03 Wont Start, have no idea! Please Help!!! - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 37 (permalink) Old 09-28-2008, 06:18 PM Thread Starter
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03 Wont Start, have no idea! Please Help!!!

OK, so I have a 03 600rr. Here are the details;

Bike would just turn off, randomly while riding. Usually I just turned it off then on again and it would start. But this time it didn't. The key turned on and starter turns but not priming of fuel.

-When key turned on, gauge cluster does its thing. But fuel pump does not prime.
- Fuel pump tested and works, no voltage going to pump.
- Tested BAS, works fine
- Checked fuses, and relays and all work fine
- Checked ECM, and there is no voltage going to it. Shop manual says there is an open circuit from the bat to the ECM.
-Engine kill switch I think is working fine, the relay clicks when itís turned on and off. The starter turns over despite whether itís on or off which I think is what it used to do. Itís a kill switch off of a 1000rr.

Please help, not sure what else to do.
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post #2 of 37 (permalink) Old 09-28-2008, 09:08 PM Thread Starter
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ok, so now when i've been testing the fuel cut off relay and engine kill relay and have been flicking on and off the key the bike barely turns on. and i can't switch it to high beams. There is power going to the engine cut off relay, and then power goes to the fuel cut off relay but doesn't make it from there to the ECU. the battery has around 11-12 volts in it. Its like there is something draining the power. I took off my alarm but still it does the same thing.
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post #3 of 37 (permalink) Old 09-29-2008, 04:50 PM
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I have experienced that 2 times but I'm sure there are more reasons than two why that would happen. First time was putting in a PC3 and I didn't hook up one of the fuel injecters. The cluster worked and everything but the fuel pump didn't prime. I could get the fuel pump to run by by-passing the relay but it still didn't start. The other was the ECU was bad and it did the same thing.

Get another ECU and try it or start looking through a wiring diagram but I'd try the ECU first. I have an extra if you want to bring your bike down to Dana Point.

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post #4 of 37 (permalink) Old 09-29-2008, 11:02 PM Thread Starter
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yeah its really frustrating, i checked and tested the ignition switch today and replaced the little diode but still no go. I had to replace my battery because it wasn't holding a charge, but still the fuel pump doesn't prime. the weird thing is that the ECU just doesn't get any power. Which is from the fuel cut off relay. is like the wire is broken somewhere from the relay to the computer. According to the wiring diagram. Power goes from the bat to the engine cut off relay, to the fuel cut off relay, then to the ECU, and it doesn't make it there. From other posts im going try and bypass the bas sensor, check the neutral switch, kick stand switch, regulator/rectifier then directly wire the power to the ECU. After that, im all out of luck, and might just do that, get an new ECU. Where is Dana Point? might just have to do that.
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post #5 of 37 (permalink) Old 09-30-2008, 12:58 AM
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So you're not getting any voltage on the BL/W wire into the gray connector of the ECU? That wire should always be hot no matter if the bike is on or not. Check the BL/W coming out of the fuel cut relay. You said it is good but just to make sure. Do you have the connectors that are for checking the ECU? I'd guess not, they look expensive and how often would you need them? I'd re-check the BL/W at the ECU. It is hard to get a reading, I had to use a voltmeter with a needle on one end to pierce the insulation on the wire. I couldn't get a good reading. Maybe stick a small piece of wire in the pin hole where the ecu connects. The ecu doesn't need to be connected to check this.

When I left the fuel injector wire off I checked that bike for 3 days. I put in a PC3 and then had the prob. Then removed it and still had the prob. What are the odds of missing one connector each time, so it was the last thing I checked.

Check everything else too, you never know what you'll find. Umn, Dana Point is about an hour south of L.A. just off of the 5 before San Clemente.

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post #6 of 37 (permalink) Old 09-30-2008, 01:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcope17 View Post
I have experienced that 2 times but I'm sure there are more reasons than two why that would happen. First time was putting in a PC3 and I didn't hook up one of the fuel injecters. The cluster worked and everything but the fuel pump didn't prime. I could get the fuel pump to run by by-passing the relay but it still didn't start. The other was the ECU was bad and it did the same thing.

