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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-28-2015, 05:45 AM Thread Starter
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Got a speeding fine, need opinion on camera images.

These two images are my alleged speeding offence from last week. The speed limit of the road is 60km/h, and I was supposedly doing 73km/h. Sorry, I haven't resized the images, I have left it exactly the way they gave me, unedited.

Those two boxes in each lane are the sensor/triggers embedded in the road.

To be honest, I do not recall this particular day and wouldn't know for sure whether I was speeding or not, but I do not think I was. The only obvious thing to me from the pictures is that I'm travelling faster than the cars going the same direction as me, that's all. In fact, I believe they are travelling significantly slower than the speed limit, particularly the one's going up the hill.

I looked at the timestamps of the two images which is given above each image. The time difference between them is 0.7 seconds.

That intersection is fairly small, I will go later and measure the length of the intersection, but for now, let's assume that it's 10m long.

Let's say then, that I've covered 10m in 0.7 seconds, which means I'm travelling at a speed of 10/0.7 = 14.286m/s

This is equal to 14.286 x 3.6 = 51.42km/h

I also do not think I was speeding because that intersection is pretty bumpy, in fact if you look at the first and second picture, I haven't followed a straight line. I'm kind of avoiding that bumpy, broken bit of road near the traffic light. These are of course just observations from the picture as I have no recollection of this particular incident.

73km/h is 45mph, does that realistically look like the distance a vehicle covers in 0.7 seconds at 45mph? Any insight is appreciated! I'm going to have to file a review, if that fails my only other option is to take it to court.



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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-28-2015, 06:57 AM
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Subpoena the sensors and cameras as witnesses.
Be sure to ask about their certifications.
Take measurements of everything.
Were the certifications done for that day?

There's always a thief out there stalking, so they can pilfer and rob.

For that speed to have been calculated, the distance between the shots would be 14 meters.

Nobody remembers every nanosecond of their lives, but since they're watching in picoseconds you must finance them for their discretions and superiority in the hypercritical withdraw of your blood.

It's like a giant mosquito. I guess you should feel lucky.

There's a science to ripping people off, good luck fighting.
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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-28-2015, 10:16 AM
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Edit: The following is probably crap as per wibbly's post.
Edit 2: Yep, total crap. Disregard.

Out of curiosity, what do you figure the triggering weight is of that sensor? Just to entertain the thought, let's assume it's close to the weight of the bike. Now take a car, and as soon as the front wheels hit the sensor, there's probably more than enough weight distributed on the front wheels to trigger the sensor and the counter starts. In case of the bike, there may not be enough weight on the front end to trigger the counter until the rear tire weighs down the sensor enough to trigger it but you've already traveled further than a car. That would throw off the distance/time measurement by a bike length-ish against your favor. I don't know to what speed those cameras are set to issue a ticket but the ones in my area allow about 10mph over the limit before they issue one. If it does turn out that the sensor's triggering weight is more than what's distributed on the front of your bike, there's enough room to argue that if a bike length is taken into account, that you may be just under the threshold. I'm also assuming here that the sensors are activated by pressure.

Last edited by Lyoha; 01-28-2015 at 01:58 PM.
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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-28-2015, 10:55 AM
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Lyoha, they are inductive loops, not weight sensors
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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-28-2015, 11:00 AM
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Well, that nukes that reasoning. Are they all though? I haven't done any sort of research into it.
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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-28-2015, 12:32 PM
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Yes.

If you look in the pics you can see how its done.

They cut a square slot in the pavement and install the loop, then have a slot that runs back to the control box to carry the signal wiring. The squares you see aren't floating at all, the slots aren't very deep. Once it is all installed they seal up the slots with what appears to be some sort of epoxy caulking.

The loops are a specified distance apart, so they measure the time between pulses to calculate a speed. The type of vehicle hitting the loop is irrelevant because any lag in generating a pulse will be the same for both loops.
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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-28-2015, 12:41 PM
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Rothmans,

despite the gobbledegook that shoichiro was going on about, he did make one valid point. for 73km/h, you'd have travelled 14 meters. for you to bring an arbitrary number like 10 to validate your case is a weak approach. you could have easily travelled 14 meters there.



secondly, your speed is taken by the inductive loops, not by the cameras. they take two pics for every violation, so it's not to say that you were going 73 in the pics, it means you crossed the loops at 73. the first photo triggered with you just passing the loops, and the 2nd .7 seconds later. it's hard to tell if your brake light is on or not, but it could have been that you were slowing down as you hit the loops, so the speed traveled over the loops will exceed the one you have inferred from the photos.

but you are still making arbitrary claims at the moment.

the loops are a calibrated instrument, estimating distance by a picture certainly can't be considered a more reliable method.
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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-28-2015, 01:26 PM
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Lol how bad is this ticket. A speeding ticket here is not that big of a deal in my opinion.

