Throttle on off snatch-jerky throttle problem - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 114 (permalink) Old 08-24-2010, 08:26 PM Thread Starter
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Throttle on off snatch-jerky throttle problem

Hello. I appreciate your page very much. It helped me a lot with some questions i have about my bike (600 rr 03)
Therefore, i read too many articles about the snatchy throttle problem and i always wanted to shout out my opinion and help some others, because there are a lot of things that there aren't been told.
First of all, i have 45000 km, im not sure if it's in my mind, but i thing when the bike was newer, the jerky problem wasn't so obvious. Anyway, i tried all these things to make it softer because i can't stand it anymore:

1) I tried tight of loose the chain. The default is 2.5cm, i tried 1cm, i tried 4cm, no difference.
2) I checked the rear rubber cush drives, there are in perfect condition with no slack.
3) I tried changing the front sprocket because i thought it had a bit more gap than that is needing and i put an genuine one -no difference
4) I tried getting the slack out of the throttle cable, or giving some millimeters of slack on purpose -no difference
5) I tried oiled the throttle cable and put grease between grip and clipon to be more accurate -no difference, plus the grease was a bad idea, it's harder to control the throttle when you are braking, it had become extremely sensitive.
6) I tried editing the grip in the place that throttle cable holds. In default is round, i rasp it so to open more slow in low rpm -no difference, still jerky
7) I tried changing the outer clutch. It was a bit worn and had a bit gap, the new one still have a gap (smaller of course that the old one) NO DIFFERENCE (from that point on i start thinking of putting on fire the cursed CBR)

epilogue:
I have the motorcycle 5 years and it wasn't my first motorcycle. Please don't say "you must be more gentle with your hand" i am gentle. I drove SO MANY SUPERSPORTS and mine is worst of all, so SURE there is a problem. Plus, i always can open softly the throttle. the problem is that is A RACE BIKE. So i want to open the throttle IN THE RIGHT MOMENT, when i point to the apex. A second later (that's the time needed to open the throttle smooth without the bike jumps out like it has hiccup) leads to 2 seconds slower exit from the turn. So "keep practicing" and "be more accurate" are not answers and don't help.
Also, i read somewhere here, "use a gear up". No. It's a race bike. In some turns i must go with 2nd, no with 3rd. Im supposed to do a lap time or not?
So answer "a gear up" does not makes sense and don't help.
Plus, others say that in low rpm is jerky and in high not, because "it's a race bike". False. If the bike does not absorb the gap in low rpm, imagine what happens to high rpm! Danger!
Also, some guys said that put a pc3/pciii/power commander 3 and did not help. The gap is a gap, the way the trottle opens doesn't change anything.
My thoughts ended. I don't know from this point on what to try. If anyone thinks that he can help, it will be acceptable from me and from many users having this problem.
And before i forget it, some people say "use the clutch". NO
i drove zx6r 07, zx10r 07, gsxr 07, z750 06, hornet, fz6, fz1 and soooo more i can't remember. THEY ACT LIKE NORMAL BIKES and there are smooth in the off-on process. The clutch is not a solution. You don't cut your head if your tooth hurts (Greek proverb)
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post #2 of 114 (permalink) Old 08-25-2010, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by gizaha View Post
I tried tight of loose the chain. The default is 2.5cm, i tried 1cm, i tried 4cm, no difference.
First off, over tightening the chain can cause serious damage. I wouldn't advise doing that again. Second, have the chain under tensioned will exacerbate your problem as it allows more backlash through the drive train, and if the chain jumps off it doesn't end well.

Have you tried shifting at a higher rpm? Contrary to what you have said I find it is smother.

At 45,000km you may just have a worn gearbox, if the gears don't mesh quite as well as they used to then you will have more backlash and a higher likelihood of that 'jerky' feeling when you ride it.
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post #3 of 114 (permalink) Old 08-25-2010, 08:12 AM Thread Starter
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First off, over tightening the chain can cause serious damage. I wouldn't advise doing that again. Second, have the chain under tensioned will exacerbate your problem as it allows more backlash through the drive train, and if the chain jumps off it doesn't end well.

Have you tried shifting at a higher rpm? Contrary to what you have said I find it is smother.

