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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-14-2016, 03:37 PM Thread Starter
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A nasty bit of news

A motorcycle helmet requirement repeal proponent dies in a moto crash. Before you guys get up in arms about helmet laws, read the story and see that the man was wearing one himself. Don't know his injuries or the type of helmet he was wearing but it goes to show that there will still be responsible folks attempting to protect their noggin even without the aid of the government.

Sponsor of helmet law repeal dies in motorcycle crash, was wearing helmet | Michigan Radio
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-14-2016, 04:08 PM
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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-14-2016, 07:08 PM
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Read the story, *shrugs*

Only a freakin idiot rides without a helmet.
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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-14-2016, 07:43 PM
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Unfortunate he died. However if you ride without a helmet, don't expect any sympathy. You're an idiot if you don't wear a helmet.
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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-14-2016, 11:30 PM
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I always wear my helmet and would never ride without it (cept that one time a dbag stole it off my bike, forcing me to) but I don't feel it should be mandated by law. Seatbelts either. If an adult wants to ride without a helmet then they damn well should be able to.

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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-15-2016, 12:06 PM Thread Starter
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Choosing whether or not to wear a helmet should be entirely optional as this guy pushed and actually became a thing in Michigan. As grim as it is, the reality is that the idiot population in Michigan did get a good mow and those that remained hopefully learned from others why helmets are a good idea. I don't see other states following suit anytime soon though. This nanny culture is deeply ingrained.
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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-15-2016, 11:38 PM
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I dont understand.. murica. No way in hell should you be required to wear a helmet or seat belt...

Edit sucks he died helmet or not dont wish that on anyone. Well a few, not the incent

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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-15-2016, 11:53 PM
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Mm.

If your choices in life only affected YOU, then I see how stopping anyone from doing, or not doing anything, would have a certain logic.

But your choices don't affect just you. Because you exist in society (unless you are doing the Yukon mountain man thing), you must coexist. Coexistence requires an agreed upon level of compromise to that existence (a social contract, as it were.)

Because humans are sympathetic creatures and not robots, when people get hurt, we do what we can to help them (rather than let them die, or require up front payment of services rendered before care is given) without the guarantee of repayment.

Medical care can be expensive, moreso in places that don't like to acknowledge the idea that everyone gets sick or hurt at some point in time.

When you ride a motorcycle, statistically you are 37 times more likely to experience a grievous injury than someone who does not ride. If you do crash, your injuries can range from 'none' to 'mortal'.

Of injuries, head and neck trauma can be some of the most serious injuries a person can endure, and be the most difficult and costly to recuperate from.

Should you crash, hit your head, and fall into a coma or suffer a severe grade traumatic brain injury but not die immediately, you affect:

- The people who caused or witnessed your crash
- The EMTs that come collect you
- The doctors that create a plan for your medical care
- The nurses that keep you bathed and attend to your needs
- Your friends who care about you
- Your family that cares about you

It could be reasoned that the impact you have on all these parties, is negative. Mostly so to your loved ones. No one wants this.

Now, speaking about payment:

If you have no insurance, the cost to keep you alive and return you to some degree of functionality will be severe. The hospital will attempt to collect on this bill; if you and your family cannot bear this cost, it can be discharged in several ways. When you default on this, the hospital doesn't necessarily eat this cost; through a whole bunch of financial maneuvering, some will be passed on to the city/state, which of course, turns into a deficit that the city and state (and federal) makes up with taxes. (So yes, essentially the USA does have socialized health care, just in the least efficient way possible that gets citizens the poorest amount of care at the highest cost.)

If you do have insurance, the policy will pay (some) of the bills you will incur. The insurance company plans for this though, by keeping premiums higher for everyone else that pays for insurance. So, effectively, everyone that holds insurance is paying into a pool that only people who make claims pull from. The higher the cost of the care, the more money is pulled from the pool, and the more the insurance company will raise rates overall to compensate.

SO, your head injury affects dozens or hundreds of people personally, and anyone who pays taxes and/or insurance. That's a lot more people than just 'you.'

BUT I HAVE GOOD NEWS!

Riding a motorcycle is dangerous, but a Motorcycle Crash Helmet that has been built to the standards of safety as deemed by DOT FMVSS 218, ECE 22.05, SG/JIS and similar offers a tremendous reduction in head acceleration forces and is statistically proven to reduce head, neck and face injuries in the event of a crash. Because helmets are fairly inexpensive and easy to wear, their impediment of the act of riding is practically nothing.

Given this very high benefit to very low impact, there is a logic in making their use Mandatory, given the benefits (to you, and thus, to us all.)



"But FightingChance. First they make us wear the helmets. Then they force us to live our lives inside a soft rolly bubble, like a hamster ball but padded. That is the slippery slope. That is what is next."

I don't believe so. Because we can use reasoning to see why not all safety equipment has the same value.

I crashed once, in my one piece leather suit. It prevented any injury to me whatsoever, which was very nice. But: a leather riding suit is more expensive than a helmet, sometimes by quite a bit. It is not easy to put on or take off, and it is difficult to store. It can be uncomfortable to wear on hot days. And the injuries it protects against are less critical in nature - it prevents road rash, but this is not a life threatening injury (usually.)

