Unusual issue electrical? - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-26-2010, 05:31 PM Thread Starter
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Unusual issue electrical?

12,500 is as far as my bike will rev while engaged in gear. Disengaged it will rev to the limiter. Max rpm before redline is 15,000 rpm.

If I dump the clutch in second to wheelie it stops @ 12,500. If I go WOT in any gear it stops @ 12,500. If I accelerate slowly it stops @ 12,500.

When the bike arrives @ 12,500 rpm it will abruptly decellerate as if a kill swith had been activated. Heavy engine braking occurs. The red MIL (malfunction indicator light) will present itself along with the digital FI reading on the gauge cluster. This will last for about three to five seconds. After three to five seconds the indicators will go away and the bike runs normally. I have ridden it over a hundred miles since this began and it runs just as smooth and strong as ever before until I reach 12,500rpm.


The dealership put it on their diagnostic tester to check the computer for codes. There were none stored or presently showing.

The battery is strong at idle and while the throttle is opened up. The service manual states that the secondary fuel injectors are put into use at 5,000rpm so I assume they are fine also. The only reason I am wanting to rule out fuel filter is because whether or not I accelerate quickly or slowly it still happens at that magic number.

I have recently installed 35 watt HID's but they are not causing any unneccesary drain. I recently changed the oil and used a non oem filter for the first time ever. There are no aftermarket parts like exhaust or Bazazz. The bike was recently wrecked (not by me) and laid in a fair amount of water in a ditch. I rode it home from that incident and it was fine mechanically. I was thorough in disassembling things and cleaning up and drying out the areas that were affected. I rode it since reassembling pretty aggressively for a few hundred miles and this was not an issue initially. I first discovered this specific issue during a second gear clutchup attempt while practicing some things in a safe environment.

The service manual hints to some things but relies on the diagnostic tester to provide you with a code in order to not have to go through every single item. Yet, no codes for me.

One of the questions I am searching for an answer to is what is going on in the motorcycle at 12,500 rpm that isn't going on at any other time.... Secondary fuel injectors isn't it according to the manual.

Anyone able to provide some direction with this? Sure would appreciate it.
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-26-2010, 05:41 PM
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man thats weird. i honestly have no idea but good luck to you hopefully its something cheap and simple to fix


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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-27-2010, 11:22 PM
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I have no idea what would keep it from redline except fuel pressure. But that isn't based on "in gear or neutral " It is a combination of engine RPM and throttle position. But just to make sure... You cannot get to redline in first gear even at half throttle or even 1/4 throttle?

If you can't... I'd say to borrow someones ECU and swap to see what happens. The ECU is what sets the rev limiter. THe ECU does know if the bike is in gear or not too so that's why I'm leaning that way.

What year bike do you have?

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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-28-2010, 12:07 AM Thread Starter
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2005 cbr 600rr

You are the second person to say do a swap on the ECM.... Your talking about the engine control module correct? That is what an online service manual names it. ECU/ECM?

I have to find one. Thing is, easiest way for me to do that is buy one and.... trying to be sure of my target before I go pulling the trigger if that is possible this time.


I honestly haven't tried attaining redline in first using only a quarter to half throttle like you said. After doing it a few times in second and third gear I was convinced that it would in all gears so I assumed. I didn't like the idea of doing it at all because it can't be good for the bike. I will go out and check it again though the next chance I get.

Are you suggesting that if the bike does not do this in first gear that it may be fuel related? Less resistance in first gear or something. Like as if in forth and fifth it would do this at an even lower rpm due to the extra workload requiring more fuel?

I have thought about fuel cutoff relay, fuel pump, ignition, ECM. Was hoping there was someone with some similar experience that could help me not throw good money after bad....Some guidance such as you are providing in diagnosing would probably help that also. Any other ideas without having to do a swap? A way to test mine somehow?

I have school tomorrow. Also, a locksmith is attempting to make me a new key by tracing mine, which broke in half in the seat lock yesterday..... So, tomorrow night will be the earliest I get a chance to do as you suggested.

I will get back here soon to let you know what I came up with.

Thanks for your time

Last edited by H lifer; 03-28-2010 at 12:14 AM.
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-28-2010, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H lifer View Post
I honestly haven't tried attaining redline in first using only a quarter to half throttle like you said. After doing it a few times in second and third gear I was convinced that it would in all gears so I assumed. I didn't like the idea of doing it at all because it can't be good for the bike. I will go out and check it again though the next chance I get.
Right with the first gear thing. To get 4th gear to redline... you'd need like 80% throttle or so. Don't worry about redlining you motor. Go to the track and watch 50 different bikes all redlining several times down every straight... and see how many motors crap out by the end of the day.

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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-28-2010, 12:40 PM Thread Starter
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This is a response from another forum in case it has anything helpful to anybody:



First of all, just because you don’t have a code does not mean a sensor is not defective. Keep in mind how the new fuel injection systems works with the sensors. It has everything to do with voltage. A code will not show up if the sensor is still within its limits. An easy way to think of this is, you have a min and max spec for all sensors before a code will indicate an error. Well, lets say that limit is 0.4 – 0.6 volts through a sensor. If the sensor at full throttle should be getting 0.6 volts, but it is really getting 0.4 volts there would not be a code and the bike would still run like ass. In this example, a code would show up if the voltage got below 0.4 or above 0.6. (these numbers are just an example).

