New tires, less power? - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-12-2010, 10:55 AM Thread Starter
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New tires, less power?

I'm posting this in the section because I'm sure others have wondered why new tires make their bike feel like it doesn't have the same power that it had previously. I just recently went from the stock qualifiers to the Michelin Power Pures. The bike doesn't want to come up as easy as if it has less power. Now I wonder if that's from the extra weight that I added with have more meat on the tires as compared to my old ones that were worn out or does it have to do with my chain being a little bit tighter now. I'm leaning toward the extra weight the rubber added.
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post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-12-2010, 10:59 AM
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ummm the pures are supposed to be one of the lightest tires out there. maybe its the chain and its tightness. ive never noticed what you are talking about before. im on my 7-8-9th set of tires.

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post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-12-2010, 11:04 AM
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Yes you should notice a slight difference, (i know I do, especially going from a worn out 180/55 to a new 190/55)

There are two reasons:

1 since the old tire was worn down it had a smaller circumference, meaning less distance per rotation = the feeling of more power, similar to increasing the number of teeth on the rear sprocket

2 also since the tire is worn down it has less rotational mass which also translates to better accelleration and the feeling of more power

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post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-12-2010, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
I'm posting this in the section because I'm sure others have wondered why new tires make their bike feel like it doesn't have the same power that it had previously. I just recently went from the stock qualifiers to the Michelin Power Pures. The bike doesn't want to come up as easy as if it has less power. Now I wonder if that's from the extra weight that I added with have more meat on the tires as compared to my old ones that were worn out or does it have to do with my chain being a little bit tighter now. I'm leaning toward the extra weight the rubber added.
.

definitely, not the tires.
The PURES are on avg. 1.5 - 2.0 Lbs lighter.
If anything you would feel more acceleration, like most other riders who have switched to Pure.

Sounds like what he said. You may have your chain too tight.

ALSO Check to make sure your rotor/Calipers are aligned up correctly.

If your have drag on your rotors that could also explain it.


.
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post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-12-2010, 11:23 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by HardRacing. View Post
.

definitely, not the tires.
The PURES are on avg. 1.5 - 2.0 Lbs lighter.
If anything you would feel more acceleration, like most other riders who have switched to Pure.

Sounds like what he said. You may have your chain too tight.

ALSO Check to make sure your rotor/Calipers are aligned up correctly.

If your have drag on your rotors that could also explain it.


.
The chain is dead on with the slack adjustment. It was slightly loose before the tires. I know the tires are lighter than other comparable tires such as the Qualifier 2 but what about compared to a worn out oem Qualifier? Just curious. The calipers sound like a good theory. I'll get her up on the stands in a few mins and see what they are like.
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post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-12-2010, 11:33 AM
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Definitely not the tires
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post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-12-2010, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v-tec crx View Post
Yes you should notice a slight difference, (i know I do, especially going from a worn out 180/55 to a new 190/55)

There are two reasons:

1 since the old tire was worn down it had a smaller circumference, meaning less distance per rotation = the feeling of more power, similar to increasing the number of teeth on the rear sprocket

2 also since the tire is worn down it has less rotational mass which also translates to better accelleration and the feeling of more power
ive never noticed this. i wear my tires ut faster on the sides then i do the center. but still have never felt the differnce when i change them. maybe cause when i get new tires, i ride like a bat out of hell.

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post #8 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-12-2010, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by shortstack05 View Post
ive never noticed this. i wear my tires ut faster on the sides then i do the center. but still have never felt the differnce when i change them. maybe cause when i get new tires, i ride like a bat out of hell.



Never noticed it. I don't even notice a difference with track tires, as far as power is concerned.
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post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-12-2010, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by tmcrey1 View Post


Never noticed it. I don't even notice a difference with track tires, as far as power is concerned.
.

Placibo effect.?

.
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post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-12-2010, 12:07 PM
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Who knows. I would think if there was a difference it would be so slight that you wouldn't notice it. But maybe some people have better sensory abilities(?).
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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-12-2010, 12:17 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HardRacing. View Post
.

Placibo effect.?

.
I don't think its placibo effect. Because I expected them to make the bike a little quicker since they market their weight so much. Wheels rotate freely which means the rotors are flowing through the calipers fine. I'm thinking it was because the chain had more slack in it, it would jerk on the sprockets much more harshly.
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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-12-2010, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
I don't think its placibo effect. Because I expected them to make the bike a little quicker since they market their weight so much. Wheels rotate freely which means the rotors are flowing through the calipers fine. I'm thinking it was because the chain had more slack in it, it would jerk on the sprockets much more harshly.

either way, its not possible for a tire to cause a power loss, and lets be real, the amount of weight we are talking between a worn tire, and a new, a q2 vs pure, is hardly going to be noticable, atlesat by a seat dyno


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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-12-2010, 01:30 PM
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In my personal experience I feel a little "drag" if the tire pressure is too low.