So I would say (and the legislators around the world have said so far, in places where there is mandatory safety gear) - a full riding suit offers a poorer value of safety and convenience, and thus should not be made mandatory. So I do not believe mandatory helmet laws are a march towards martial law.

I honestly don't say all this to be snarky, or say that I am right - there is value in differing viewpoints in what is considered freedom (and it is great to be in a country where you are allowed to have and express these differing viewpoints, because there are places in this world where you definitely cannot). I only say, to consider what it means to make a choice, and how that choice can have affects beyond what you have considered before.

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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-16-2016, 12:09 AM
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FightingChance, I agree with you in principle but not in this example. I would've agreed completely if not wearing a helmet somehow posed a danger to others but it doesn't. If the impact to society are those bullet points you mentioned then pretty much everything risky should be legislated away.

As for people not wearing helmets being "idiots"... a lot of people have similar sentiments about riding motorcycles period. Yet we still choose to ride. Personal risk threshold. It's too easy to call someone else an idiot because you disagree with their choice.

For the record, I would still wear a helmet even if it wasn't required.
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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-16-2016, 12:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AF4iK View Post
I would've agreed completely if not wearing a helmet somehow posed a danger to others but it doesn't.
Well, what is Danger? Fire is dangerous. Knives can be dangerous, even by accident. Drunk driving is dangerous, but now we're talking about humans making choices... drunk driving doesn't occur without humans. Is having bad things happen to you in life dangerous? It is a kind of danger, is it not, to be miserable, or the victim of a tragedy?

If someone loves you; and you die, because you didn't wear a helmet but could, and they have to keep on living - have you not introduced danger into their lives? If a son or daughter now no longer has a father, is that not more dangerous than before? That they have to live without you now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AF4iK View Post
If the impact to society are those bullet points you mentioned then pretty much everything risky should be legislated away.
This is a sort of fallacy, the same one that is like 'well, people still get murdered. So having laws against murdering people is useless.' Everything has impact to society, but with reasoning and compromise, we manage those risks. People the world over are still allowed to ride motorbikes despite the danger - it would be easy to simply disallow them. But it has not happened, because that is unreasonable. That is not a good management of risk (to sacrifice so much liberty in the pursuit of safety.) I would not agree with legislating everything away, and so far, that has not come to pass in the way that you describe. Totalitarian states come the closest to this, which is why I'm happy that we have democratic processes and peer review where we are.
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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-16-2016, 01:47 AM
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I feel you're all over the place here and it's hard to tell whether you're misinterpreting my post. My responses are below. Trying to keep this matter of fact so please don't mistake my "tone" if any should seem to show through:

Quote:
Originally Posted by FightingChance View Post
Well, what is Danger? Fire is dangerous. Knives can be dangerous, even by accident. Drunk driving is dangerous, but now we're talking about humans making choices... drunk driving doesn't occur without humans. Is having bad things happen to you in life dangerous? It is a kind of danger, is it not, to be miserable, or the victim of a tragedy?

If someone loves you; and you die, because you didn't wear a helmet but could, and they have to keep on living - have you not introduced danger into their lives? If a son or daughter now no longer has a father, is that not more dangerous than before? That they have to live without you now?
"Danger" in this case means some real risk of physical harm. We're talking about repercussions of a motorcycle accident after all. You seem to be waxing philosphical about the definition of danger. I could respond to each of your examples of "danger" but that would be digressing. My point is that wearing a helmet poses no risk of bodily harm to anyone but the rider. Your point seems to be that anything can be construed as "harm" whether physically, emotionally, etc. That's fine if you think so but I'm talking specifically about bodily harm. Hopefully that clears that up.

Quote:
This is a sort of fallacy, the same one that is like 'well, people still get murdered. So having laws against murdering people is useless.' Everything has impact to society, but with reasoning and compromise, we manage those risks. People the world over are still allowed to ride motorbikes despite the danger - it would be easy to simply disallow them. But it has not happened, because that is unreasonable. That is not a good management of risk (to sacrifice so much liberty in the pursuit of safety.) I would not agree with legislating everything away, and so far, that has not come to pass in the way that you describe. Totalitarian states come the closest to this, which is why I'm happy that we have democratic processes and peer review where we are.
This is where I feel you're being contradictory--maybe I've mis-read your post so let me know if that's the case.
To be clear, I don't think that all risky things should be legislated away. I was saying that is the outcome of your logic as I understand it.
Your murder example doesn't fit because murder poses a very real danger of bodily harm to others--only to others in fact. So it makes sense to have laws against murder. Yes, there are other reasons why murder is also bad for society but I'm making the distinction between murder and a guy not wearing a helmet here.