You said your bike went swimming for a little while. Well, you could have a voltage drop through a sensor causing your bike to act up only during the point when it requires a higher voltage at the point (or rpm) in time. If you have a voltage drop (or increase) across a sensor then could affect the entire system (fooling it to run different that it really should). Voltage at the different sensor is very critical on the new bikes.

I would suggest looking more into the STVA (secondary throttle valve actuator) and the STP (secondary throttle position) sensor. I am not sure if Honda uses the same terms, but that is what Suzuki calls the parts. Here is my thinking. Have you heard of the different rider setting on the newer GSXR1000’s (A, B, C). Well, the way it controls how much power gets the rear wheel is by controlling the STVA. If you have the throttle wide open, but the secondary throttle valves are slightly closed, the bike will not get as much air through the throttle bodies and your bike will not rev up as much resulting in less power. Now that is to the extreme, but you see my point. Sure there is fuel mapping involved too, but the main restriction is the STV.

Back in 2005-2006 many GSXR’s had defective STVA and throttle bodies were replaced left and right.

I am not sure of the Honda diagnostic tester, but Suzuki’s SDS (Suzuki Diagnostic System) can be hooked up and record all the sensors as you ride it down the street. This is very handle to “map” what the customer’s bike is doing. The bad thing is you have to have “maps” from a stock well operating bike to compare it too and you have to have the skills to read the two “maps”. Side note, dealer have to record there own maps so not all dealers will have stock maps recorded.

If you are not able to test the input and output voltage for the sensors, then you could do it another way. I am not sure if it will work on a Honda, but unplug the secondary throttle position actuator and the bike should go into a safe mode. Check to make sure the secondary throttle valves are completely open and stay open. Go out and ride the bike to see if you can get higher RPM. Keep in mind, your bike may run like ass at lower rpms. Read through the service manual first just to make sure what to unplug and only have one sensor unplugged at a time.

All my thinking is going off Suzuki’s.
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-29-2010, 12:28 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcope17 View Post
I have no idea what would keep it from redline except fuel pressure. But that isn't based on "in gear or neutral " It is a combination of engine RPM and throttle position. But just to make sure... You cannot get to redline in first gear even at half throttle or even 1/4 throttle?

If you can't... I'd say to borrow someones ECU and swap to see what happens. The ECU is what sets the rev limiter. THe ECU does know if the bike is in gear or not too so that's why I'm leaning that way.

What year bike do you have?

Yeah so I took it through gears one through three and it did it in all gears. I didn't need to do it anymore after that I will assume it will be doing it. Half throttle would easily send it to redline if something wasn't obstructing this. Only thing worth mentioning is it did it at 11,500 now. Maybe it was that before and it just imagined it being 12,500. Anyway, I am going to clean the fuel filter and drain the gas if I can. Even though I am thinking electrical. It will be the easiest, cheapest first thing to attempt.

What do you think of this though? ECU? I want to check out the fuel cutoff relay and engine stop relay also.
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-29-2010, 12:47 AM
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Where do you live? Maybe someone from the forum is close to you.after trying that...you could check all the sensors. The service manual goes over every sensor and what the readings should be. This will be time consuming though.

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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-29-2010, 10:21 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcope17 View Post
Where do you live? Maybe someone from the forum is close to you.after trying that...you could check all the sensors. The service manual goes over every sensor and what the readings should be. This will be time consuming though.
Oak Island NC

Yeah it will be time consuming. Thus my reasoning for picking some others brains every chance I get. I will be learning some things along the way also so.......I will let you know how I progress.
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-29-2010, 05:44 PM Thread Starter
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Just dropped it off at the dealer.

No time for messing around right now.

Keep ya posted. Watch it be the fuel filter. hahahaha
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-29-2010, 06:34 PM
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Good luck... hopefully something simple.

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Walk close to Christ today, Walk closer tomorrow

How to fix headlights... Dreamzboy's excellent write-up
https://www.600rr.net/vb/showthread.php?t=138034
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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-30-2010, 08:51 AM
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Interesting that it will rev to limiter in nuetral. Doesnt the ecm have a seperate nuetral map?

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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-30-2010, 09:21 AM
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Had this same exact problem, turned out to be electrical. Backtrack everything electrical you have done and test with a multi-meter.

For me it was hooking up a wire that was not thick enough to carry the amperage at high RPM. I solved it by removing and replacing that wire with a little thicker gauge, that solved my problem.

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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-30-2010, 04:28 PM Thread Starter
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I R FAIL OF THE WEEK!!!!!!

Pinched fuel line. hahahahaha

Learned some things anyway. Sorry and thanks people......

I r jackass
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-30-2010, 04:52 PM
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Wow.. ha ha.. at least it wasnt serious.

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