Bike won't start when hot threads revisited - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 89 (permalink) Old 02-19-2009, 11:51 AM Thread Starter
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Bike won't start when hot threads revisited

So none of the old threads have a final solution posted from the original poster. All the talk is that this problem is either the battery or the regulator/rectifier. Who has fixed this problem on their bike and what did you do to solve the problem?

I dont ever remember having this issue when my bike was a street bike but I do have it now that it is a track bike. I've tried 2 new batteries, and I have the '05 R/R installed on my bike. No dice, the problem still exists. When it is up around the temperature where the fan will kick on (224*) and you shut the bike off, it wont want to crank over and start until the temp drops back to around 200*. It just acts like you have a dead battery when it tries to crank but the battery is fully charged and good. Is this a starter motor issue?

Brendan
'03 Red/ Black 600RR (Track)
'06 Silver/Grey GSXR 1000 (Street)
http://www.southwestsportbikes.net
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post #2 of 89 (permalink) Old 02-19-2009, 12:07 PM
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I'm guessing that when you say it acts like the battery is dead... you mean when you push the starter button... the starter motor cannot turn the engine.

Check the voltage of the battery while trying to start it when it's hot. If the voltage drops like 10V or below while pushing the starter button... then it's the battery.

If the bat stays around 12V... then it is either the starter motor or a wiring connection. Pull the tank and check the voltage at the starter motor while starting... If the bat is 12V and you're only getting 10V at the starter... it's the wires. If you're getting 12V at the starter too... it's the starter.

So then either the starter doesn't have enough power ( its worn out) or your engine is shot cause there is something dragging when the motor is hot.

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post #3 of 89 (permalink) Old 02-19-2009, 01:15 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah, it's only when the starter button is pushed. Thats my next step taking the voltage at the starter itself.
Engine should be fine. It will bump start just fine when it's hot. Just the starter doesn't want to crank. I do have like 56,000 miles on her so it may be time to rebuild the starter motor.

Brendan
'03 Red/ Black 600RR (Track)
'06 Silver/Grey GSXR 1000 (Street)
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post #4 of 89 (permalink) Old 02-19-2009, 03:38 PM
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First step... check the voltage at the battery while trying to start it. Then on the the starter itself. No sence on pulling the tank off if it may be the battery.

I know you said the battery was good but it's better to go from the start to the end one step at a time. And we need to know the batt voltage then the voltage at the starter itself to know about the wiring. ie battery could be 14V and at the starter it could be 11V 11V at the starter should be sufficient if the Bat is 11V under load.

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Last edited by dcope17; 02-19-2009 at 03:40 PM.
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post #5 of 89 (permalink) Old 02-19-2009, 05:36 PM Thread Starter
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Go figure that with all the fairings off the bike and testing this, it does not want to act up. More tests to be conducted.
What are the chances of maybe getting two batteries that are sub par? On the tests I have done so far the voltages seem to be inline to what you posted.

I'll mess with it some more and report back shortly.

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'06 Silver/Grey GSXR 1000 (Street)
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post #6 of 89 (permalink) Old 02-19-2009, 07:24 PM Thread Starter
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Ok, voltage at the battery hot or cold is 13.2 volts and 12.6 while cranking.
Voltage at the starter is 11.6 volts.hot or cold.
What I noticed is that with the fairings off the bike while doing these tests, the bike will crank slower when hot but is not acting like it does when the fairings are on the bike and there is a bit more heat trapped. With the fairings on the bike the battery acts dead when cranking when its hot. With the fairings off, it just cranks slower but still starts and does not reset the instrument cluster.

How would I test the starter relay?

Brendan
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'06 Silver/Grey GSXR 1000 (Street)
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post #7 of 89 (permalink) Old 02-20-2009, 01:51 AM
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Ok. so when cranking the bike... you have 12.6 on the Bat and 11.6 at the starter. The wires are causing a 1v drop. That sounds like a bit much but I don't think its causing your problem.

But when the bike is acting up... the cluster resets after you try to start it. That is useful info. (very)

Ok a couple of possibilities and I don't know which I think is more likely.

