight.
2. Maximum breaking pressure, can feel rear tire losing just a little bit of traction signaling I reached maximum breaking power (as much as my tires/chassis can handle).

Now here's where it gets tricky...

3. Still above 80% breaking power almost at the end of the straight, need to focus on other bikes, overtaking line, apex. *Downshift and blip while still dealing with break lever*
4. Quick lean, engage line, throttle to stabilize bike
5. Focus on exit reference marks, acceleration, traction allowance.

So step 3 is when it gets real crowded and I have some problems with focus/timing. I don't see how can I downshift at step 1, as you seem to suggest?

Last edited by Spaghetti; 05-10-2015 at 10:14 AM.
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post #25 of 40 (permalink) Old 05-10-2015, 10:04 AM
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If riding bikes was easy it wouldn't be so much fun to get right.

Practice... slipper clutch may help if you're serious at track stuff...

Personally i like getting the blipping right and still do it on my blade with the slipper.

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post #26 of 40 (permalink) Old 05-10-2015, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FightingChance View Post
Loading the transmission is a natural outcome of cassette style transmissions - you *must* unload the plates by releasing the clutch, usually after any two skipped gears. If I try three it starts to get 'crunchy'. There is no way around this; it's a mechanical limitation.

Rev matching is super cool. I do it.

Changing your gearing to be more track friendly can sometimes reduce your overall number of shifts, by making every gear shorter. You may find you can go from 6 to 4 instead of 3, for instance.
I'm still waiting for you to explain this.


Coasting along at around 30mph with the clutch pulled to the bar I can seemlessly kick from 6th down to first then back to 6th and down to first again as many times as I want.

Because the output shaft is turning there is no issue with dog alignments and no reason at all for this simple task to be impossible.


I'd like to hear about this mechanical limitation.



also, some people struggle with multiple downshifts because they don't let the shifter ratchet back to its resting position before trying another. To complete each shift the lever must be returned to its resting position before you can shift again. This could be the issue for the OP
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post #27 of 40 (permalink) Old 05-10-2015, 06:35 PM
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When I skip lots of gears (>2) often my shift lever will either give a lot more resistance, or give almost no resistance and be really vague unless I let out the clutch just a little to get things spinning again; I thought this behavior was common/expected but maybe it's my bike or riding method?
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post #28 of 40 (permalink) Old 05-10-2015, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FightingChance View Post
When I skip lots of gears (>2) often my shift lever will either give a lot more resistance, or give almost no resistance and be really vague unless I let out the clutch just a little to get things spinning again; I thought this behavior was common/expected but maybe it's my bike or riding method?
You probably aren't letting the ratcheting mechanism catch the next pin on the shift star. The gears on the input shaft are able to freewheel and are locked in by the dogs. If the output shaft is moving then all the gears in the trans will be moving (its a constant mesh). So as long as you are moving you will get a good engagement.

The only time you can get a dog misalignment is when you aren't moving. If you are sitting stopped in neutral, all the gears in the transmission are stationary and only the dogs are moving. When you pull the clutch and kick it into first, the dogs slip into the stationary gears
The clunk is the sudden stop of the input shaft.

If you wait too long the input shaft will stop spinning and the dogs become stationary, if you try to snick first you can have a misalignment and won't get an engagement. Engaging the clutch to spin the input shaft again will allow the engagement.


This is exactly the same reason that when the engine isn't running, sometimes you need to rock the bike back and forth to get your gears to engage. This rocking moves all the gears in the transmission while the dogs are stationary. It's the same affect as letting the clutch out in neutral. But you are moving the output shaft instead of the input shaft.
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post #29 of 40 (permalink) Old 05-10-2015, 06:59 PM
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Yeah, when sitting it's even worse, that makes sense. I recall reading this same explanation in the past, but I'm mistakenly applying it to moving as well.

Regarding the OP, it just takes seat time to get more comfortable with big downshifts. Most of my track oopsies have been from underestimating my RPMs when clutching out.
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post #30 of 40 (permalink) Old 05-10-2015, 09:19 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FightingChance View Post
Regarding the OP, it just takes seat time to get more comfortable with big downshifts. Most of my track oopsies have been from underestimating my RPMs when clutching out.
That has been my experience too, and no matter how fast I learn to blip and downshift it will still cost me focus and time at step 3. Hence my original question.

Last edited by Spaghetti; 05-10-2015 at 09:41 PM.
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