Bike doesn't start after clutch cover re-install - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-21-2008, 09:27 PM Thread Starter
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Bike doesn't start after clutch cover re-install

Just put a new (undamaged) clutch cover on my '07. Let it cure for the last 24 hours, went to start it but no joy. Starter is fine and cranks but nothing catches. I can't imagine what's not together right, the only thing I can think of is maybe it has something to do with the dowel that has the thrust and wave washer on it. What order do they go in?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.
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post #2 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-21-2008, 11:11 PM Thread Starter
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The only two things affecting starting that are in there are the pin that holds those two washers and the pulse generator. What exactly does the pulse generator do? I'm using the original one, I just unbolted it from the first clutch cover and bolted it into the new one.
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post #3 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-22-2008, 10:17 AM
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The only two things affecting starting that are in there are the pin that holds those two washers and the pulse generator. What exactly does the pulse generator do? I'm using the original one, I just unbolted it from the first clutch cover and bolted it into the new one.
the pulse generator sends a signal to the ECU to initiate ignition. Also Known as the CKP (Crank Position) Sensor. if it is re-installed incorrectly, it will not let the engine fire (for obvious reasons).

Last edited by Knightslugger; 09-22-2008 at 02:34 PM.
 
post #4 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-22-2008, 02:30 PM
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So the starter motor is turning but it is not turning the engine? Is that right? If that is the case then you have a gear out of place. Do you have a manual? it would help but I can talk you through it. There is a shaft with two gears on it (one at each end) and you cannot get it out of the engine without removing the entire clutch. The fine toothed end needs to engage the starter motor and the smaller end with larger teeth engages the next gear.

The next gear goes on with the lip or ring side facing outward. The inside should be smooth that is facing the engine. Then goes the wave washer and then a flat washer. When you install the cover, 6 things have to line up, there are 4 dowel pins, the pin from the idler gear with the washers and the end of the shaft with the 2 gears on it.

If the idler gear is on, it probably won't fall off, chances are that the shaft with the 2 gears has fallen off while you were putting the cover back on and just needs to be put back.

Sorry for the bad news but it is an easy fix and just takes time.

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post #5 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-22-2008, 02:47 PM Thread Starter
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That is probably what happened (stuff fell off as I was putting it back on.) Argh. I hope the pulse generator didn't get knackered - who thought to put the connector up underneath the tank cover?

Well, here I go, back into the guts of the machine!
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post #6 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-22-2008, 03:35 PM Thread Starter
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Okay, I pull it off and here's what I see. The starter gear came tumbling out, not sure if it was loose all this time but it sounds likely, since the starter motor was spinning freely.




Here's the other side. The wave and thrust washers are on correctly; the gear though I'm not sure goes on which way. One side of the face has those three little indents; ronayers fiche says they face the wave washer, which means I have it backwards in the picture below. (link to fiche diagram: http://fiche.ronayers.com/Index.cfm/...TARTING_CLUTCH)



One more thing, as I was wiping away some oil, I accidentally turned the large gear with all the teeth at the bottom right (labeled #2 in the fiche diagram) counter clockwise slightly. Did I just mess up?
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post #7 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-22-2008, 03:55 PM
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this is the first i've heard of the starter spinning freely. you said in the OP that it was fine and cranks... this is not the case.
post #8 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-22-2008, 04:02 PM Thread Starter
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Well, I should say that it rotated counter clockwise with some resistance. When I tried to push it back it would not turn.
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post #9 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-22-2008, 04:39 PM
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you're on the right track, you do have the gear in backwards, so turn that around. The gear on the crankshaft has a one way bearing in it. It spins freely(or with little resistance) in one direction and locks to the crankshaft trying to go the other direction. Moving it didn't mess up anything. Just get all your gears lined back up and put it together.

The one way bearing is how the starter works. When you push the start button, the bearing locks the gear to the crankshaft and rotates the motor. When the bike starts, the crankshaft will start spinning faster than the starter is making it spin. This bearing lets the craknshaft spin without making the starter motor spin faster. So when you let off the starter button and the starter motor stops, this bearing is free and not locked otherwise your starter would keep spinning the whole time the motor is running.

If all the teeth are lined up, you're in good shape. Enjoy riding.

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post #10 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-22-2008, 04:53 PM Thread Starter
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Alright, sweet. I had to move the gear a little more to get all the gears to mesh, so I was like 'welp, this has gotta be this way. Also I don't think they'd design it like this if it were so easy to mess up'.

All the bits are in now, just gotta scrape away the previous gasket (I thought I was being frugal but it was still too much; gonna just smear on a way thin layer this time.) I'm a super pro now at getting the clutch lever to line up since I messed with it so much the first time. Should be good.

The only real bitch about it is that stupid pulse generator. The stopper that hangs out in the recess in the cover doesn't want to stay in place at all. I'm trying to figure out a way to suspend the cover just inches from the engine so they stopper can chill out inside the recess with some permatex holding it in.

Thank you for your assistance dcop17 and Knights, as always.
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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-22-2008, 07:28 PM Thread Starter
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Frak... didn't start. I'm pretty sure it's all together physically how it should be.

It cranks just doesn't catch. I thumbed the starter like three times. I notice the FI light on the dash blinks slowly after a few tries.

Pulse generator messed?
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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-22-2008, 07:57 PM
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how many times does it flash?
post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-22-2008, 08:12 PM Thread Starter
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I'll have to go take another look. It wasn't flashing initially, only after a few failed starting attempts.
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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-22-2008, 08:18 PM Thread Starter
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Tried the flooded engine procedure to make sure it wasn't my last attempts that made it choke, no joy.