Get another ECU and try it or start looking through a wiring diagram but I'd try the ECU first. I have an extra if you want to bring your bike down to Dana Point.
Funny that you mention the ECU not working. I had the same problem some weeks back after installing my PC3. I installed it, made sure everything was nice and tight. I turned the key, the cluster worked but the fuel pump didn't prime. I purchased a new ECU, removed the PC3 and all was well after that. I have since sent my PC3 to dynojet and I am currently waiting to see what's up.

I also sent them my ECU, cause everything was fine before I installed the PC3. Hopefully I'll be getting a new PC3 back from dynojet. It seems as if the main culprit was a faulty PC3 which caused the ECU to crap out on me.

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post #7 of 37 (permalink) Old 09-30-2008, 04:18 PM Thread Starter
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OK, so i think im narrowing down the problem. Should there be battery voltage going to the engine cut off relay and fuel cut off when the bike is off? (off with no key in)
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post #8 of 37 (permalink) Old 09-30-2008, 05:27 PM
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yes there should always be power there. unless the 20A fuse is blown

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post #9 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-01-2008, 09:52 AM Thread Starter
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OK that 20amp fuse is fine. But the engine cut off relay doesn't get power unless the key is on. Which essentially leads to the fuel cut off relay and then the computer. So if the computer should always be getting power I think the problem is coming from the starter switch by the battery. Im going to test that today.

Also, I found the main fuse, FI fuse, but is there a sub fuse? or is that the same thing as the FI fuse. I mean there is two fuses under the seat and also the ones under the left mid cowl. Are there any others.
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post #10 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-01-2008, 12:00 PM
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This bike is wired opposite of a car. Everything in a car is grounded and is controlled by applying +12v to the pos to turn it on.

On your bike, +12v should be common but turning it on is controlled by the -12v. (or ground) A wiring diagram will clarify this more.

do you have a wiring diagram? If not, I can send you one.

One last thing, I might be going to the Chaparral parking lot sale which is in San Bernardino. I'd be close to your area and can bring the ECU. This is no Guarantee, I have to take my fiance to the airport that day also so I don't know what time I have to go and stuff, I'll let you know.

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How to fix headlights... Dreamzboy's excellent write-up
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post #11 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-01-2008, 01:15 PM Thread Starter
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Hey thanks so much, but im in Ontario, Canada. I wish I lived in California, year round riding.

I do have a wiring diagram and a shop manual. So, i've been following the manual and have found that the ECM does not get any power. And the neutral switch is not grounded when its in neutral. But thats what i know forsure.
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post #12 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-01-2008, 02:20 PM
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Humn, that's a little further than I planned on riding but if for some reason I get up that way, I'll let you know. Don't hold your breath.

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How to fix headlights... Dreamzboy's excellent write-up
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post #13 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-02-2008, 10:42 AM Thread Starter
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OK, so the kick stand switch works. And the R/R is up to spec. I want to think its the ECM but since it doesn't even get power when the key is turned on, it makes me think its the relay connectors. I've removed everything PC, speedo healer. Im just running out of things to check. The manual says there is an open circuit between the bat and the ecm. And there is only 2 wires to check. I really think i need to replace the relay connectors. Where is this sub fuse?
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post #14 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-02-2008, 04:47 PM
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look below....

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post #15 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-02-2008, 04:49 PM
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look below again... sorry, posted before getting my wording right

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post #16 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-02-2008, 06:10 PM
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After looking at the diagrams yes the engine stop relay gets constant power from the battery off of one of the red/white wires regardless of the key position. That 12vdc should then go through the engine stop relay and out on the black/white wire. The black/white wire then goes to a splice point prior to entering the fuel cut relay. From that splice point the 12vdc then goes out to the starting essential such as ignition coils injectors and the ECU gray connector. The fuel cut relay has nothing to do with power getting to the ECU. It just controls power to the fuel pump. So if you are getting power to the fuel cut relay off of both black/white wires, but not getting power to the ECU gray connector on the black/white wire then you have a broken wire or loose connector
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post #17 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-02-2008, 06:20 PM
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From reading you're previous posts though you say you are getting power to the fuel cut realy, so that would leave me to believe that the fuel pump should also be getting power from the brown wire off of the fuel cut relay unless the ECU is providing a ground to the brown/black wire on the fuel cut relay which would cause the relay switch to open and stop the 12vdc from transferring. This could be because the ECU is not getting the 12vdc from the engine stop relay so it is not releasing the ground. Make sure you are getting 12vdc on the black/white wires on the fuel cut relay. post back after you check this out.
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post #18 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-03-2008, 12:04 PM
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Talking of the fuel pump relay, When I had my problem, the fuel pump didn't prime. It wasn't because of the fuel pump or anything ralated to it. Something was wrong elsewhere (injector not plugged in) which the ECU knew was wrong and didn't prime the fuel. I ran a lead from the battery to the fuel pump relay and turned it on to prime it but it still didn't start. I'm guessing no spark or injectors not on, probably both. Then the fuel pump isn't the problem, it is just the audiable sound that tells you that everything is ok. ( or in this case, the lack of the sound says not ok.)