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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-28-2015, 05:50 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wibbly View Post
Rothmans,

despite the gobbledegook that shoichiro was going on about, he did make one valid point. for 73km/h, you'd have travelled 14 meters. for you to bring an arbitrary number like 10 to validate your case is a weak approach. you could have easily travelled 14 meters there.



secondly, your speed is taken by the inductive loops, not by the cameras. they take two pics for every violation, so it's not to say that you were going 73 in the pics, it means you crossed the loops at 73. the first photo triggered with you just passing the loops, and the 2nd .7 seconds later. it's hard to tell if your brake light is on or not, but it could have been that you were slowing down as you hit the loops, so the speed traveled over the loops will exceed the one you have inferred from the photos.

but you are still making arbitrary claims at the moment.

the loops are a calibrated instrument, estimating distance by a picture certainly can't be considered a more reliable method.
Wibbly, I did state that I have to go back to the intersection to do a measurement. My estimate was based on the best I can do with two pictures given to me. It is nothing more than what I said in my original post.

I also do not think my estimate is unrealistic, how long do you think the red Mitsubishi next to me is? Now visualise 3 of them bumper to bumper across the intersection? I estimate 3 of them at 3 metres each is enough to fill the intersection.

I am aware of how our speed camera system works, it's the exact system for our toll roads, and the same for triggering traffic lights when stopped and waiting for it to turn green. Yes, they are inductive loops.

Nowhere did I state estimating distance by pictures is a more reliable method. These pictures are supposed evidence of me speeding, what would be the point of sending pictures if they aren't proof? Neither of the pictures show me braking, so if they don't show me braking then you can't hypothesise that I was braking before I hit the loops. In fact I'm almost certain by looking at these picture that I'm not in fact braking. The tail light is only marginally brighter than my red reflector, I think it's just simply turned ON like all motorcycle tail lights are when the key is turned, that's it. It would become even brighter if I applied the brakes.

Speed camera fines here are sometimes overturned, in fact, in some cases, hundreds of fines or thousands are overturned simultaneously due to calibration errors or other problems resulting in incorrectly fined motorists.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wibbly View Post
Yes.

If you look in the pics you can see how its done.

They cut a square slot in the pavement and install the loop, then have a slot that runs back to the control box to carry the signal wiring. The squares you see aren't floating at all, the slots aren't very deep. Once it is all installed they seal up the slots with what appears to be some sort of epoxy caulking.

The loops are a specified distance apart, so they measure the time between pulses to calculate a speed. The type of vehicle hitting the loop is irrelevant because any lag in generating a pulse will be the same for both loops.
I'd also like to point a few other reasons why I don't believe I was speeding. This is a few minutes from where I live. I'm aware of this camera, it has been here for more than 6 months. I travel this road everyday.

No reason for me to lie here, as it wouldn't achieve anything. I was legitimately surprised when I got this fine, I also cannot recall this incident. If I felt I was speeding and thought I got pinged, I would remember it.

Finally, take a look at that first picture, notice how you can see the definition of the hubcaps of the red Mitsubishi? Now look at the SUV stopped in the middle of the intersection on the oncoming lanes, can you see the definition of his rims/hubcaps? What does that tell you? It tells me that the red Mitsubishi was travelling extremely slowly. Which would mean that I was no where near 73km/h.

I think those lights at the intersection were red just moments before those pictures were taken, I would have been behind those cars and as it turned green I accelerated quicker than them covering more ground, that is not evidence of me exceeding the limit. Finally, here's another unlikely reason



That is the intersection in question, the traffic heading that direction has to make a 90 degree turn and as a result are generally quite slow leaving that intersection as there's often stopped traffic already waiting. I don't know what the scenario was, but that's just my guess having driven that road for the last 9 years. Google image distances aren't accurate, but I'd say that 10m mark is fairly close to my estimate earlier. I was well within 10m.