Basically, what I'm hearing from you is that everyone has some effect on everyone else (i.e. causality). So because the outcome of not wearing a helmet can potentially have a negative effect we should therefore enforce helmets.
I'm saying that view alone is not sufficient justification for mandating helmets. If instead the condition were: "If no helmet then must carry brick while riding" (absurd I know, just an example)... then I would agree that helmets should be enforced. Because riding without one runs the risk of others being injured or killed by said brick. But this scenario doesn't exist in our real world example.

Btw, it's fine if you believe that emotionally distressed family, friends, EMTs, etc justifies helmet laws. You are entitled to your belief. I'm just pointing out that your line of reasoning means it's fairly arbitrary as to what activities should fall under this umbrella. I mean, none of us have to ride and riding greatly increases the chance that we will be a strain on society in some way. I think you hit the nail on the head with the 'not giving up liberty for the sake of safety' argument. I agree with that. But it felt like you were saying it because you took part of my post literally.

[EDIT] Just want to add... while I believe helmets should be a choice, some part of me thinks maybe helmet laws should be enforced. Why? Because we care about other people's welfare (in this case riders). But if we enforce it then we must accept that we are sacrificing some modicum of liberty. Sometimes that is acceptable but, again, what is acceptable to you and I will differ. Personally, I would be willing to take that liberty away from minors because they often have not yet developed a mature sense of responsibility.[/EDIT]

Last edited by AF4iK; 09-16-2016 at 02:02 AM.
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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-16-2016, 02:41 AM
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It's a tough one and there's really good points all through this thread. I find it ironic that they guy responsible for repealing the helmet law died with helmet on and the stats are that since repealing the law fatalities have gone up what, 25%?

That alone should tell everyone that riding without a helmet is a huge risk. Should it be a choice? I think so. Provisionally. Perhaps something like this, new riders are required to wear a helmet for two years. Not a comprehensive answer, but something of a compromise.

I wish we could come up with something that prevents people from suing if they choose to engage in risky behavior. All too often the state has to pay when someone does something reckless.

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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-16-2016, 03:17 AM
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This guy's ideas were a danger for society (as I understand it)

Either way, all deaths in the road are a reason for sorrow, no matter who falls.



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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-16-2016, 09:34 AM Thread Starter
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People live, and people die, constantly. This indirect danger to society, whether through grieving or finances, applies to any fatality. What's different in each situation is the circumstances surrounding the loss. The friends and family of a [email protected] who refused to wear a helmet and ended up as modern art on the pavement could have been a bit more proactive in mitigating that risk. Helmets are cheap, yes. So what's keeping said good friends or family members in chipping in a few bucks for even the cheapest one that's rated properly for someone that they so care about? I don't see it the purpose of a government to protect individuals, or groups, from poor decisions.

I checked into Michigan helmet law and saw that you still have to wear a helmet if you're under 21 and there was some clause about the age of passengers as well. Pretty sure you have to wear one for some period just after getting your license too.

So after that period if a rider still doesn't see the benefits of a helmet, I believe, is ripe to be separated from society. Permanently.

Edit: As a part of my morning routine, I stumbled onto this just after typing up the post:

https://rideapart.com/articles/nhtsa...atalities-2015

"Overall, there were 382 more motorcyclist fatalities in 2015, an increase of 8.3 percent over 2014. In states without helmet laws, 58 percent of motorcyclists killed in 2015 were not wearing helmets, as compared to 8 percent in states with helmet laws."

If after reading that and the like you still think it's cool to eat bugs, godspeed...

Last edited by Lyoha; 09-16-2016 at 09:42 AM.
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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-16-2016, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyoha View Post
"Overall, there were 382 more motorcyclist fatalities in 2015, an increase of 8.3 percent over 2014. In states without helmet laws, 58 percent of motorcyclists killed in 2015 were not wearing helmets, as compared to 8 percent in states with helmet laws."

If after reading that and the like you still think it's cool to eat bugs, godspeed...
A person would have to be pretty thick to not make the correlation there...

It might seem petty but it would be nice to not have to wear a helmet during in-town test rides and trips to the mailbox (two streets over). Those are the two places where I find mandatory helmet law to be a pain. It's a lot easier to hear what's going on with the bucket off.

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post #16 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-16-2016, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjay67 View Post
A person would have to be pretty thick to not make the correlation there...

It might seem petty but it would be nice to not have to wear a helmet during in-town test rides and trips to the mailbox (two streets over). Those are the two places where I find mandatory helmet law to be a pain. It's a lot easier to hear what's going on with the bucket off.
I know more than one and two persons who died on short trips to buy bread/newpaper... Sometimes the silliest trips are the worse



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post #17 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-16-2016, 01:42 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah, I don't remember the exact numbers but the statistic is that the vast majority of accidents happen just a few miles from the destination. Especially if the route is familiar.
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post #18 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-16-2016, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyoha View Post
I checked into Michigan helmet law and saw that you still have to wear a helmet if you're under 21 and there was some clause about the age of passengers as well. Pretty sure you have to wear one for some period just after getting your license too.

So after that period if a rider still doesn't see the benefits of a helmet, I believe, is ripe to be separated from society. Permanently.
Thanks for looking that up. That sounds pretty reasonable to me.
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