Like scoRRpion says, The power from the battery to the ECU doesn't go through the relays, the +12v line from the battery just connects to the relays also. It is a solid, uninterrupted wire that goes from point to point putting power where it is needed. If you take the relays out, you should still have power at the ECU.

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post #19 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-03-2008, 01:12 PM Thread Starter
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Decope17, I don't get any power to ecu when the key is turn on or off. Power stops red/white at the Engine cut off relay. The shop manual says that there should be battery volage at contact 16 on the light gray connector only when the key is in the on position.

This is whats happening at the engine cut off relay and fuel cut off relay.

When the bike is off. Power comes from the bat and stops at the engine cut off relay. Red/white line.

When key is turn to on. There is battery voltage at the engine cut off relay in three places the bat line red/white, black/white, and solid black. At the fuel cut off relay there is batter voltage at the black/white (wire from the engine cut off relay) and the brown/black.

And again the relays have been taken out and all been tested, and according to the shop manual they are fine. Im going to take a look at my wiring diagram.
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post #20 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-03-2008, 02:56 PM
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So it appears as though from your statement that the switch in the engine stop relay opens when the key is in off which makes sense cause you want your motor to stop working when you turn the key off. It doesn't do a good job of dipicting that in the diagrams.
Still from this when the key is truned to on or run you should have 12vdc at pin 16 of the gray connector on the ECU. If you are not getting that voltage then your black/white wire from the engine stop relay to the ECU is broken. Use an ohm meter or multimeter set in the resistance setting (omega symbol) and put one lead on the ECU pin 16 and the other lead on the black/white wire on the engine cut relay. If you get 0-5ohms then that wire is good. anything higher than that and that black/white wire is broken somewhere in the bundle. If you do get 0-5 ohms also make sure that the black/white wire is not shorted to ground. It looks like there are multiple splice point in the path up to the ECU so there is a good possibility the one of those is bad. Especially since you said your bike would turn off on its own while riding.
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post #21 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-03-2008, 03:12 PM
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That is a classic example of a wire that is broken but will still make contact if it is in the right position. If you don't get continuity on the black/white wire break the trail in half. That black/white wire goes to a whole lot of stuff so you could try to see just how far up the line you get continuity to and then work from there. simply do this by checking for the 12vdc across the other parts that use that black/white wire. Once you find where the 12vdc stops massage the bundle in that area and see if you can get the voltage readings to jump on the meter.
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post #22 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-04-2008, 11:47 PM
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my appologies, you're right. You shouldn't get any power to the ECU with the bike off. All of what you've said about having voltage looks good to what I see on the wiring diagram. If you're not getting 12v on the ECU then you have a broken wire or bad connection. It is near impossible to check all the wires to the ECU w/o that connector thing that is made to make it easy to check. I don't know if you know someone with an '03-'06 600rr but their ECU's will be the same. There is a number on the front and they will be different but it will work. If that doesn't fix it, I'd put on a new wiring harness. I hope your getting somewhere and not frustrated.