At 45,000km you may just have a worn gearbox, if the gears don't mesh quite as well as they used to then you will have more backlash and a higher likelihood of that 'jerky' feeling when you ride it.
Of course i knew it already. I had overtight the chain only for a few minutes, just to check. I tried shifting at a higher rpm. Ok, it's smoother but comparing with other bikes, it's unridable for racing use. You choose, slow or jerky. I understant that maybe i have a work gearbox but my use of the motorcycle it was extremely soft all these years. The problem is not the gap, but the way it is absorved, and in my case, it's not. The solution is one, sell (or give free) the bike because im bored to hell 5 years now, there weren't one single day that this bike was fun. Only pay thousands of euros for nothing. That's why there aren't so many 600rr 03-04 anymore. Any other ideas?
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post #4 of 114 (permalink) Old 08-25-2010, 09:02 AM
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Wear through the gearbox is the only thing I can think of that isn't rider error so I'm out.
Interesting idea with the throttle though.

Maybe Demented can give you something else.
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post #5 of 114 (permalink) Old 08-25-2010, 09:44 AM
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I'm not sure but what about the injectors? wouldn't a restriction there cause a momentary hesitation until there was enough pressure to push through the gunk?
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post #6 of 114 (permalink) Old 08-25-2010, 10:00 AM
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Possibly, but that wouldn't be noticed as a jerking but just a lack of power, it also wouldn't reoccur every time.
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post #7 of 114 (permalink) Old 08-25-2010, 04:06 PM
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Throttle position sensor?

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post #8 of 114 (permalink) Old 08-25-2010, 04:32 PM
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Wear through the gearbox is the only thing I can think of that isn't rider error so I'm out.
Interesting idea with the throttle though.

Maybe Demented can give you something else.
Damn you man.

With no DTC faults showing and a properly tensioned chain, and no obvious signs of transmission damage, there is only one cause of jerkiness on this and any other bike.

I too have this problem sometimes, and it's a simple fix. The problem is the nut that connects the screw on the right side to the seat. Either that or your chain is just too damn loose. I'm going to go record a video to better explain what is going on here.

TPS sensor issues would throw a DTC, and would not be jerky.
Fuel Injector issues would through a DTC. Even clogged fuel injectors would not cause a jerkiness, but an overall lack of power.
A fuel pump wouldn't cause jerkiness, because it can only supply x amount of fuel, and the bike will not rev past a certain point if it doesn't have the fuel to.
Any timing sensor issues would throw a DTC and not let the bike run.
post #9 of 114 (permalink) Old 08-25-2010, 04:54 PM
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Properly lubed and adjusted chain. Stock gear ratio.

You're going to see chain lash from the fluctuations in RPM's even when the bike is idling. This will cause a jerkiness feeling.
Something I don't advise anyone to do, but I also revved the engine some to show you how the chain lashes back when you change the throttle input.
The engine wants to slow down, but the rear wheel wants to keep spinning. Both will get into a fight with each other of one trying to spin faster then the other. When the rear wheel wants to spin faster, the chain will seem like it has much more slack in the actual driving portion of the chain, but when the engine wants to spin faster it tightens up that slack.

Piss poor throttle control and clutch control will cause this to happen when riding. It can happen at high RPM's, can happen at low RPM's. When it happens to me, it's from me letting the RPM's drop too much when shifting down low and not getting on the gas enough to keep accelerating.
If it doesn't rain tomorrow I might get a video of the chain moving when riding, just to show you even better.

