CCT noise confirmed? - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 26 (permalink) Old 09-28-2018, 03:44 PM Thread Starter
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CCT noise confirmed?

Hi guys,

Im still finding my way around the CBR600rr.
I'm wondering whether anyone can watch this short youtube clip and advise whether they think this is the dreaded CCT noise or just valve noise.

https://youtu.be/T7RpxftMPno

The clip shows the engine being started from cold and rev'd to 4.5k
The noise seems to be clear from 3.5 - 5k and starts around 20 seconds into the video.
I appreciate of course it was filmed with a phone and so is different to real life. However any and all opinions welcomed.

The bike is a 2007 with 15.5k miles on the clock.
I'm hoping to get the valves checked in a month or so.
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post #2 of 26 (permalink) Old 09-28-2018, 06:54 PM
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Definitely cam chain noise. No worries though the tensioner is easy as pie to replace.

And fyi that's not a 2007.

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post #3 of 26 (permalink) Old 09-28-2018, 07:08 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for taking a look HP. You're right its an 05-06 model but was registered July 07 so Ive mistakenly referred to it as an 07 model.
I'll take a look at replacing it this weekend. I'm aware the engine needs to be at TDC to avoid the cams slipping when there is no tension on the chain. This is the only part that concerns me. To be fair though I haven't heard of anyone's engine slipping a tooth when completing the cam chain tensioner replacement. So Im guessing it must be an incredibly rare occurrence.
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post #4 of 26 (permalink) Old 09-28-2018, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diefenbaker View Post
Thanks for taking a look HP. You're right its an 05-06 model but was registered July 07 so Ive mistakenly referred to it as an 07 model.
I'll take a look at replacing it this weekend. I'm aware the engine needs to be at TDC to avoid the cams slipping when there is no tension on the chain. This is the only part that concerns me. To be fair though I haven't heard of anyone's engine slipping a tooth when completing the cam chain tensioner replacement. So Im guessing it must be an incredibly rare occurrence.
The whole TDC thing is nothing but a common misconception. It doesn't matter where the motor is when you swap tensioners. All that matters is that you don't TURN the motor while there is no tension on the cam chain.

It's as easy as removing the side fairing, removing the tensioner, and putting the new one back in. Are you planning to go oem or APE (manual)?

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post #5 of 26 (permalink) Old 09-29-2018, 03:38 AM Thread Starter
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Planning to go OEM, I dont want the hassle of having to adjust it every so often and I'd be too paranoid about whether it was too tight/loose with the manual APE style one.
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post #6 of 26 (permalink) Old 09-29-2018, 10:45 AM
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Setting tdc takes 3 seconds and is worth doing. The cams at tdc won't be under load so there is no risk of them moving.


Just do it before you pull the tensioner (no ****!) as we recently had a guy who pretty well destroyed his by doing the opposite.
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post #7 of 26 (permalink) Old 09-29-2018, 01:10 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wibbly View Post
Setting tdc takes 3 seconds and is worth doing. The cams at tdc won't be under load so there is no risk of them moving.


Just do it before you pull the tensioner (no ****!) as we recently had a guy who pretty well destroyed his by doing the opposite.
Managed to replace the tensioner today.

You're right Wibbly, with the crank case cover removed its only a few seconds and for peace of mind I did it. Making sure to rotate it clockwise so any slack is on the tensioner side. The engine still rattles at around 3-5k so I am guessing the noise I am hearing is just general rattle from the valves. As mentioned I will be getting the valves checked soon.

It was worth changing the tensioner for peace of mind more than anything else.
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post #8 of 26 (permalink) Old 09-29-2018, 03:19 PM
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Have you tried putting some fresh oil in? From my experience the hydraulic tensioners can be sensitive to different oil age, weight, and brand.

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post #9 of 26 (permalink) Old 09-29-2018, 08:06 PM
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Was the unit you replaced broken? I think If it is broken it would be obvious (it was obvious on my Magna).
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post #10 of 26 (permalink) Old 09-29-2018, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Wazoo View Post
Was the unit you replaced broken? I think If it is broken it would be obvious (it was obvious on my Magna).
He posted a youtube video, and apparently it is very obvious. I trust Honda Power to know.

To the OP: I replaced my CCT with OEM, and about 10k miles later the noise started coming back. Then again, I have almost 80k miles, so my cam chain might just need to be replaced. Although they should last like 100k.