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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-12-2010, 01:55 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tenjin View Post
either way, its not possible for a tire to cause a power loss, and lets be real, the amount of weight we are talking between a worn tire, and a new, a q2 vs pure, is hardly going to be noticable, atlesat by a seat dyno
If thats the case then Michelin's whole campaign about their tires being lighter is a wash. I believe you 100%. Its just something isn't the same as the bike was before. My money's on the chain being back to its correct tightness.
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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-12-2010, 02:04 PM
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^ I think that with the loss in rotating mass and loss in circumference on worn tire in comparison to a new tire, there is a "slightly" notacible difference in the feeling of torque delivery

I bet a warn out rear tire is about a pound or more lighter then a new rear tire - plus the rotational mass is at the furthest part from the axle, which compounds the further away it gets.

I definitly felt a difference when I switched from a worn out 180 to a new 190

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post #16 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-12-2010, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by v-tec crx View Post
I definitly felt a difference when I switched from a worn out 180 to a new 190
You changed sizes...(negates the argument in my opinion).
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post #17 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-12-2010, 03:50 PM
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^ it is a good point but most people will tell you you can't tell the difference between a 180 and 190.

my most recent tire change (a few weeks ago) was from completely worn 180 BT016's to brand new 180 Dunlop Q2's and I still felt a bit of a difference... it is noticable harder to power up the front tire in 2nd gear... can I feel a difference in accelleration? No - but I can feel that slight decrease in torque

am I a power wheelie stunting squid? hell no. just saying

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post #18 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-12-2010, 04:04 PM
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am I a power wheelie stunting squid? hell no. just saying
Lol! There's nothing wrong with wheelies as long as you aren't being a danger to someone else. Risking yourself and your property is fine with me. I do wheelies too occasionally. They're too much fun to resist sometimes.

Either way, I don't completely disagree with you guys, because there IS a physics principle there.

I think it acts on the bike differently, but that it doesn't actually change anything. By that I mean, it may feel like it has less power, but it actually doesn't, and the numbers may actually even be different, but those numbers are just conditional anyway.
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post #19 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-12-2010, 05:41 PM
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If thats the case then Michelin's whole campaign about their tires being lighter is a wash. I believe you 100%. Its just something isn't the same as the bike was before. My money's on the chain being back to its correct tightness.
oh, there is a difference, yes, it should allow for better acceleration

but in the case of say, wheelies, not so much as its a function of lifting the bike, not rotating the wheel, this is how a wheelie works, obviously

the bigger difference is when trying to change the lean angle of the tire (ie: fighting gyroscopic forces) where the pures lighter weight

but all that being said, the acceleration factor is a mild improvement


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post #20 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-12-2010, 05:53 PM
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Lol! There's nothing wrong with wheelies as long as you aren't being a danger to someone else. Risking yourself and your property is fine with me. I do wheelies too occasionally. They're too much fun to resist sometimes.

Either way, I don't completely disagree with you guys, because there IS a physics principle there.

I think it acts on the bike differently, but that it doesn't actually change anything. By that I mean, it may feel like it has less power, but it actually doesn't, and the numbers may actually even be different, but those numbers are just conditional anyway.
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post #21 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-12-2010, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v-tec crx View Post
1 since the old tire was worn down it had a smaller circumference, meaning less distance per rotation = the feeling of more power, similar to increasing the number of teeth on the rear sprocket

2 also since the tire is worn down it has less rotational mass which also translates to better accelleration and the feeling of more power
It has to do with both of these and, as someone mentioned earlier in the thread, the mass of the new tire is at the farthest point from the axis of rotation.

Torque = Force * distance

If the engine applies the same torque to the rear axle, then you can determine the force ratio between a new and a used tire. Assuming a new tire (180/55/17) has a radius of 0.3149m and a worn tire (7mm less tread depth) has a radius of 0.31268m, a worn tire will exert about 1.007 times more force on the road than a new tire. I have no idea how perceptible that is, but I don't ever remember being able to tell a difference in power whenever I have had new tires put on.

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post #22 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-12-2010, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by v-tec crx View Post
^ it is a good point but most people will tell you you can't tell the difference between a 180 and 190.

my most recent tire change (a few weeks ago) was from completely worn 180 BT016's to brand new 180 Dunlop Q2's and I still felt a bit of a difference... it is noticable harder to power up the front tire in 2nd gear... can I feel a difference in accelleration? No - but I can feel that slight decrease in torque

am I a power wheelie stunting squid? hell no. just saying
Umm.. there is a huge difference between a 180 and 190 rear tire. Some experts here can argue all day about the 180vs190 difference.