No amount of mechanical changes, other than a slipper clutch, will fix this problem. Don't blame the bike, blame yourself. Proper throttle control and clutch control will solve the problem.
post #10 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 04:26 PM Thread Starter
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wait wait wait... because from what im seeing, you started saying gibberish again...
i will say it for the last time. THE CHAIN IS PROPERLY LUBED AND ADJUSTED. Got it? Ok, so we go on:
First of all, i liked the idea from Demented for the nut that connects the screw on the right side to the seat. I will check it. Also i believe that might be the silent blocks of the motor (if there are any).
For all the others, i will say again the same thing: The problem IS NOT THE GAP. All motorcycles (with chain or not) have gap. The problem is the way it's absorved! And no, the ECU works just right, with no lag, errors or something. Good sense of gas in your hand.
Another thing because i saw user Demented upload a video, my bike is a CBR 600RR 2003. Your model is more smooth from what i read in forums.
So what we have? Injectors, chain, throttle position sensor, fuel pump REJECTED SOLUTIONS. There are all just fine.
And i will say it again, IT'S NOT MY FAULT or my hand's fault. I rode to many bikes and found all of them absorving the gap. I gave my motorcycle in all my friends and ALL of them agreed that there is a gap that making hard the driving of my motorcycle. Some day i must record a video of this for you to watch, so to be more specific
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post #11 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 04:31 PM Thread Starter
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Not to forget. I am doing very good wheelies, so i believe that my throttle control is far more accurate than average driver's. Also i have thousand of driving hours in city or out of the city, plus that i work as a delivery boy
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post #12 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 04:32 PM
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wait wait wait... because from what im seeing, you started saying gibberish again...
i will say it for the last time. THE CHAIN IS PROPERLY LUBED AND ADJUSTED. Got it? Ok, so we go on:
First of all, i liked the idea from Demented for the nut that connects the screw on the right side to the seat. I will check it. Also i believe that might be the silent blocks of the motor (if there are any).
For all the others, i will say again the same thing: The problem IS NOT THE GAP. All motorcycles (with chain or not) have gap. The problem is the way it's absorved! And no, the ECU works just right, with no lag, errors or something. Good sense of gas in your hand.
Another thing because i saw user Demented upload a video, my bike is a CBR 600RR 2003. Your model is more smooth from what i read in forums.
So what we have? Injectors, chain, throttle position sensor, fuel pump REJECTED SOLUTIONS. There are all just fine.
And i will say it again, IT'S NOT MY FAULT or my hand's fault. I rode to many bikes and found all of them absorving the gap. I gave my motorcycle in all my friends and ALL of them agreed that there is a gap that making hard the driving of my motorcycle. Some day i must record a video of this for you to watch, so to be more specific
The nut that connects the screw on the right side to the saddle is the rider. IE, the problem is you.

But, what type of freeplay is there in your chain? Though regardless of it being properly adjusted or not, if there is a problem with your riding, you'll feel the backlash of the drive train. The model year doesn't matter, since an internal combustion engine that is an L4, of 600cc, on the same firing order that drives a chain, will operate exactly the same.

But fine, if you don't want to listen, I wont help. If everything checks out fine, what are you expecting the problem to be, other than yourself?
post #13 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 04:46 PM
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The nut that connects the screw on the right side to the saddle is the rider. IE, the problem is you.


:crac kup:



I know I am the problem, hahaha good one D
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post #14 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 04:48 PM Thread Starter
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The nut that connects the screw on the right side to the saddle is the rider. IE, the problem is you.


But fine, if you don't want to listen, I wont help. If everything checks out fine, what are you expecting the problem to be, other than yourself?
Im listening everyone but im sick reading again and again the same solutions such as "ohhhhhh it's your chain" or "be more smooth with your hand" or "use a gear up". Probably YOU don't want to listen because i said that i have drive other bikes and others drove mine. Im not the only that im seeing this problem. Anyways, my chain has the 25mm slack (as the bike, the owners manual and the service manual suggests). As i told, i tried with 15mm (I KNOW IT'S DANGEROUS, it was only for 2 minutes) and with 40mm. That didn't make any difference. For once again, it's not the gap, it's the way it's absorved.

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Originally Posted by Demented View Post
If everything checks out fine, what are you expecting the problem to be, other than yourself?
I expect the problem to be something like worn outer clutch, worn rear gush rubbers, worn gush rubbers of the motor (if there where) or something related with ABSORVING vibrations. Something worn and have some loose that must not be, causing this hit when i open the throttle and the upper side of the chain tights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demented View Post
The model year doesn't matter, since an internal combustion engine that is an L4, of 600cc, on the same firing order that drives a chain, will operate exactly the same.
With this knowledge and beliefs, really, you thing you can help?
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post #15 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 05:28 PM
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Have a look at ur cush drive rubbers. Take the rear wheel off. The rear sprocket carrier should fit fairly snug into the wheel with the rubbers in place.
Take a look at ur swing arm pivots and bearings...
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post #16 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 05:34 PM Thread Starter
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Have a look at ur cush drive rubbers. Take the rear wheel off. The rear sprocket carrier should fit fairly snug into the wheel with the rubbers in place.
Take a look at ur swing arm pivots and bearings...
Nice thinking, but as i say in my original post, i already done this, there are perfect
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post #17 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 05:38 PM
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Im listening everyone but im sick reading again and again the same solutions such as "ohhhhhh it's your chain" or "be more smooth with your hand" or "use a gear up". Probably YOU don't want to listen because i said that i have drive other bikes and others drove mine. Im not the only that im seeing this problem. Anyways, my chain has the 25mm slack (as the bike, the owners manual and the service manual suggests). As i told, i tried with 15mm (I KNOW IT'S DANGEROUS, it was only for 2 minutes) and with 40mm. That didn't make any difference. For once again, it's not the gap, it's the way it's absorved.