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post #23 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-05-2008, 06:31 PM Thread Starter
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Computer

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcope17 View Post
my appologies, you're right. You shouldn't get any power to the ECU with the bike off. All of what you've said about having voltage looks good to what I see on the wiring diagram. If you're not getting 12v on the ECU then you have a broken wire or bad connection. It is near impossible to check all the wires to the ECU w/o that connector thing that is made to make it easy to check. I don't know if you know someone with an '03-'06 600rr but their ECU's will be the same. There is a number on the front and they will be different but it will work. If that doesn't fix it, I'd put on a new wiring harness. I hope your getting somewhere and not frustrated.
OK so i followed all the lines and made sure there was continuity between them. And yes. So I test the ECM again and to my surpize when the ecm is unplugged I get power to point 16 on the connector (key turned on). So i try hooking everything up and wire the fuel pump directly to the bat and try and start. Fuel pump pumps and starter turns. Still nothing. So i follow the steps in the honda service manual and all the ecm grounds are fine, so according to the manual its a faulty ecm. I retested this 3 times as carefully as possible and yes, it seems to be the computer. So i just put everything together and here goes my search for an ecm, when i get it I'll let you know the end result.
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post #24 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-17-2008, 02:55 PM Thread Starter
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Alright, got the new ECM in and still nothing.

New facts include:
-ECM i think is OK, possibility of having 2 ecms not working? not likely
-Ran pump alone and still doesn't start
-No spark
-Netural switch is not grounded, grean wire to switch should be grounded when in neutral and not when in gear. No ground at all.
-replaced start/emergency kill switch with old one, and still nothing

Any ideas, come sunday im going to start working in the manual starting at the plugs.
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post #25 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-23-2008, 08:46 PM
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Having a similar problem

When I turn the key no prime of fuel. If I jump the blk w/ white stripe and the solid blk wires on the engine stop relay (the one with the red and red/wht stripe) it will run all day. Anyone have any idea why? Thanks
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post #26 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-24-2008, 10:56 PM
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oops wrong thread! lol... been reading alot before posting....
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post #27 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-31-2009, 03:18 PM Thread Starter
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OK, So just an update on the bike. I have replaced two parts and still nothing. I purchased a used ECM and wire harness and still the bike doesn’t start. The bike just doesn’t prime and doesn’t start.

I checked what exactly happens with a 1000rr at the fuel cut off relay. As per the 1000rr when the key is turned to ‘ON’ two relays instantly energize. The engine stop and fuel cut off relay. After 3 seconds the fuel cut off relay de-energizes. Right when the key is turned to ‘ON’ (at the fuel cut off relay) a brief surge of voltage (approx 7v as per voltmeter) comes from the ECM, and the other 2 wires show and stay at battery voltage. The brief 7v from the ECM goes to 0v after the relay energizes and the fuel pump primes for 3 seconds. After the 3 seconds the fuel pump wire goes to 0v the ECM wire jumps to 12v and the other 2 wires stay at battery voltage (relay de-energizes).

On my 600rr when the key is turned to ‘ON’ the engine cut off relay energizes but not the fuel cut off relay. Every wire except for the fuel pump gets and stays at battery voltage.

Is this a clear indication that both ECMs are broken? I unfortunately have no way of testing to see if either of the ECMs work. Or is it something else?
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post #28 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-02-2009, 12:21 AM
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It is unlikely to have 2 bad ECMs but it can happen. I will admit that I can't remember all that has been said till this point and I don't have 15 min to read now to catch back up.

I think it is a sensor not connected or a wire broken from a sensor to the ECU.

Even if the bike doesn't start... you can push the start button for 15 sec. and then if there is a code to flash... the ECU will know what it is after 15 sec. of the motor running. ( or at least the starter spinning the motor. ) If there is no code... then something isn't connected.

The only thing I can offer is to come by and help. I have some free time this Sat. but That's almost a week away. Let me know. Let us know if you have a code too.

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post #29 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-02-2009, 10:21 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks dcope, I will try and get a code from doing what you suggested. You said push and hold the start button for 15 seconds and after while holding the button the light will start blinking and show a code. Is it obvious because the light tends to slightly dim on and off while the starter is turning. But i'll give it a try this thursday when Im back at my garage and report back.

Thanks again for offering the help but unfortunitely Im in Canada's Ontario, haha.
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post #30 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-02-2009, 11:13 AM
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Could I just point out, the fact that you removed your alarm.

You say the bike was running before this? - has it run afterwards at all?

The reason I ask why, is because (on yami's & suzi's),
The alarm plugs in directly to the loom using 2 connectors.

On the std wiring,
One of the connectors is unplugged.
The other connector has a plug on it, you remove the plug.
And connect the alarm wiring into the bikes loom using these connectors.

Now that plug the fitters removed! connects the wires together, to allow the bike to run.
Without this plug in or an alarm/immobilser the bike just wont go.

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