If I could go back in time, I would have gone with a manual CCT, so I could fine tune it as time goes on, like right now.
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post #11 of 26 (permalink) Old 09-29-2018, 10:28 PM
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Yeah the video appears to be gone but it was the classic cam chain noise.

I love my manual tensioner. Like you said it allows real fine tuning unlike the auto tensioner.

So OP did the rattling sound not change at all?

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post #12 of 26 (permalink) Old 09-29-2018, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel Nut View Post
He posted a youtube video, and apparently it is very obvious. I trust Honda Power to know.

To the OP: I replaced my CCT with OEM, and about 10k miles later the noise started coming back. Then again, I have almost 80k miles, so my cam chain might just need to be replaced. Although they should last like 100k.

If I could go back in time, I would have gone with a manual CCT, so I could fine tune it as time goes on, like right now.
I saw that video. Since he replaced it he has the old unit "in hand". So my question was, since he still has the noise, was THAT unit actually broken.
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post #13 of 26 (permalink) Old 09-29-2018, 10:49 PM
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I don't know if it's always obvious to tell if the tensioner has failed though. My old 94 CBR for example made a nasty rattle sound, and when I swapped the cct the old unit appeared to be fine. Meanwhile the new manual tensioner allowed me to fully eliminate the rattling.

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post #14 of 26 (permalink) Old 09-29-2018, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Honda-Power View Post
I don't know if it's always obvious to tell if the tensioner has failed though. My old 94 CBR for example made a nasty rattle sound, and when I swapped the cct the old unit appeared to be fine. Meanwhile the new manual tensioner allowed me to fully eliminate the rattling.
On my 3rd gen Magna it was obvious. Partzilla Fiche makes it look like a similar design, so I think it might be obvious. Here's a failed 3G Magna CCT for reference. I made the video to post on another forum, rest assured the internal spring in the tensioner was broken.
https://youtu.be/hzuAOfCugjY
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post #15 of 26 (permalink) Old 09-29-2018, 11:24 PM
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Hi guys,

I just saw a you tube video and he says to use a "key" to release the old one and install the new one? do i need special parts to do this? i was going to get the OEM tensioner and a gasket and do mine when i check my valve clearances....
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post #16 of 26 (permalink) Old 09-29-2018, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wazoo View Post
On my 3rd gen Magna it was obvious. Partzilla Fiche makes it look like a similar design, so I think it might be obvious. Here's a failed 3G Magna CCT for reference. I made the video to post on another forum, rest assured the internal spring in the tensioner was broken.
https://youtu.be/hzuAOfCugjY
Gotcha. Mine did not fail in that manner. Mine actually intermittently worked perfectly, then other times would get "stuck" or something, and the chain would rattle bad.

My plunger moved nicely when I had it off too. Spring was intact.

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post #17 of 26 (permalink) Old 09-29-2018, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Cropduster View Post
Hi guys,

I just saw a you tube video and he says to use a "key" to release the old one and install the new one? do i need special parts to do this? i was going to get the OEM tensioner and a gasket and do mine when i check my valve clearances....
When I bought a tensioner for my 94 Magna, the new tensioner came with a key. Hopefully this one does too. If it doesn't, they can be easily fabricated.
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post #18 of 26 (permalink) Old 09-30-2018, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Wazoo View Post
When I bought a tensioner for my 94 Magna, the new tensioner came with a key. Hopefully this one does too. If it doesn't, they can be easily fabricated.
It looks like the new one does, but the guy used one to remove the old one?
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post #19 of 26 (permalink) Old 09-30-2018, 04:14 AM Thread Starter
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Have you tried putting some fresh oil in? From my experience the hydraulic tensioners can be sensitive to different oil age, weight, and brand.
Hi guys, thanks for the replies and suggestions. To confirm a few things. The noise is pretty much the same with the new tensioner. So I am putting it down to valve train noise. I'm fairly mechanically minded and Im not concerned anything is wrong. As mentioned its coming up to 16k miles and to my knowledge has never had the clearances checked so its possible the clearances are a little loose and causing a little more noise than expected. As we know its better to have the clearances a little looser than a little too tight.
For the cost of the tensioner I have peace of mind now anyway that its working as it should.

I have recently changed the oil and filter to high quality fully synth blend for the very reason you mention HP.

Here a picture comparing the old one to the new one. The old one seemed fine and was smooth when retracting the arm.