1) Any battery will check good if you taet the voltage with no load on it. ( load meaning something that draws current) Once you put a load on it... you can see if the battery is really good or not. Every battery will drop in voltage with a load. even a new... perfect shape one. Since your checked 13.2 with no load and 12.6 with a pretty significant load... your battery is good. So one theory is the your starter motor could be bad and ( electric motors act differently when they're hot also) it could be putting such a load on the battery that the voltage drops to low to even power the cluster. However... that load would have to be so great to do that... it would probably burn the wires from the battery to the starter. You'd notice that.

2) Now that I wrote the first thing... I think this is a lot more likely to be the problem... A bad connection will cause a voltage drop also. If you hook up a wire with like 20 little strands of wire in it and somehow you only get one of those strands connected... with a small load, everything will work just fine. With a larger load... that one strand cannot pass that much current. The voltage will drop cause that one strand is acting like a resistor... resistors get hot and that strand will get hot. Both will act the same.

Now that I have typed way more than I wanted to... I think you have a bad connection somewhere. Bad enough that when you hit the starter button... the voltage in the bike's system is to low to even run the cluster. The only thing that is throwing me off is, " why only when the bike is hot?" My only guess for now is that In the pits... you prob start your bike before you get on it. On the track while they're cleaning up a crash... you're on the bike when you start it. I don't think the bike being hot is the variable... I think you on it is. and now... the fairing on it is. I'd check the ground wires on the left side of the bike. ( bunch of green wires bolted to the frame) and see if that is loose.

Sorry for the 5 page paper but the more I wrote... the more time I had to think. Try looking at that and next time... I'll try to keep it short. Peace!

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How to fix headlights... Dreamzboy's excellent write-up
https://www.600rr.net/vb/showthread.php?t=138034

Last edited by dcope17; 02-20-2009 at 01:54 AM.
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post #8 of 89 (permalink) Old 02-20-2009, 02:17 AM
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One more thing... this has to be a bad connection close to the battery. A bad connection at the starter motor will not affect the cluster or a bad connection to the headlight will not affect the cluster.

Check the connections to the battery...maybe even pull on the wires and see if the bike shuts off or anything. Lastly... the Neg cable from the battery connects to the frame I believe under the tank/seat area... it attaches to the main frame, not the sub frame. Make sure that wire is tight too.

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How to fix headlights... Dreamzboy's excellent write-up
https://www.600rr.net/vb/showthread.php?t=138034
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post #9 of 89 (permalink) Old 02-20-2009, 12:21 PM Thread Starter
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I had double checked all the green ground wires on the left side of the bike and they are all good and tight. I'll go back and start at the battery and double check those connections and clean up any of the contact points with a wire brush just to make sure it is all getting the best connection it can. The ground connection from the battery to the frame I have not double checked yet.
The 11.6 volt reading at the starter was the lowest voltage shown when I cranked over the motor. It jumped between 11.6 and 12 volts but since the 11.6 was the first voltage read as it cranked over, that what I put in the earlier post.

Brendan
'03 Red/ Black 600RR (Track)
'06 Silver/Grey GSXR 1000 (Street)
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post #10 of 89 (permalink) Old 02-20-2009, 04:58 PM
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I have to look at a wiring diagram and then I can give you some other things to look at. It has to be a connection close to the battery.

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How to fix headlights... Dreamzboy's excellent write-up
https://www.600rr.net/vb/showthread.php?t=138034
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post #11 of 89 (permalink) Old 02-20-2009, 08:31 PM Thread Starter
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From the battery the wire runs to the starter relay and then to the starter itself. There is not a whole lot there for connection points. As you said, the negative terminal just runs to the frame for a ground.

Brendan
'03 Red/ Black 600RR (Track)
'06 Silver/Grey GSXR 1000 (Street)
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post #12 of 89 (permalink) Old 02-22-2009, 09:32 AM
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This may be way off base here, but your problem is very reminiscent of a starting problem I had with the family car one time (Oldsmobile). The thing started like a champ when cold, you could drive it for days on end but if you shut it off and tried to re-start it when hot...well, it would not fire. Through much testing and replacing of parts, it turned out to be the Crankshaft Position Sensor. (I don't know if bikes have this sensor). When the CPS was hot, it would not send a signal to the ECM, but once it cooled down, it would start.
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post #13 of 89 (permalink) Old 02-22-2009, 02:41 PM
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Sounds like a starter to me, I worked at a lawnmower shop for 3 years and seen this several times
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post #14 of 89 (permalink) Old 02-22-2009, 03:24 PM
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Those oldsmobiles have way too many electronic problems. Had an 89 for my first car and replaced most of the electronic system. Starter, MAPsensor, Coil pack, CPS, fuel pump. Died on me every time i left town.