Now, I had no intention of making this a court case in the forums as this does nothing to help me, but I think if I did go to a court, the judge could ask me the same as you did, so it may help that I'm prepared to answer them accordingly.
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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-28-2015, 05:55 PM Thread Starter
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Lol how bad is this ticket. A speeding ticket here is not that big of a deal in my opinion.
$109 and 1 demerit point.

I don't think anyone should pay or give in to something they haven't done. I do not think I was speeding. Like I said earlier, this is a very familiar road to me and the camera has been there for a while. I was surprised getting this fine in the mail.
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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-28-2015, 07:52 PM
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The pictures aren't for determining speed. They are for identifying the speeder.

The shutter speed on that camera is going to be fast, easily fast enough to freeze a turning wheel
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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-28-2015, 07:57 PM
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finally, i just measured my girlfriends car (a mazda 3 sedan, this is very much a COMPACT CAR)

it is 4.5 meters long.

i did a quick google and a mitsubishi lancer is 457 cm long.

this means that the car is FIFTY PERCENT longer than your estimate.


so now that 14 metres instead of 10 is looking pretty reasonable isnt it.
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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-28-2015, 08:11 PM
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These threads entertain me, carry on.
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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-28-2015, 09:45 PM Thread Starter
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It appears I have majorly underestimated the length of the car.

Just got hold of a measuring wheel, will go out there with a friend later tonight to measure the intersection using that and a separate tape measure. As I can't go in the middle of the road and measure I will have to use the pedestrian walk at the side which will add more distance as it's a curved foothpath and raised off the road.

As I have no Mitusbishi, I'm going to use the bike's length as reference. Measured it at 2.1m with an intentional error. The specifications state 2.03m

I don't look like I have travelled anywhere near 14m, but as I'm obviously blind and can't estimate from pictures I have to wait till tonight.

Wibbly, thanks for chasing up my errors. Fortunately, my original estimates of 3m whilst wrong, placed my incorrect speed at 51km/h which is more than 20km/h less than alleged speed, which gives me some room. If the results at the intersection indicate I was indeed speeding then I won't even bother with the review, I will pay up, but as I do not think I was, I will do what I planned.
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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-28-2015, 09:47 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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These threads entertain me, carry on.
As for you, TheX, there aren't many threads or posts of mine that you fail to make a comment in is there? I see you're still sore that I sarcastically told you off a few days ago, what's wrong? No comeback? Privately, I'm worried if I had to go to court (for anything), you'd stand up in the back of the court during a proceeding and shout out "that's just your opinion"

I believe that it secretly excites you when you have to engage in some kind of negative conversation. Go practice your one yard stare somewhere else, perhaps you can manifest this online persona and façade of yours elsewhere in real life, perhaps to some teenage girl that is looking to make her emotional connections a reality.

Are you entertained now? This is what you were looking for wasn't it? You're older than my dad, stop getting into arguments with your son about speeding

I've been looking for a block button, but I can't seem to find one (I am blind after all), can't judge distances, not even sure how I haven't fallen off a motorcycle yet. Probably have an invisible guide dog. I may just have to quickly scroll down past your posts from now on to prevent getting encouraged to respond, as that's what you thrive on anyway.
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post #16 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-28-2015, 10:05 PM
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What may help here is to note where you are in relation to the red car in the pics.

In pic 1 your front wheel is about in line with his back wheel. In pic 2 your whole bike is in front of his car.

So you have traveled at least the length of his car further than he has in .7 seconds.

To be fair let's call it 4.5m

That amounts to 23 km/h

So if he's doing the speed limit you are going 83. If he's doing 10 under you are going the speed they caught you at


Its probably safe to say the red car is probably not going under 30km/h as it would have to be doing if your speed is as you suggested
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post #17 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-28-2015, 11:11 PM
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Got a speeding fine, need opinion on camera images.

From the pics it seems like the car in front of u is going the same speed as you are.

I heard that there are possibilities of beating the cameras but it will probably cost more than the ticket unless u can prove it with facts of time and distance but as Wibbly said you passing that car in that distance shows the speed difference.

Good luck on the case tho, hope it goes your way

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post #18 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-29-2015, 03:13 AM
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Don't they need to prove that it was you in the picture? What's to stop you from saying it was a friend or that you are trying to sell it and it happened on the test ride?
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post #19 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-29-2015, 05:15 AM
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Quote:
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I see you're still sore that I sarcastically told you off a few days ago, what's wrong? No comeback?
Haha, you flatter yourself. I have no idea what you're talking about.

Now the thread is even MORE entertaining.
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