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post #20 of 26 (permalink) Old 09-30-2018, 04:19 AM Thread Starter
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When I bought a tensioner for my 94 Magna, the new tensioner came with a key. Hopefully this one does too. If it doesn't, they can be easily fabricated.
The new one does come with a little tab that looks like it was designed simply to hold the arm in during transportation. It can certainly be used as a 'key' to wind back the tensioner but it is very small and fiddly compared to a specifically designed key. If you're still curious I will post a comparison picture later.
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post #21 of 26 (permalink) Old 09-30-2018, 04:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Diefenbaker View Post
The new one does come with a little tab that looks like it was designed simply to hold the arm in during transportation. It can certainly be used as a 'key' to wind back the tensioner but it is very small and fiddly compared to a specifically designed key. If you're still curious I will post a comparison picture later.
awesome mate thank you,

so did you just unbolt yours and pull it out or is there a specific way to take it out?

My manual is on back order and I have my engine out for a valve check so I wanted to get as much done as I can before I reinstall it.....
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post #22 of 26 (permalink) Old 09-30-2018, 08:56 AM
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Just unbolt it to take it out. You need a key to wind back the spring in order to install the new one or the plunger will hit the tensioner bar before its seated. The key goes into the hole under the single bolt on the end of the tensioner (remove this bolt on the old one to see how it works). After the tensioner is bolted up, then remove the key and the plunger will be put under spring tension. The photo attached is from my Magna manual and shows how to make a key for it. I don't have the CBR manual yet, but I think it's probably very similar. If you have the old tensioner "in hand" you could determine sizes and make a key.
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post #23 of 26 (permalink) Old 09-30-2018, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diefenbaker View Post
Hi guys, thanks for the replies and suggestions. To confirm a few things. The noise is pretty much the same with the new tensioner. So I am putting it down to valve train noise. I'm fairly mechanically minded and Im not concerned anything is wrong. As mentioned its coming up to 16k miles and to my knowledge has never had the clearances checked so its possible the clearances are a little loose and causing a little more noise than expected. As we know its better to have the clearances a little looser than a little too tight.
For the cost of the tensioner I have peace of mind now anyway that its working as it should.

I have recently changed the oil and filter to high quality fully synth blend for the very reason you mention HP.

Here a picture comparing the old one to the new one. The old one seemed fine and was smooth when retracting the arm.

Valves won't get loose with time. They'll get tight.


With 16k miles I'd be surprised if they are far out. Also surprised if the guide is worn, but it's possible I suppose.

If the chain guide is worn excessively the tensioner cannot do its job properly. Keep that in mind.


Switching to a manual like many do I believe just masks the issue. As the manual can adjust farther than the stock unit.
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post #24 of 26 (permalink) Old 09-30-2018, 02:39 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Cropduster View Post
awesome mate thank you,
so did you just unbolt yours and pull it out or is there a specific way to take it out?
My manual is on back order and I have my engine out for a valve check so I wanted to get as much done as I can before I reinstall it.....


Here is the comparison pic I said I would sort for you CropDuster.
The smaller key is one that comes with the new tensioner and the bigger is one I got from ebay for £5.
As I stated it is possible to do the job with the little key that comes from Honda but it is a little fiddly.

The two pictures to the right show how much the key sticks out as you're winding the tensioner in. Once it is all the way in you would push the key in a little further to hold the tensioner in the 'wound up' position.


Last edited by Diefenbaker; 09-30-2018 at 02:47 PM.
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post #25 of 26 (permalink) Old 09-30-2018, 10:23 PM
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Valves won't get loose with time. They'll get tight.


With 16k miles I'd be surprised if they are far out. Also surprised if the guide is worn, but it's possible I suppose.

If the chain guide is worn excessively the tensioner cannot do its job properly. Keep that in mind.


Switching to a manual like many do I believe just masks the issue. As the manual can adjust farther than the stock unit.
What issue? The issue most of the time is a bad tensioner, not a bad chain guide or overly stretched chain. And to go one further, I believe with a manual tensioner, you are able to extend the life of the cam chain and guide by applying the minimal tension necessary.

Yes there is more room for error, but I believe there is also room to improve.

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post #26 of 26 (permalink) Old 09-30-2018, 10:39 PM
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So guides don't wear? Chains don't wear?


All I'm saying is that increasing your range of adjustment via a manual tensioner is not a solution to the underlying issue


The bike is perfect from factory. When it reaches a service interval that a new tensioner doesn't fix, putting a longer travel tensioner is a bandaid to the underlying issue


And considering how many people fail to keep the chain they can see (drive chain) correctly adjusted, I have very little faith in them to keep a chain they can't see in spec.
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