Anyhow, good luck with figuring out the problem. Voltage at the starter doesn't seem rediculously low, a little maybe but the heat and massive inrush current the starter draws could explain that. Electric motors suck mad juice upon start up, especially such a high torque motor, so you're going to have some voltage drop almost no matter what. I'd look more at the starter motor itself and possibly the reg/rect(did you order the 05/06 rect. new or buy used?) seeing as how you've pretty much ruled out the electrical connections and, none of the testing you've done has come back with conclusive results.

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post #15 of 89 (permalink) Old 02-23-2009, 12:34 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosRider View Post
Those oldsmobiles have way too many electronic problems. Had an 89 for my first car and replaced most of the electronic system. Starter, MAPsensor, Coil pack, CPS, fuel pump. Died on me every time i left town.

Anyhow, good luck with figuring out the problem. Voltage at the starter doesn't seem rediculously low, a little maybe but the heat and massive inrush current the starter draws could explain that. Electric motors suck mad juice upon start up, especially such a high torque motor, so you're going to have some voltage drop almost no matter what. I'd look more at the starter motor itself and possibly the reg/rect(did you order the 05/06 rect. new or buy used?) seeing as how you've pretty much ruled out the electrical connections and, none of the testing you've done has come back with conclusive results.

The '05 R/R I got was used from another board member here. I believe the R/R is good and think that with the heat generated and the placement of where the starter is on these bikes that it is possable that it over heats a bit. I'm going to try another starter and see if that helps the problem any.

Brendan
'03 Red/ Black 600RR (Track)
'06 Silver/Grey GSXR 1000 (Street)
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post #16 of 89 (permalink) Old 02-27-2009, 11:16 PM
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i had the same problem last year with my '06. All i did was take off the wires at the starter relay, clean everything up really good, used scotch brite on the terminals, and sprayed the terminals with some battery terminal protectant. Never had any problems since.

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post #17 of 89 (permalink) Old 02-28-2009, 07:44 PM Thread Starter
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Ok, new starter motor installed, all connections cleaned with a wire brush and di-electric grease put on the connections. I ran out of water wetter mix so I'll have to mix more up tomorrow and then I'll test it all and see if it is any better.

Brendan
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post #18 of 89 (permalink) Old 03-01-2009, 08:06 PM Thread Starter
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Ok, the bike is completly back together, fairings and all. I heat the bike up as before to simulate just getting off the track, shut it down, wait 30 seconds, and she fires right back up (unlike before). So I'm trhinking that the old starter motor would not work properly once it was heat saturated. Maybe the brushes are getting a bit worn and with the extra heat it just wouldn't have enough to crank over.

Brendan
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post #19 of 89 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 08:45 PM Thread Starter
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More tests done. The problem seems to be gone now. :hello2:

Brendan
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post #20 of 89 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 10:05 AM
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Yeah, racing!!!! Good job.
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post #21 of 89 (permalink) Old 10-12-2009, 11:34 PM
 
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Ok i have been having the same problem with my 04 RR for a year and a half starts like a champ when cold but after the fan turns on and you shut it off its dead till it cools off the R&R tested good so i was lost for the past year! glad you guys came up with the starter guess that's next on the list to check thanks!
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post #22 of 89 (permalink) Old 10-13-2009, 05:25 PM
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i had your exact problem, i had a thread on here , and when i fixed it i repied with how. turns out it was the regulator. but i had replaced it with a new one. and the new one was bad brand new.. so a starter motor, 2 batteries , 1 bad regulator and half the summer of downtime, its fixed! lol. u can read my thread if it help with all the **** i went thru. good luck
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post #23 of 89 (permalink) Old 11-04-2009, 12:04 AM
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starter

has anyone tried to wrap the starter to help keep it cool. my bike is having the same problem.
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post #24 of 89 (permalink) Old 11-04-2009, 12:06 PM
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Mostly what is has come down to is the voltage regulator. There is a check for it to see if its working but most of the time it functions correctly but only part of the time... it malfunctions.

Wrapping the starter ( I don't think) would have any affect. Most of the heat transfered into the starter comes from the hot motor case that the starter is bolted to.