I expect the problem to be something like worn outer clutch, worn rear gush rubbers, worn gush rubbers of the motor (if there where) or something related with ABSORVING vibrations. Something worn and have some loose that must not be, causing this hit when i open the throttle and the upper side of the chain tights.


With this knowledge and beliefs, really, you thing you can help?
Ok, the least you could do is spell properly. It would make trying to help you so much easier.

A worn clutch wouldn't cause this to happen, though you already said you replaced parts of the clutch.

You stated the Kush drive is good, so we know the problem is not in the rear wheel.

You say your chain tension is fine, so we know it's not the chain.

You say you replaced the front sprocket, so surely you also replaced the rear sprocket and chain too to not have any abnormal wear, though a front sprocket wouldn't cause an issue like this.

You say you adjusted the throttle free play, though free play wont cause this problem, as there is no freeplay in the throttle when you're on the gas. Free play will come into play when you're off the throttle, giving some room for the throttle tube to be rotated more even though it's fully closed, so the problem is not there.

You say there are no FI or check engine lights showing, so we know the problem is not with an electrical aspect of the bike.



So, this is what we have left for problems.
1) Improperly adjusted chain. I have no way of knowing if you're adjusting your chain correctly or not.
2) The problem is you cannot hold a steady throttle or have issues smoothly rolling off the throttle.

I fail to see what you having owned and ridden 5 other bikes has to do with this problem, because this is not one of those 5 other bikes. The problem is either you or you have something adjusted incorrectly. Then again, I don't know what this gap is you're speaking of. You mention the term gap but use it in multiple places.


But again, you're saying the problem is in the off and on action of the throttle, which points at problems of throttle application. Perhaps both you and your friends who have ridden the bike are not used to the gearing that you have on the bike. Gearing will change how power is delivered to the rear wheel, by either making it less steep or more steep of a gear ratio. By gearing down, where you get up on the revs faster but it's an overall slower gear (top speed is less), you will experience chain and transmission lash even more than you would on another gear ratio, due to the ratio.

Also, if it's causing you a 2 second loss on the exit of each corner, again, that points to an issue with the drive train or you, as if a mechanical problem was that bad to cause a 2 second loss when getting on the gas, you'd be hearing noises and possibly be having parts of your engine flying out of the cases.

Are you absolutely sure you know how to ride this "race bike" on the track? Having ridden other bikes and being a courier doesn't train you to know how to ride on a race track. Are you having the clutch in as you're going to the apex of the turn? Why are you completely off the throttle and not holding a steady throttle as you're in the turn? Improper riding like that will cause the upper portion of the chain to go slack, and once you get on the gas, the bike needs to take out that slack before power is actually being driven to the rear wheel.

When you are on the gas, the engine is pulling the chain, which pulls the sprocket on the rear wheel. This force is transmitted on the upper portion of the chain, whereas the underside is merely just flowing along and is slack. When you're decelerating and you are not on the gas, the rear sprocket is pulling the chain which pulls the sprocket on the engine. This puts slack on the upper portion of the chain and has the driving force on the bottom.

I'm 100% confident that this is your problem, which is attributed to again, either an improperly adjusted chain or lack of smooth throttle control.
post #18 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 05:46 PM
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Just a thought...primary gear cushions???? Tdub

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post #19 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 05:57 PM
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This thread sounds & read very similar like that other thread some member was complaining about the bike being too jerky.

The jerkiness is common in all 600RRs. Honda hasn't fixed it. They've claimed they did when they announced the redesigned RR back in '06-'07 but it's still there. It's very noticeable in the lower RPMs.

But if it's happening to you in the higher RPMs (never happened to me but then again I'm slow...LOL!) maybe get a different bike?