Quote:
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either way, its not possible for a tire to cause a power loss, and lets be real, the amount of weight we are talking between a worn tire, and a new, a q2 vs pure, is hardly going to be noticable, atlesat by a seat dyno



I just switched from a really bald rear tire to a new one, and if anything you should feel more grip.

there is no way you can lose power from new tires of the same size...

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post #23 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-12-2010, 10:43 PM
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A worn out tire will not lose THAT much mass, or circumference for that matter. How much tread depth is between new and worn to indicators?

Most of the tires weight is in the sidewall/cords/carcass.

I will put some worn tires and new Pilot powers on the scale tomorrow at work if I remember.......

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post #24 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-13-2010, 01:35 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by v-tec crx View Post
it is noticable harder to power up the front tire in 2nd gear... can I feel a difference in accelleration? No - but I can feel that slight decrease in torque

am I a power wheelie stunting squid? hell no. just saying
Thats the point I am tryin to make. The bike seems as though it has less torque to bring the wheel up. Still feels as though it accelerates the same as far as I can tell.

Am I a power wheelie stunting squid? No I'm not, like v-tec said I am just sayin.

Thanks for keepin this thread friendly guys. I know its hard not to sometimes but I think its a pretty decent topic of discussion.
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post #25 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-13-2010, 02:24 AM
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Ok, since I don't see anyone that has asked, what is the tire pressure of your front and rear tires?
post #26 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-13-2010, 09:15 AM
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check the air pressure in your tires.
maybe you were used to running a higher psi than these tires run?

softer compounds tend to feel slower....

incorrect preload on bearings...

misaligned axels causing drag on the rotors...

over adjusted chain tension...

.....or someone stuffed a sock in your air box :D

so since its most likely a drag issue...keep an eye on your temp and see if its running higher than usual.. see if you get less gas mileage....those two would indicate a definate problem somewhere....at least confirm your paranoia.. and when all else fails...ride it until the problem makes itself clear lol.
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post #27 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-13-2010, 09:44 AM Thread Starter
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Ok, since I don't see anyone that has asked, what is the tire pressure of your front and rear tires?
32 front and rear


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Originally Posted by sean80 View Post
check the air pressure in your tires.
maybe you were used to running a higher psi than these tires run?

softer compounds tend to feel slower....

incorrect preload on bearings...

misaligned axels causing drag on the rotors...

over adjusted chain tension...

.....or someone stuffed a sock in your air box :D

so since its most likely a drag issue...keep an eye on your temp and see if its running higher than usual.. see if you get less gas mileage....those two would indicate a definate problem somewhere....at least confirm your paranoia.. and when all else fails...ride it until the problem makes itself clear lol.
Checked the wheels, they are lined up perfectly, the chain still has plenty of slack in it, well what it is supposed to have in it. No socks in my box lol. Temps are dead perfect. 95 degree weather and it runs 170 to 178 while riding. My gas mileage actually went up about 10 miles per tank from the switch.
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post #28 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-13-2010, 11:10 AM
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hmm.. if the temps arent hotter and the mileage is better... might be a mental thing lol...

rpm/mph running the same as before? not sure where these bikes get their rpm/mph reference from... if it were a car i'd be of more help :/ how much power loss are we talking about? might just be coincidental and be a something non tire related..
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post #29 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-13-2010, 11:22 AM Thread Starter
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hmm.. if the temps arent hotter and the mileage is better... might be a mental thing lol...

rpm/mph running the same as before? not sure where these bikes get their rpm/mph reference from... if it were a car i'd be of more help :/ how much power loss are we talking about? might just be coincidental and be a something non tire related..
One of my buddies has an 06 cbr 1000. Occasionally when I ride with him I will look over at his speedo and see mine is running about a mph less than him at constant speed. I will check it again next time we go out. I'll also compare it to my gps speedo on my droid. Definitely not a mental thing. There is something that makes this thing not want to clutch up in second like it did before. As well as power wheelies. I'm not one to ride down the interstate on the back tire in between cars or other squid like things. I'm just sayin something is not the same.
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post #30 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-13-2010, 02:35 PM
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damn youre in SC too? lol.. sucks huh. hmm... get gas from a diff station? might just be poor quality gas.... unless someone swapped your rim out for a diff one accidently at the shop and you got someones crappy sprocket lol.. i dont really work on bikes....i work on cars for a living so im just tryin to compare general problems that ive seen happen on cars...clutch feel ok?
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