FI light flashes 10 times; 1 long, 9 short, then repeats after a slight delay.

Edit: After downloading and looking at the service manual, it seems to be '19' blinks, which is 'no signal from the CKP sensor.' Now I need to know what the CKP sensor is...

Last edited by FightingChance; 09-22-2008 at 08:54 PM.
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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-22-2008, 08:46 PM
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TC 19: Ignition Pulse Generator, No Signal.

it's either upside down, broken, or disconnected. check it.
post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-22-2008, 08:55 PM Thread Starter
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Back in I go! Ugh.

When I first took the cover off I let it hang by the pulse generator. Probably not a good idea.

Fortunately, my replacement cover came with it's own pulse generator that I didn't use.
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post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-22-2008, 09:14 PM Thread Starter
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After looking at my spare cover and ckp sensor... I definitely put it in backwards. Sweet zombie jesus.
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post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-22-2008, 09:32 PM
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After looking at my spare cover and ckp sensor... I definitely put it in backwards. Sweet zombie jesus.


$10 it starts.
post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 02:27 AM Thread Starter
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The bike makes beautiful noise again.

Now if oil will helpfully stay inside the cover, I will be a happy motorcyclist once more.
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post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 02:47 AM Thread Starter
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Also, surprise! My replacement cover had two dowels stuck in it, which was fortunate because when I took my damaged cover off, there were only 3 dowels total. My bike really did get made on a Monday (or whatever day follows the sake specials)
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post #21 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-24-2008, 09:10 AM Thread Starter
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The bike has been sitting on stands for about two days now as I let the black Permatex cure. I've wiped the lowest point of the cover down and I'm getting just a little bit of oil residue each time (after a few hours anyway). Is it leaking? I haven't taken the bike out yet, I figure maybe the heat and pressure would help the cover settle in.
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post #22 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-24-2008, 12:04 PM
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Sounds bad. Chances are, with the oil cold and everything, now is when it would leak the least. Hot oil is thinner and will leak more. Also, the oil level is below this cover so there should not be any oil behind the cover if you were to take it off. If it is leaking now with just a splash of oil behind it, wait till it is running with a continuous flow of oil.

You said that you used permatex? I use Hondabond from the bike shop, it is semi-drying and oil proof, (i don't know what the advantage is of semi-drying is but that's what the guys at the shop recomended) I don't know if permatex is oil proof. I really hate to say to take it apart again but if you don't want it to leak oil, I think you will have to.

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post #23 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-24-2008, 12:30 PM Thread Starter
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It's this stuff: http://www.permatex.com/products/Aut...sket_Maker.htm

Saw it recommended in the clutch cover/stator cover removal thread.

There was probably some oil on the mating side of the engine case when I put it together. If I pull it again I'll put the bike down on the side stand so it'll lean away from me so oil won't be as likely to seep towards the edge. 4th time's the charm, right?

Last edited by FightingChance; 09-24-2008 at 12:37 PM.
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post #24 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-24-2008, 02:10 PM
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I bet you can do it in your sleep now.

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post #25 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-24-2008, 02:54 PM
 
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sounds like a huge pain in the ass. i hope i dont have to go into my clutch cover to find out whats ticking, but i think i may have to.....
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post #26 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-24-2008, 11:04 PM Thread Starter
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Well that's lame - the CKP sensor connector is buried beneath the actual fuel tank, not just the cover. I find this out after removing the sides and fuel cover, of course.
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post #27 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-26-2008, 05:49 PM
 
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It's this stuff: http://www.permatex.com/products/Aut...sket_Maker.htm

Saw it recommended in the clutch cover/stator cover removal thread.

There was probably some oil on the mating side of the engine case when I put it together. If I pull it again I'll put the bike down on the side stand so it'll lean away from me so oil won't be as likely to seep towards the edge. 4th time's the charm, right?

make sure it is on the sidestand when you put the cover back on
that will keep the oil from the bottom dripping onto the mating surfaces but turning the bike up. all the oil stays down and to the left away from the mating surface.

also i never once got the permatex stuff to work however by using that real thick hondabond 4. it worked perfectly the first time. that stuff is as thick as peanut butter and makes a great seal.

yamabond has the consistency of motor oil and i hate it.
the permatex must have time to set up before you smash the cover on or all the goo will squirt out the sides.
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post #28 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-26-2008, 06:53 PM
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post #29 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-26-2008, 07:45 PM Thread Starter
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make sure it is on the sidestand when you put the cover back on
that will keep the oil from the bottom dripping onto the mating surfaces but turning the bike up. all the oil stays down and to the left away from the mating surface.

also i never once got the permatex stuff to work however by using that real thick hondabond 4. it worked perfectly the first time. that stuff is as thick as peanut butter and makes a great seal.

yamabond has the consistency of motor oil and i hate it.
the permatex must have time to set up before you smash the cover on or all the goo will squirt out the sides.
Yeah I sat it down on the sidestand this last time. Let it cure for 40 hours and took it out, seems to be holding so I'm pretty happy. I used Permatex because I saw several posts saying that it was better than Hondabond, which was too runny... but after looking I've seen several positive posts about Hondabond. Oh well. I also read than Yamabond and Hondabond and some other product are all actually the same thing. In case I ever do it again, do I use Hondabond 4 or Hondabond HT?
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