With your '03/'04 bike... most likely its the regulator. I can't guarantee anything but...

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post #25 of 89 (permalink) Old 11-04-2009, 09:06 PM
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regulator

I guess if I take it to the Honda shop they would be able to check to see if its any good. Thanks for the info.
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post #26 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-18-2010, 11:31 PM
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i changed rec/reg and got new battery
it seems now its charging but still wont fire up until shes cooled down

i need to wait till temp goes down to around 160.

my friend told me that its ignition coil issue and some others told me to change the starter

any ideas?
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post #27 of 89 (permalink) Old 06-07-2014, 08:38 PM
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04 CBR 600rr won't start when hot

Bump for an old thread

I'm bumping this thread because there may be some folks, like myself... who buy a relatively unused 03/04 cbr600rr from an original owner... who tells you about the "bike wont' start when hot" story that he never got resolved.. and just worked around it by sitting and waiting 20 minutes if/when it happened.

This thread is full of so much information, but most of it is downright rubbish. So for anyone who HAS THIS PROBLEM, where the bike starts fine when cold, yet barely cranks and won't fire when HOT, let me clarify the simple fix.. so you don't go down the garden path as posted above in the thread.

1. Starter. First off, this is riduclous to think that the starter gets hot and won't turn. Whomever came up with that, is just dumb.
2. Stator. These bikes have stators that do fail. This has NOTHING to do with the symptoms you would get.
3. Grounds. While maintaining clean grounds is important, this has nothing to do with a voltage drop due to crappy grounds.
4. Battery. This is NOT happening because your battery is crap. Your battery may be crap BECAUSE of the problem, but it's NOT THE CAUSE.

This problem occurs EXCLUSIVELY and WIHTOUT QUESTION as a result of the REGULATOR RECTIFIER. The unit works fine when cold, but does not function correctly once it's hot as hell. When that happens, the bike doesn't maintain enough current back to the battery to keep it fully charged. After extended heat and ride time, the battery is to the point when you turn the bike off, that it does not have the umph to turn the starter.

The bike cooling down and running has nothing to do with the engine, the starter, or the starter cooling down. It has to do with the battery sitting for a bit and the voltage and amperage spiking as it always does when it sits, if it's been discharged down somewhat.

I had to laugh when I read the crap over the internet about this problem. Some folks are as dumb as rocks - and others try to make some complex problem out of one that - if you simply grab a basic multimeter, allows you to figure it in 1 attempt.

Carry on. The answer is now here for everyone to read that may need some assistance.

DO NOT BUY A HONDA OEM REG/REC. Get one from Rick's motorsport.. they are about $150 bucks and designed specifically to be more resistant to temperature due to the CBR location. Installation is about 20 minutes, get some dielectric grease.. and cut back the wire housing to split the two leads for easier and cleaner installation.

Starter motor... what a joke... roflmao.
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post #28 of 89 (permalink) Old 06-07-2014, 08:53 PM
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^ Thank you for this post - I think someone posted up that their new '13 is doing this, and I remembered that this has been an issue before *and* we figured it out, but not what the answer was. This makes perfect sense though.
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post #29 of 89 (permalink) Old 06-08-2014, 03:59 AM
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Good to know. Though the insults were uncalled for.

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post #30 of 89 (permalink) Old 06-08-2014, 02:01 PM
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Good to know. Though the insults were uncalled for.

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You won't get any apologies from me. Between this thread, and other other threads on this forum that I just looked at.. the wasted time and money over stupid suggestions are just shocking.

Pulling coils? Changing starters? Trying to "cool the starter" motor?

If I didn't know better, I'd think half the respondents are trolls just sending folks on a wild goose chase.

How many parts were replaced, batteries replaced, and hours of time wasted while people tried to fix this problem with internet "help".

And the guys who are talking about how they have this happen on their track bike and can't figure it out... holy hell.. if you can't figure this out in about 2 minutes then I don't know what to say.

Search the forum, the myriad of solutions suggested and crap bought to fix it - is mind blowing.

Someone even was told it was because he was riding with his high beams on and the charging system on the RR because it's a "RACE BIKE" isn't enough to keep the bike charged at low RPM's. Really? What a joke.

Last edited by Fritolay; 06-08-2014 at 02:08 PM.
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