BTW, who are these "many users" experiencing the same issue?
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post #20 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 06:18 PM Thread Starter
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big text for nothing, but no problem. In most of the text, you were describing how the motorcycle works. I know, im not a newbie. Anyway. First of all, i said that i replace the "outer clutch" not the clutch (discs). It has springs on it that were a bit worn (at 42000 km). It's job is to absorve. Never mind.
1) Sorry i use the word "gap" but i can't find another word describing the gaps (or clearances) that are from crankshaft, till the rear wheel (gearbox, motor gears, chain etc).
2) As for chain, how hard can it be to adjust it? You think i'm such an idiot?
3) I didn't say that i'm a race driver, i just said that i have good throttle control.
4) Really, you pull the clutch in every turn? In every apex? Ok, it works as a solution but I'm not accepting something like that. Other bikes doesn't needed to
5) Im not completely close the throttle entering a turn. I close it a bit, so i have a slight engine braking (entering a turn). This cause the upper of the chain to loose (and the lower to tighten) and in a specific distance, i must slack this upper loose so to accelerate slightly for targeting the apex. There are 2 ways to get this slack quickly (opening softly or 2 times throttle) but if you can't get it in time, then you must try again while lean up the motorcycle opening your line, because you predict to accelerate but you missed the chance. That's all, you accelerate too late in exiting the turn, that costs second(s). If you are more hard, you will open the throttle more quick and raw causing the snatch and it's dangerous when you are in extreme lean angles.

I asked many engineers, they agreed that cbr is a lot jerky (especially comparing with other bikes) but they insist that it's normal and you can't change it.

Sorry for my bad English again.
As for user Tdub, what is primary gear cushions?
User Nemesis, there are 2 or 3 similar threads in this forum for this. If you google it, you will find more people having this problem.
Anyway, i can't explain it easy with words, some day i must upload a video (comparing bikes too) to be more specific
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post #21 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 06:28 PM
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Back in '03-'04, don't quote me on this but I recall there was a problem with the PCIII that cause some issues with the RRs. So they came out with a new version. Maybe this is the problem?

Are you running a PCIII? If so, tell them your problem. You can also do a search on this forum and try to find that thread. That is if the thread dating that far back is still in their archive.
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post #22 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 06:37 PM Thread Starter
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Back in '03-'04, don't quote me on this but I recall there was a problem with the PCIII that cause some issues with the RRs. So they came out with a new version. Maybe this is the problem?

Are you running a PCIII? If so, tell them your problem. You can also do a search on this forum and try to find that thread. That is if the thread dating that far back is still in their archive.
No i don't have a PCIII
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post #23 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 06:38 PM
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The primary gear cushions are much like the sprocket cushions, but they are located on the primary gear which is on the backside of the clutch basket. Some bikes use springs, some use rubber cushions. Tdub

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post #24 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 06:41 PM Thread Starter
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The primary gear cushions are much like the sprocket cushions, but they are located on the primary gear which is on the backside of the clutch basket. Some bikes use springs, some use rubber cushions. Tdub
Oh i get it. That's why i replace the outer clutch (mine has springs). Same result, 150 euros (190 dollars) for nothing
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post #25 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 06:51 PM
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are you going completely off the throttle in the corner?
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post #26 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 06:57 PM
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are you going completely off the throttle in the corner?
Oh man, you just had to go there. LOL!




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post #27 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 06:58 PM Thread Starter
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are you going completely off the throttle in the corner?
No but there are some rare cases such as, let's say, Valencia's first turn. In this case, you come with 6th gear and need to brake hard. 5th, 4th, 3rd, maybe 2nd. Then from hard braking, you must lean and suddenly open the throttle and do them gently.
Anyway, NOT closing the throttle is NOT a solution. There are cases, even with low speeds in city, especially in downlills, that this jerkiness ruins the whole driving. Sometimes i use the clutch but i don't want to warm/worn the discs for no reason
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post #28 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 07:01 PM
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Oh man, you just had to go there. LOL!













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post #29 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 07:03 PM
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Have you ridden other '03 RRs? If so, are they doing the same thing? Cuz if it ain't you know it's your bike, and maybe you should just step away and buy a new bike.

Problem solved.
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post #30 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gizaha View Post
No but there are some rare cases such as, let's say, Valencia's first turn. In this case, you come with 6th gear and need to brake hard. 5th, 4th, 3rd, maybe 2nd. Then from hard braking, you must lean and suddenly open the throttle and do them gently.
Anyway, NOT closing the throttle is NOT a solution. There are cases, even with low speeds in city, especially in downlills, that this jerkiness ruins the whole driving. Sometimes i use the clutch but i don't want to warm/worn the discs for no reason



ahhhhhhhh, I get that too, especially downhill,


how jerky is it?


you really should get on that video, so we can see what you are talking about,
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